cameron chaos 0 Report post Posted October 31, 2005 There's always debate about what makes a truly classic and praise worthy match. More recently there have been disputes about what should and shouldn't be considered five star/classic matches, so I was curious what people feel a match of this caliber should have/not have. In my opinion a classic match should have lots of action, spots or moments that are well built up or create a sense of uncertainty as to who will win, feature believable offense (as best as pro wrestling can achieve) and make sense as the match continues (working over a body part for 90% of the match should not lead to a roll up finish IMO), good selling, a sense of prestige and all involved working to the best of their ability to involve the crowd in the match and bring about genuine interest or emotion from them. A good build up to promote the match can also be a factor as it can add to the story the match tells (if it is a matter of pride, the match should last a long time with neither wrestler wanting to take a pin, if one wrestler is "injured" the other should work the limb over to the point you almost feel sorry for the "injured" person, etc). It should not have blown spots, obvious spot calling, long lulls in action or overuse of restholds, moments that involve you to suspend disbelief too an unreasonable degree (Shawn Michaels kipping up after being beaten down), moves used for the sake of flash, no selling and it should not be predictable from bell to bell. So, what in your opinion makes a classic match? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianGuitarist 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Well, great storytelling results in more memorable matches, I'd say. Having said that, the ME of Wrestlemania's 3 and 20 were hardly stellar wrestling matches, but I remember them more than any other matches in history. So, I'm going to say a great pace, preferably a different style of wrestler(wrestlers), maybe a few spots, and some really close near-falls. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Misawa, Kobashi, etc... They all make, or have made, 5 star matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest *KNK* Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Misawa, Kobashi, etc... They all make, or have made, 5 star matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm looking around for this ***** Benoit match, care to direct me to it? Benoit has a trophy case of ****-****3/4 matches but no *****. I've only given a couple NA matches *****. I value the honor and prestige of a legitimate ***** match, which is why I won't so easily reward a match with it. What does it take to qualify for that status? A simple logical story that is told through a series of complex range of emotions, situations. Nothing contrived, a sense of purity. Everything is built upon something, every single movement has a cause and effect. No idle moments. Intensity must be read in the eyes of the workers, drawing us into their story and capitvating us. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianGuitarist 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Misawa, Kobashi, etc... They all make, or have made, 5 star matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's actually another intersting point, accidentally. I think we're more likely to label a match as five stars if the characters are beloved as opposed to two nobodies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest *KNK* Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Misawa, Kobashi, etc... They all make, or have made, 5 star matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's actually another intersting point, accidentally. I think we're more likely to label a match as five stars if the characters are beloved as opposed to two nobodies. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wouldn't dare put CM Punk in the same sentence as Flair, Benoit, Misawa and Kobashi but CM Punk has a ***** to his credit, something alot of talented workers cant claim. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ravenbomb 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Misawa, Kobashi, etc... They all make, or have made, 5 star matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm looking around for this ***** Benoit match, care to direct me to it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Benoit vs. Raven from Souled Out 98 Benoit vs. Angle from Wrestlemania 17 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hunter's Torn Quad 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 You do know that ***** means five stars and isn't a profanity in disguise, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest *KNK* Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Misawa, Kobashi, etc... They all make, or have made, 5 star matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm looking around for this ***** Benoit match, care to direct me to it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Benoit vs. Raven from Souled Out 98 Benoit vs. Angle from Wrestlemania 17 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What's funny about that is, Those matches wouldn't even crack A top 10 "Best of Benoit" list (Maybe WMX7 but it would questionable and ranked low) and yet, you listed them @ five stars. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wildpegasus Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Passion is the #1 thing that makes a wrestlsing match 5 stars. After that it's the ability to look natural in the ring henceforth making the match as believable as possible for a wrestling match. The other important ingredient is the ability to manipulate peiple's emotions by your actions inside the ring. I have watched a ton of wrestling matches. From everywhere. I've been an addict for 16 years and I have yet to see a 5 star match. I refuse to give a match 5 stars because I always believe that a match can be topped. That being said if someone can justify it I'm okay with people giving a match 5 stars or another person not calling the same exact match 5 stars. As long as it's within reason. These are but only some of the absolute best matches I've seen that would come close to 5 stars Stan Hanson vs Kobashi 7/93 Dynamite Kid vs Tiger Mask 4/21/83 Benoit vs Sasuke J Cup 94 Lyger vs Ohtani 3/96 Bret vs Austin Wrestlemania Thunderqueen AJW vs JWP Hokuto vs Kandori Dreamslam Kobashi vs Misawa 1/20/97 Hasegawa vs Yamada 3/93 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pochorenella 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Misawa, Kobashi, etc... They all make, or have made, 5 star matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm looking around for this ***** Benoit match, care to direct me to it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The question wasn't aimed at me but allow me to chime in. I'm no Meltzer or Keith but IMO these Benoit matches I'd consider *****: Benoit vs Sasuke, Super J Cup Finals Benoit vs Angle, Rumble 2003 Triple H vs Michaels vs Benoit, WMXX I know many consider his Owen Hart Tribute match with Bret to be ***** but not me. Also *KNK*, being that you've only given a couple of NA matches your highest grade and one of those being a CM Punk match (with Samoa Joe I presume), I ask you which one of their series do you give this rating? I've seen all three of them (if there are more I'm unaware of it) and I'd say the one from Joe vs Punk II is the best one, although I wouldn't give it *****. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest *KNK* Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Misawa, Kobashi, etc... They all make, or have made, 5 star matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm looking around for this ***** Benoit match, care to direct me to it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The question wasn't aimed at me but allow me to chime in. I'm no Meltzer or Keith but IMO these Benoit matches I'd consider *****: Benoit vs Sasuke, Super J Cup Finals Benoit vs Angle, Rumble 2003 Triple H vs Michaels vs Benoit, WMXX I know many consider his Owen Hart Tribute match with Bret to be ***** but not me. Also *KNK*, being that you've only given a couple of NA matches your highest grade and one of those being a CM Punk match (with Samoa Joe I presume), I ask you which one of their series do you give this rating? I've seen all three of them (if there are more I'm unaware of it) and I'd say the one from Joe vs Punk II is the best one, although I wouldn't give it *****. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ***1/2-WTC *****-II ****1/4-AS2. (They had a couple other matches but weren't significant) People need to start putting Joe on these lists with Flair, Benoit, Kobashi, Misawa, Hart etc. Joe has cranked out some of the best work in the world, much less NA in the last 2 years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Black Lushus 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 I thought there was a different Benoit/Angle match that people put over their WM 17 match...like at one of the Rumbles...03 maybe? Am I incorrect? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest *KNK* Report post Posted November 1, 2005 The 2003 Rumble match is often considered Kurt Angle's best work and the best edition of Benoit/Angle's lengthy series of matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 Let's keep this thread grounded, and remember that the entire 5 star match scale bullshit is all just based on personal opinion. What is a 5 star match to one guy, might not be to someone else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lil' Bitch 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 A 5 star match should also have great selling and a clean finish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humanoid92 0 Report post Posted November 1, 2005 (working over a body part for 90% of the match should not lead to a roll up finish IMO), <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I've never understood this argument. In the context of a wrestling match, working over a body part is a smart strategy for a wrestler to use, but it doesn't mean it should always work. To me, if every match featuring somebody working the knee ended with a submission to the Figure Four, that would make things less "realistic". Sometimes things happen out of nowhere. Just because there is a specific body part that is targeted doesn't mean that should become the ONLY way to win. Roll up finishes aren't always cheap. In some cases, they fit perfectly for a match. It shows that the match can end at any time. Bret/Owen, Bret/Bulldog, and Savage/Steamboat are a few classic matches that all ended with various pinning combinations instead of a dangerous finishing move. I think they're all ***** I like it when pinning combinations and transition or set up moves score pinfalls because it makes following matches more dramatic. That's what started to turn me off about wrestling in the late 90's. All of a sudden, the big finishing move and/or intereference were the only way matches would end. Where's the suspense in that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slabinskia 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2005 Star ratings are all opinions.For example,I give bret/austin from wm ***** for many reasons.It is also my favorite match.Does that mean it is set in stone as a 5 star match ?No,it just means that I think it is a 5 star match.Others I give ***** to are flair/steamboat clash of champions misawa/kobashi vs kawada/taue 6/9/95 hansen/kobashi 7/93 misawa vs kobashi 1/97 flair vs windham battle of the belts bret vs austin ss96 malenko vs guerrerro hostile city showdown foley vs hbk mind games btw,while benoit/angle from the rumble is the popular match in their series,I think their unforgiven 02 match is very underrated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Copper Feel 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2005 (edited) The 2003 Rumble match is often considered Kurt Angle's best work and the best edition of Benoit/Angle's lengthy series of matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "Often considered" yes, but the long term selling wasnt there, and the Ankle Lock to Crossface reversal sequence was mind numingly stupid. Wouldunt break *** for me. Id say the best Angle match ive seen was against Austin at Sumerslam 2001. Edited November 2, 2005 by cyber mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ravenbomb 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2005 Ric Flair, Chris Benoit, Misawa, Kobashi, etc... They all make, or have made, 5 star matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm looking around for this ***** Benoit match, care to direct me to it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Benoit vs. Raven from Souled Out 98 Benoit vs. Angle from Wrestlemania 17 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What's funny about that is, Those matches wouldn't even crack A top 10 "Best of Benoit" list <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I disagree Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Corey_Lazarus 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2005 The 2003 Rumble match is often considered Kurt Angle's best work and the best edition of Benoit/Angle's lengthy series of matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "Often considered" yes, but the long term selling wasnt there, and the Ankle Lock to Crossface reversal sequence was mind numingly stupid. Wouldunt break *** for me. Id say the best Angle match ive seen was against Austin at Sumerslam 2001. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I actually enjoyed the Anklelock/Crossface reversals, as it showed both men had so much pride in their own chosen finishing holds that neither wanted to win with anything else at that point. Every time one went for their chosen move, the other had a counter for it until Angle finally said "fuck this" and sat down with the Anklelock, making Benoit tap. Angle/Benoit from Rumble '03 is the closest thing to a true ***** match I've seen. Keep in mind that I don't import tapes so I haven't seen ANY Misawa/Kawada (though this WILL change soon, as my friend Chris is interested in importing tapes of Brock in Japan), and yeah. Another match I'd say comes close to ***** that I've seen/love would be Raven/Saturn vs. Benoit/Malenko from Spring Stampede '99. A lot of drama with a few different styles of work in the match (Raven's brawling, Saturn's blend of martial arts and technical wrestling, and Benoit/Malenko bringing the pure technical madness), and so much emotion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ravenbomb 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2005 The 2003 Rumble match is often considered Kurt Angle's best work and the best edition of Benoit/Angle's lengthy series of matches. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "Often considered" yes, but the long term selling wasnt there, and the Ankle Lock to Crossface reversal sequence was mind numingly stupid. Wouldunt break *** for me. Id say the best Angle match ive seen was against Austin at Sumerslam 2001. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I actually enjoyed the Anklelock/Crossface reversals, as it showed both men had so much pride in their own chosen finishing holds that neither wanted to win with anything else at that point. Every time one went for their chosen move, the other had a counter for it until Angle finally said "fuck this" and sat down with the Anklelock, making Benoit tap. Angle/Benoit from Rumble '03 is the closest thing to a true ***** match I've seen. Keep in mind that I don't import tapes so I haven't seen ANY Misawa/Kawada (though this WILL change soon, as my friend Chris is interested in importing tapes of Brock in Japan), and yeah. Another match I'd say comes close to ***** that I've seen/love would be Raven/Saturn vs. Benoit/Malenko from Spring Stampede '99. A lot of drama with a few different styles of work in the match (Raven's brawling, Saturn's blend of martial arts and technical wrestling, and Benoit/Malenko bringing the pure technical madness), and so much emotion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, that was really close to ***** for me, too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJ Johnson 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2005 What is the "actual" list of ***** matches? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest *KNK* Report post Posted November 2, 2005 What is the "actual" list of ***** matches? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is no official list. Everyone has their list. Some are just more credible then others (Meltzer over SK for example). Some people throw 5 stars for tons of matches and some are very picky about it and believe the "perfect" rating shouldn't be given so easily. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJ Johnson 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2005 Hence the quotes around "actual". I probably should have just said the Meltzer list, since that's what I was looking for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest *KNK* Report post Posted November 3, 2005 I only know his NA ***** from the last 15 years but they are WarGames 91 and 92 HBK Vs Razor-WMX Owen Vs Bret-SS94 Bret Vs Austin-WM13 HBK Vs Undertaker-HIAC Samoa Joe Vs CM Punk-Joe vs Punk II Kobashi Vs Joe- Kobashi Vs Joe Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rendclaw 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2005 Wargames from 91 and 92??? He must have been drunk, high, or both. 87 blows both of those matches out of the water, because the buildup to it was downright masterful. You had the Horsemen at the top of their game and trying to take out Dusty before Wargames, you had them trying to destroy Nikita DURING Wargames, and you had the Road Warriors just being themselves. I know that I have said that my love for that match is very high, but the storylines surrounding both matches from 87 went way beyond what the ones in 91 and 92 did. Its like NBA Dream Team 92 being the gold standard for any Dream Team that was to follow. It just couldn;t be topped. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rendclaw 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2005 Wargames from 91 and 92??? He must have been drunk, high, or both. 87 blows both of those matches out of the water, because the buildup to it was downright masterful. You had the Horsemen at the top of their game and trying to take out Dusty before Wargames, you had them trying to destroy Nikita DURING Wargames, and you had the Road Warriors just being themselves. I know that I have said that my love for that match is very high, but the storylines surrounding both matches from 87 went way beyond what the ones in 91 and 92 did. Its like NBA Dream Team 92 being the gold standard for any Dream Team that was to follow. It just couldn;t be topped. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Mandarin 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2005 I just watched War Games 1991 and I feel it doesn't hold up much. This year's Elimination Chamber was better, IMO, in terms of wrestling, drama and everything. Haven't seen 1992 though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest *KNK* Report post Posted November 3, 2005 Wargames from 91 and 92??? He must have been drunk, high, or both. 87 blows both of those matches out of the water, because the buildup to it was downright masterful. You had the Horsemen at the top of their game and trying to take out Dusty before Wargames, you had them trying to destroy Nikita DURING Wargames, and you had the Road Warriors just being themselves. I know that I have said that my love for that match is very high, but the storylines surrounding both matches from 87 went way beyond what the ones in 91 and 92 did. Its like NBA Dream Team 92 being the gold standard for any Dream Team that was to follow. It just couldn;t be topped. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I only know his NA ***** from the last 15 years but they are Read closer before you go into your "this was better" rant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
