This week in the NBA

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

You know, i think that Nash's improvement over the past few weeks has been alot because of Diaw. The bascially have a point guard playing center and powerforward for them. I saw his talent when he played in Atlanta, but apparently the Atlanta management didn't.

As I recall (and my pops is a Hawks fan; folks live in Riverdale), the talk about Diaw was that the Hawks management saw Diaw as a player with talent, but no heart.

[Rendclaw 0]

Larry Brown is like TO in the way that he does and says things strictly to get attention.

 

This is definitely one of the more ridiculous comparisons I've ever seen here.

 

Are you going to explain why you think so, or just leave it at that?

 

 

On another note, I was watching NBA Fastbreak last night, where they were drawing comparisons between old school players and tandems with their supposed modern day counterparts:

 

Wade and Shaq = Magic Johnson and Kareem.

 

Nash and Amare = Stockton and Malone.

 

Kobe and Odom = Jordan and Pippen.

 

Thoughts?

[Precious Roy 0]

 

Larry Brown is like TO in the way that he does and says things strictly to get attention.

 

This is definitely one of the more ridiculous comparisons I've ever seen here.

 

Are you going to explain why you think so, or just leave it at that?

 

Does it REALLY need an explanation? Larry Brown would be more like the equivalent of modern Bill Parcells (rebuilds Pats, leaves. rebuilds Jets, leaves. Rebuilding Cowboys, sure to leave sooner than later). He's flighty, we know that, but he's NOTHING like T.O.

 

TERRELL OWENS?!?!?!?!

[Precious Roy 0]

Man, I still can't get over what a retarded comparison that is. Call me when LB calls Joe Dumars a homo and starts doing situps in his driveway

[The Czech Republic 0]

Call me when LB calls Joe Dumars a homo and starts doing situps in his driveway

What a mental picture that is

[Guest]

Oh my fucking goodness can this team be any fucking worse than possible and by some insane shit they have a chance to win.

[Precious Roy 0]

That was some of the lamest acting and one of the worst calls I've ever seen. Just awful.

[Guest]

Yeah, but I'm not complaining. This team is flatout disgusting to watch.

[Precious Roy 0]

And Kobe fouls out! Justice!

[Guest]

Sadly, this is probably the best game they've played in 2 weeks.

[Guest]

What a fluke 3.

[Ripper 0]

Larry Brown will definately throw other people under the bus when the losing starts.

 

When the Sixers lost to Lakers, it wasn't because he didn't adjust his lineup after game one or that he was intent on play George Lynch despite him missing practically the entire playoffs and not playing well in the finals. Its because Allen Iverson missed some practices earlier in the season.

 

Team USA didn't lose last year because Amare Stoudimire, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade and Carmelo Anthony were sitting on the sidelines. Its because the selection committee didn't give him a team that could win and the players weren't adjusting to international play.

 

When the Pacers missed the playoffs after that horrible Mark Jackson for Jalen Rose trade, it wasn't because the team lost their floor leader. Its because the team didn't work hard enough in the off season (then oddly they traded to get Jackson back and the team when to the West finals the next year)

 

Detroit wasn't haveing a tough time in the regular season last year because Brown was playing the starters to death (like Ben Wallace all but said) it was because the players not playing hard.

 

New York wasn't struggling more at the beganning of this year because all the young, energetic talented rookies were on the bench the majority of the game...NOOOO. It was because the team wasn't playing that hard.

 

I can do this all day with Larry Brown. Nothing is EVER his fault when the team doesn't do well, and THAT doesn't rub management the right way. I wouldn't be suprised if alot of these job changes aren't exactly Larry wanting to leave moreso than the team telling him they are tired of it.

 

Plus, TO has never openly talked about going to a nother team while in the playoffs with his team. At least he has THAT much respect.

[jwpeer 0]

Larry Brown is an ass.

 

I can't dispute that...but i have to dispute the olympic thing (Somewhat, the young players should still have been playing)

 

The selection comittee did choose the wrong players. They had no shooters. No Michael Redd for the most significant snubb, hell I hate him but J.J. Redick could have helped them, or Kyle korver. In the international game you NEED spot-up shooters, it's just how the game is played, the drive to the basket game just doesn't work well. You also need strong defensive players who can get a hand in the face of the opposing spot-up shooters

 

You have a team of tim Duncan, Elton Brand, LBJ, Michael Redd, Kyle Korver, J.J. redick, Dwyane Wayde, Amare Stoudemire, Larry Hughes, Gilbert Arenas, Brad Miller and Bruce bowen and then you win. All those guys would have gone to the olympics, and that's a team constructed to win. I absolutely hated the way they chose that team. It made me ill seeing how poorly designed it was. Just terrible.

 

 

BUt Larry Brown still should have played the younger guys. Other than duncan none of the vets played worth a crap during the olympics.

[Brett Favre 0]

 

[Precious Roy 0]

When the Sixers lost to Lakers, it wasn't because he didn't adjust his lineup after game one or that he was intent on play George Lynch despite him missing practically the entire playoffs and not playing well in the finals. Its because Allen Iverson missed some practices earlier in the season.

 

He said after the Finals that the reason they lost was Iverson missing practices during the regular season? He drew a direct line from one to the other? Yeah, I'm gonna need a source on that one, because it sounds like bullshit.

 

Also, "because he didn't adjust his lineup after game 1"? Game 1 was the one game they DID win, in large part because Mutombo played out of his mind. I don't know what you remember about that Philly team, but it wasn't exactly teeming with depth, what adjustments was he supposed to make? Mutombo came back down to earth, started getting in foul trouble, and that was that. LA was just a much, much better team that year.

 

Team USA didn't lose last year because Amare Stoudimire, Lebron James, Dwayne Wade and Carmelo Anthony were sitting on the sidelines. Its because the selection committee didn't give him a team that could win and the players weren't adjusting to international play.

 

Already addressed. I watched every team USA game that year, they didn't adjust AT ALL to international play, and they didn't have the right makeup on that team. Defenses collapsed all over Duncan because nobody on the team knew how to catch and shoot. Carmelo and Amare didn't play much because when they were in the games they weren't doing shit. Odom adapted pretty well to olympic game on both ends, thus he got most of the minutes at the 4. Amare was Duncan's main backup. D-Wade was giving good defensive pressure, seemed pretty lost on offense at times, but he was playing 15-20 minutes a night. LeBron should have played more, but Jefferson and Marion earned minutes, and playing LeBron alone wouldn't have changed the fact that it wasn't a very good team, just a collection of talented NBA players. Like jwpeer said, the team needed more shooters/passers, more traditional back to the basket post players, and less iso/slasher types. Redd and Brad Miller should have been no-brainers. Man, ANY analyst who watched the games will tell you that. Brown was telling it like it is, and he didn't slag on the team he was given til after the Olympics, simply addressed the struggles the team was having.

 

When the Pacers missed the playoffs after that horrible Mark Jackson for Jalen Rose trade, it wasn't because the team lost their floor leader. Its because the team didn't work hard enough in the off season (then oddly they traded to get Jackson back and the team when to the West finals the next year)

 

Brown didn't make that trade, did he? Donnie Walsh was the GM. What is Brown supposed to do, let his entire team off the hook in the media and say the one guy they traded made all the difference? "Oh hey guys, y'all can just chill out this offseason, because Action Jackson's coming back, he's gonna do all the work and everything will be fine!" Do you know anything about how coaches motivate their players? I'd ask for a source here too, but I can actually see Brown making that statement, because it makes perfect sense.

 

Detroit wasn't haveing a tough time in the regular season last year because Brown was playing the starters to death (like Ben Wallace all but said) it was because the players not playing hard.

 

It's funny that everyone is on the "Brown wore out the team!" bandwaggon. Looking at the stats under Flip, the starters are playing, on average, about two minutes less per game, 1:30 here. 2:30 there, etc. 2 minutes out of 48. Prince's minutes have gone up. If the Pistons lose in the playoffs this year, will it be because Prince was played to death? From what I saw the Pistons looked really fucking good in the playoffs last year, and had turned it up several notches compared to early in the season. They sure didn't play like a worn out team. It couldn't just be that they lost to a great opponent in a really close series, could it? A series they easily could have won if a shot falls here, or doesn't fall there? No, gotta assign blame, it had to be somebody's fault!

 

New York wasn't struggling more at the beganning of this year because all the young, energetic talented rookies were on the bench the majority of the game...NOOOO. It was because the team wasn't playing that hard.

 

Again, do you REALLY expect a coach to come out and say that? What is this, fucking amateur hour? The veterans weren't playing hard or smart, and he needs them on board for this team to go anywhere. He floated it out to the media that he wasn't happy with their energy level. After they didn't respond he started playing the guys who he knows will work hard, because nothing is guaranteed for them. It's a dose of reality for the vets, one that doesn't work if you don't let them go out on their own and fail first. It's already working, as after the kids started showing they could play guys like Marbury, Q-Rich and Crawford started walking the company line. Again, do you know anything about how coaches motivate their teams?

 

And as far as Brown publically discussing leaving the Pistons in the playoffs last year, that never happened. Get your facts straight. What happened was he was approached by the Cavs and expressed a degree of interest, but told them he wouldn't negotiate until after the year, and that got leaked. Once the media got a hold of it they turned it into a circus, which is out of Brown or anyone's control. You make it sound like Brown came out at a post game press conference demanding a trade.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Precious Roy

[Precious Roy 0]

Oh, and George Lynch had DNPs in games 1, 2 and 3, and played 8 and 6 minutes respectively in games 4 and 5, so you're just pulling shit out of your ass there

[Guest]

Why is Scottie Pippen on the set of NBA Shootaround?

[The Electrifyer 0]

The Raps @ Hawks game has got to have the most empty arena I've ever seen.

[Rendclaw 0]

Man, I still can't get over what a retarded comparison that is. Call me when LB calls Joe Dumars a homo and starts doing situps in his driveway

 

By saying that, you proved my point for me. TO has been doing this kind of shit for years, to draw attention to himself. The incident in Dallas, coming within inches of calling Jeff Garcia gay, the sharpie, the pom poms, so on and so forth.

 

Larry Brown did a lot of the same things throughout his career, starting back at UCLA, if I remember right. He is insecure about himself in some way, and says and does things to draw attention to himself. I'm not even talking about his dancing from one coaching position to another, even though thats a part of it.

 

There was blame on both sides when he was here in Detroit, but his flirting with the Cavs and then lying about it, then everything involved with the Knicks and his departure from the Pistons smacks of the same thing.

 

You really should ask for clarification before you call something someone says retarded, kid. You may not agree with it, but coming out and insulting such a statement speaks to your maturity, and it doesn;t speak well of it. If you want to debate, fine. X and I got into it earlier this year about Kobe, so I don;t argue with him anymore.

 

I know you are a fan, Roy, but there isn't a need to be such a homer. Not here, anyway.

[Precious Roy 0]

Comparing TO to Larry Brown is a POORLY CONSTRUCTED comparison. Is that better?

 

And don't call me kid, old man.

 

Now, onto more important things.

 

Larry Brown didn't LIE about the Cavs contacting him to anyone who actually mattered, way to twist the facts. HE TOLD THE MEDIA "NO COMMENT," said he wouldn't discuss anything til the season was over. That's a huge difference. Joe Dumars knew what was up, it wasn't the public or media's right to know at that point in time. And it was them being entered into the loop that caused the biggest distraction. Was Brown wrong to even entertain the Cavs' offer? Probably, but it's not like he was really getting down to negotiations or anything, it was a flirtation, and if it hadn't leaked it would have been harmless. Plus, the Pistons had already decided that Brown wasn't coming back, and Brown knew that.

 

And he wasn't in any negotiations with the Knicks til after the Playoffs, so I don't see what that has to do with anything. The Cavs were the team that contacted Brown during the playoffs, not the Knicks.

 

I'm not a homer, Brown's been coaching my team for a month, he's done nothing to endear himself to me yet, I'm just seeing a lot of BULLSHIT being floated out here about the guy. Just noticed you're from Michigan. Bet you loved Brown when he won that trophy for your boys, didn't you? Now you're buying into all the Detroit hate, all the media spin, first in line to slag him. Who's the homer?

[Rendclaw 0]

Actually, kiddo, I live in Michigan. I'm not from here. Big difference.

 

I don;t hate LB, though I dislike what he did. As I said in my previous post, there was plenty of blame to go around regarding his departure from the Pistons, though I choose to lay the lion's share of it at his feet.

 

After he says all of these things about how he wants to stay in Detroit and coach the Pistons then goes back on that, how he then said that he doesn;t know if he can keep coaching because of his health and then jumps at the Knicks job at first opportunity, then on top of that tries to play the "poor little me" card when he was asked by Dumars and ownership if he can make a commitment to the Pistons and could not give a straight answer and they got rid of him, most Detroit fans who have a much deeper vested interest in the team than I ever could think he is the scum of the earth.

 

My take on it is that things could have been a lot smoother if he had been more honest about his latest dalliance with the Knicks, but he is what he is, and that is how he operates. Everyone knew going in that at some point he was going to jump ship, but one would think that after winning a championship and coming within nine or ten minutes of winning a second, he might want to stay and garner more success, but no. Piston fan is bitter about that, perhaps rightfully so.

 

Myself, I got into the Pistons because I appreciate defense in a league where at times it can be at a premium. They are more of a throwback to the great teams of the 80s, where both offense and defense were played for 60 minutes straight, and the ninth or tenth guy on the bench could go for 15 points. That and I am huge Ben Wallace fan, and have been since he was in Orlando. I love that they won a championship and did it by learning from a coach like Larry Brown, but the man isn;t the devil in my eyes, unlike a lot of people around here. I just won;t hesitate to call him out for what he has done and probably will do in the future. Big difference.

[The Czech Republic 0]

The Raps @ Hawks game has got to have the most empty arena I've ever seen.

You know, New Orleans had some damn empty arena shots last year. This year they are selling out in Oklahoma City. In addition, they, while not good by any stretch, are markedly improved from last year's crap. Think they're gone?

[Guest Vitamin X]

X and I got into it earlier this year about Kobe, so I don;t argue with him anymore.

 

We did? Wow. I don't even remember any of it. Guess that says something about "messageboard maturity" (I know, I know, oxymoron) or whatever. I argue with a lot of people about Kobe, it comes with being a Laker fan, especially on these forums.

 

You have to admit though, comparing Larry Brown to T.O. IS pretty asinine, Brown doesn't draw nearly enough media attention to himself purposely as Owens has and does. But I'm assuming you'll probably try arguing that point, which is impossible because there's just no proof. Whatever Brown has done, it's stayed firmly on the side of rumors and speculation, and not him outright going out and doing silly, immature things.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Vitamin X

[King Kamala 0]

The Raps @ Hawks game has got to have the most empty arena I've ever seen.

You know, New Orleans had some damn empty arena shots last year. This year they are selling out in Oklahoma City. In addition, they, while not good by any stretch, are markedly improved from last year's crap. Think they're gone?

 

Knowing about George Shinn they just might be. Although Oklahoma City seems like one hell of a boring city to put an NBA team in.

[Ripper 0]

Damn roy, that is long. I will respond, but I am not doing the quote thing because..well...fuck that quote thing.

 

1: After the finals, Larry Brown said something along the lines of "They were just the better team because they did the right things to be winners. There are just somethings you can't do and expect to win the championship. You can't have Allen missing practices during the year and expect to come in and beat this team."

 

Yes, he basically drew the line from the team losing to Allen Iverson missing practices. He did the same thing again later and it led to the infamous "Pratice?" press conference from Iverson, only that time Brown suggested that he would have Allen traded.

 

And you are right, Lynch was not the one I was thinking about in that finals. It was actually Jumaine Jones being a worthless slug and leaving players open for threes along with Aaron Mckie. What adjustments could be made? The back court of Raja Bell, Allen iverson and Eric Snow played incredibly well and the back court of Aaron Mckie/Iverson/Jones played horribly. The NATURAL adjustment is go with the lineup that works, but instead Brown stuck with the same lineup that allowed the Lakers back into that game one victory and they got smoked the rest of the way.

 

Would they have won? Probably not, but that played a bigger part in them losing than Allen missing a practice 3 months earlier.

 

2: I always hate the "any analyst" line crap. Its always like a person is suggesting you are a idiot for seeing something different. And if you are saying that Amare didn't do anything while he was in there, I have to question if you watched at all. He put up better stats than Lamar Odem in 7 minutes against Australia. Which of course lead to brown to cut his minutes in the Lithuania game. He finally played good minutes in the Angola game had 9/6/and 3 blocks.

 

And what the hell was Lebron James doing playing only 2-3 minutes. What moment did Stephon Marbury show that he deserved the most minutes out there? People keep talking about the team and blah blah blah, but bottomline, they didn't get smoked in the olypmics. They lost by 8points to argentina. Yes, they could have had a better team out there, but they could have also won with the one that they had.

 

Traditional post players don't work in international play by the way because of the collapsing D(which is what they did against Duncan) which is why Amare's face up and quickness against the slower bigs was working so well when he did play. Lebrons size and ball handling at the 3 postition also was a next to impossible matchup for anyone in international play plus their length would have served them better in defending the 3 than the shorter guards (marbury and iverson). Brown simply didn't utilize the talent that he had, but not once did he discuss the possibility that maybe he could have done something different in his coaching approach. The ONLY reason the team lost in some tight games was because of the team that was put together, not coaching. Well, lets be honest here. Anytime your team can keep the game tight, it comes down to coaching and execution because they obviously had the talent to stick in there with the other teams. That USA team still could have won the gold by untilizing the freaks of nature in Lebron and Amare over there on the sideline, yet they just weren't used.

 

3: Yes, Brown pushed for that trade thinking that Rose would be a point forward to mirror Scottie Pippen in Chicago and get them over the hump. Walsh didn't even like the trade but Brown was king. The trade was disasterous and killed all of the team chemistry and led to no playoffs. Now I get what you are saying. you can't just praise Mark Jackson. But you don't get in the media and say your teams lack of effort is the reason for losing when you know fucking well that your bright idea didn't work and thats why the team was losing. This had nothing to do with motivation. This had everything to do with Brown saying "Don't blame me...its someone elses fault." Mike Woodson and Byron Scott didn't blame lack of effort for their disastorous years last year, and they didn't blame the lack of talent, they still motivated their teams despite dismal records and THAT is how a coach motivates a team.

 

4: Larry Brown came back from hip surgery last year and kept blasting his team for lack of effort. "I can't coach effort" "I never thought that I was going to have to coach effort" "They showed no effort out there" when Ben Wallace finally blasted back at Brown in the media for playing the starters too many minutes, plus the long practices and not using the bench (the BENCH which is one of the biggest reasons they won the championship the year before BTW). It came from the players mouth after he was tired of getting blamed for losses by a coach that could be doing something to prevent it. Its not me making it up. This is what THEY said.

 

And with that finals with the Spurs. It wasn't Chauncy Billups calling players for ben wallace, the WORSE offensive player on the floor to get the ball in the post. That was coming from Brown. He put Prince on Duncan. He called horrible offensive sets in that game. Not once have you seen him shoulder even the slightest bit of blame for that loss. All he said is that "They played harder than us and wanted it more" which once again is a shot at the players on the court playing and pushing the blame.

 

5: There you go again with the "motivating players" crap. This is the NBA. You earn your spot. Brown came in and was going to start the vets no matter what. Crawford had a great preseason, Frye was obviously the best front court player they had and Lee was obviously deserving a starting spot but instead, brown did his "I don't play young players" crap that he always does. How is a guy knowing that he is out performing other guys ahead of him and they haven't done anything to justify their spot motiviating the players? If anything it is discouraging them. You are realistically making a argument for not putting your best team on the court? Thats not motivation. You coach and play to win, and that is not what was on the court to start the season for the Knicks.

 

6: Brown called a press conference to deny the Cavs rumours. That IS PUBLICALLY talking about it. It was rumors being reported, and he felt it was necessary to call a press conference when he should have been getting his team prepared for games in the playoffs. Since you went to the "any analyst" thing earlier, then you should remember basically every analyst critisizing him for creating a distraction for his players. He could have just gone to his players, told them its not true and to ignore it and moved on. Instead, he called a press conference.

 

What I am saying about Brown is this. I don't think the guy is evil or anything, but he NEVER EVER admits that maybe he could have done something differently to win games. Its ALWAYS his players effort or they didn't execute the plays well enough or I don't have the talent, as talented young players sit on the bench. Every other coach I have ever seen recognizes that sometimes they didn't put their team in the best postition to win the game. Brown either doesn't believe that he has ever done it or has some issue where he has to look flawless and every situation. I hate it when players always pass the buck and I hate it when a coach does and that is what Larry Brown does. He only passes the buck.

[Brett Favre 0]

[mike546 0]

If only he scored more often.

 

Frye continues to be a beast though. And what the fuck was up with Browns rotation last night? Maurice Taylor and Jackie Butler getting big minutes?

[Precious Roy 0]

And I say so what? He's a great coach. His players always praise him, even the ones he has little spats with. He's got a public persona, he's got an ego, he's a little eccentric, big deal, a lot of great coaches are like that. The older ex-players especially. He gets on his guys, he gets them to shoulder the blame when things don't work? Yeah. You know what else he does, he gives them all the credit in the world when things do work, unlike some coaches who alienate their players with arrogance and aloofness.

 

Traditional post players don't work in international play by the way because of the collapsing D(which is what they did against Duncan)

 

A traditional post player is an axis. Traditional post play is the foundation of international basketball. I'm not talking about guys getting the ball, backing down, and making a move. That's NBA post. I'm talking about a presence down low, or at the high post, that allows you to pass the ball in and out. It's the only way to beat a zone defense, where the post is most valuable as a facilitator of offense, rather than an initatiator. Duncan can do that, he's great at that, but that's where the lack of shooters comes in. In the Olympics the defense would collapse on him, because they knew when he threw it back out the US perimiter players would dribble drive, which gives them time to recover. I saw a lot of US guys driving into congested lanes, biting the trap that other teams were setting. No pure shooters to keep the D honest, guys like Iverson, Marbury and Wade always have to dribble a bit and step into their shot.

[Rendclaw 0]

I have to agree about pure shooters. When Michael Redd said no, I felt at the time that our chances of winning a gold medal went down significantly. You need at least two on a team to have any success at all in international play. It didn;t matter who was coaching the team at the time, if you don't have a shooter to extend the defense, you are just royally screwed, since all they have to do is collapse a little bit and make the driver/slasher's job a nightmare, which is pretty much what happened.

 

And yes, I did question some of Larry Brown's coaching moves at the time, because they just didn;t make much sense. LB has forgotten more about the game of basketball than I will ever know, but if he has an achilles heel its that he can be incredibly stubborn about his coaching practices, and sometimes makes adjustments only after its too late.

 

But on the other hand, our chances to win in the Olympics were pretty much minimized when players started barking about being paid to play. All you had to do was look back to '92 when we sent our best to take on the world and they *wanted* to do it. I downloaded the Dream Team 92 biography and I was in awe about how not only the greatest players of the era came together, but also how they played as a true team.

 

I don't know how we are going to regain our dominance of the sport, and no matter who is coaching the team our chances are 50-50 at best. The world has been catching up to us for a long time now, and they might have actually caught up in '04.

 

By the way, excellent points, Rip. You saved me from doing some homework in order to make my own points in this debate.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Rendclaw

[The Electrifyer 0]

 

 

I love these hoops .gif animations. Where do people get these at?