Shelton Benjamin v. Trevor Murdoch

[Guest SavageRulz]

re: Racism.

 

I truly believe that Vince McMahnon would push an albino martian to the moon if it meant ratings and money. Vince has showed time and time again that he will do anything for the shake of entertainment (ie: ratings and buyrates) so I don't think he would hold anyone back because of race.

 

Wrestlers have to be team players and can't stay on top forever. They have high points in their career where they get put over, and low spots where they have to return the favor and put others over. It is a very important part of the business that I think many fans can't understand.

 

On a side note: I heard Cade and Murdoch are broken up and there are plans down the road to promote Murdoch with Dustin Rhodes to revive his Daddy's Texas Outlaw's gimmick. I would love to see a Dusty heel turn and manage an outlaw stable. The downside is that visions of the new Blackjacks are dancing in my head. Dusty was a termendous heel that many have not seen, I really think there is gold in the prospect of it.

[Angle-plex 0]

Flair/Shelton at Backlach 04 was fucking awful, thanks to Shelton not using his brain and screwing up the story of the match (Flair working on Shelton's leg to keep him from doing his high risk moves) by not-selling Flair's earlier leg work (making it pointless) and doing his ridiculously over-the-top moves anyways. In fact, I'd challenge anyone to show me one good Shelton performance (individual performance, not match - and the HBK match was almost only Michael's performance). Maybe if he used his brain instead of just doing athletic moves I could buy him being the future of the company.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Concidering your comments regarding Benjamin. I must ask, what the fuck do you know? How can you judge someones career and ability on one match? Making severly crappy match assesments does not justify why Benjamin isn't a bright star. He's had more top matches then most of the main events of this year. Hell he even performed better at WM 21 then either main event matches.

 

Concluding statement, Benjamin=future. Get used to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You keep attacking my argument while not backing up your own. Shelton has NEVER used his mind in any of his matches, only his "cool" spots like the "hold my foot and then spin it around and back into your face" nonsense. He's had ONE good match (vs Michaels). WM21 wasn't a good performance at all - it was a spotfest. How could that even be considered good? Austin at WM X7 is the definition of a good performance because he uses facial expressions and plays to the crowd more perfect than I've ever seen. Has Shelton ever once done anything remotely like that so that we could become emotionally involved with him during a match? Maybe a little in the match vs Michaels, but that debatable, and calling him a future main eventer because of one match is awful.

[Open the Muggy Gate 0]

Lame unoutstabdable frat boy (Randy Orton)?

Unoutstabdable?!?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[cameron chaos 0]

Harley Race trained Murdoch. Race is respected by many so his boy is getting a push.

 

Shelton Benjamin turned down a shitty gimmick and misses spots. His push has been taken away. Add to that he's black (for all the racist angles booked in WWE, aside from Virgil vs Dibiase and maybe Snuka vs Piper, has the racist ever received his comeuppance? More recently I can recall Orton vs Shelton and Booker vs HHH where in both cases the Evo members went over) and apparently doesn't involve himself in the backstage politics and you have a guy very unlikely to end up with the World title.

[Guest Trecko]

So what is a presentable look that constitutes a major push? Lame unoutstandable frat boy (Randy Orton)? Over pumped steroid toxin freak (Batista)? A fucking stupid hairdo (Carlito)? I think we can all agree that mic skills is a null and void argument, but what a load of fucking shit. None of these are a valid excuse to bury this athlete let alone decline him of a worthwile push. Benjamin has much more of a "look" to him then any of the current main eventers save Angle. No one really has a "look" starting out in they're career. Murdoch will never have a "look". I don't care if he looks like an 80's slob, the man looks fucking terrible and totally unpresentable for ANY kind of title run. And this fucking slob goes over Benjamin and claims he's IC title worthy? Laughable.

 

The "look" to me is all about being able to believe in the person out there and buy into what they're doing. Cena has that look, I thought that from the first time I saw him, outside of the tights. Angle has that look, has had it since he debuted. Orton and Batista, as much as I dislike them, have that look. Carlito doesn't have that look, but he has the personality to back it up. Benjamin has NEITHER. In a company where you have to be able to do more than wrestle, he's fucked. Murdoch has no look, and I'm completely confused as to why they're even attempting to push him. But his hick gimmick will actually put him above bland ass, generic, "hey, I'm a pure wrestler, look at me as I yell around and act like the crowd is so excited to see me when you can hear a needle drop as soon as my music hits" Shelton Benjamin.

 

 

How the fuck does that not stand out above anything els. Benoit is good in the ring and shit at everything els. Shelton can easily go his route.

 

 

Because this is the fucking WWE where just being able to WRESTLE isn't enough any more? Act like you know.

 

And LOL, please don't compare Benjamin to Benoit. Benoit has respect within the industry and is well known; THAT is why he can get away with being shit at everything else. Benjamin is a nobody.

 

LOL @ him being the future, too. Not in this company.

 

And everyone saying Benjamin could have THIS gimmick, and have THAT gimmick, thank you for proving my point even more so that for right now, he's a bland, boring, generic fuck. Good in the ring, with no personality. Will he stay that way forever? For his sake, he better not. But for now, he's boring.

 

And to the guy above that referenced his work in TWGTT and when he debuted on RAW against Triple H, I honestly didn't see what was so great about it. None of it seemed natural to me. He's seemed forced throughout the time I've seen him, and just doesn't look comfortable. A mouth piece for dude would go a long way, and that TO/Muhammed Ali arrogant athlete type gimmick actually doesn't sound bad, I just don't know if he could pull it off. He needs a manager and he needs to find his niche. For now, though, boring, bland, and his losses make smarks that shitted on Hassan mad. I can't complain.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Lame unoutstabdable frat boy (Randy Orton)?

Unoutstabdable?!?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a perfectly cromulent word.

 

"hey, I'm a pure wrestler, look at me as I yell around and act like the crowd is so excited to see me when you can hear a needle drop as soon as my music hits" Shelton Benjamin.

Just because you don't like him doesn't mean you have to make up stuff that isn't true.

[The Czech Republic 0]

for the record, I think the T.O. gimmick would be an unoutstabdable direction. Go back to having him say "it's all about the Benjamins," and stick him with some fairly-good-looking, could-pass-for-Jewish indie wrestler as his Drew Rosenhaus.

[Guest Trecko]

Lame unoutstabdable frat boy (Randy Orton)?

Unoutstabdable?!?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a perfectly cromulent word.

 

"hey, I'm a pure wrestler, look at me as I yell around and act like the crowd is so excited to see me when you can hear a needle drop as soon as my music hits" Shelton Benjamin.

Just because you don't like him doesn't mean you have to make up stuff that isn't true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What? Don't act like it's never happened. And either way it's not like the crowd is going crazy enough to warrant all his hoppin and skippin and yellin to begin with. :-"

 

lol @ "stick him with some fairly-good-looking, could-pass-for-Jewish indie wrestler as his Drew Rosenhaus.", btw.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Maybe he's just pumped to the gills with PCP

[Guest The Showcase]

We all know how Vince feels about African-Americans in that skit in Survivor Series.

 

Shelton doesn't need charisma to get over, all he needs is his wrestling as you saw in his matches with HBK, Wrestlemania 21(Where he arguably stole the show), Jericho, Christian, and HHH.

 

Shelton is very good on the mic, if you heard him in his WGTT days, but hasen't really been given a chance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Doesn't need charisma?! That's the silliest thing I ever heard. Having charisma is absolutely essential to being over.

 

Angle/Michaels stole the show at Wrestlemania. Shelton had a cool highlight.

 

I'm not here to shit on Shelton. I'm just as much a fan of Shelton as the next guy. But let's be honest here. Shelton has no exuding personality. He's black man in blue tights. Now, I will say that with the right push or storyline, that can change. As it stands, Shelton is just a guy who wrestles, therefore, people have no reason to have any emotional investments about him.

 

He can have GREAT matches but that only appeals to a small majority of wrestling fan. He's got the workrate, he just needs the persona in the forefront to catapult him to the upper end of the card. I think it can be done, but only time will tell.

 

[Edit] I think somebody might have already mentioned this but giving Shelton a manager would be a huge step towards him being a legitimate star[/Edit]

[Guest Unoutstabdable]

Lame unoutstabdable frat boy (Randy Orton)?

Unoutstabdable?!?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What?

[Guest Jack Potts]

And everyone saying Benjamin could have THIS gimmick, and have THAT gimmick, thank you for proving my point even more so that for right now, he's a bland, boring, generic fuck. Good in the ring, with no personality. Will he stay that way forever? For his sake, he better not. But for now, he's boring.

 

And to the guy above that referenced his work in TWGTT and when he debuted on RAW against Triple H, I honestly didn't see what was so great about it. None of it seemed natural to me. He's seemed forced throughout the time I've seen him, and just doesn't look comfortable. A mouth piece for dude would go a long way, and that TO/Muhammed Ali arrogant athlete type gimmick actually doesn't sound bad, I just don't know if he could pull it off. He needs a manager and he needs to find his niche. For now, though, boring, bland, and his losses make smarks that shitted on Hassan mad. I can't complain. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Shelton HAD a viable gimmick as the cocky young upstart who could back up his swagger in the ring. The writers killed the gimmick by shoving crappy dialogue and one-liners down his throat. In his mini-feud with HHH, the crowds WANTED to cheer him. They WANTED to like him. All they needed was a little more reason to believe in him, but the WWE squandered the goodwill by abruptly dropping the feud, which could have even continued with Orton or Batista picking up the reins for their mentor. They further killed his momentum by refusing to push his IC title reign. Ultimately, he jobbed the title to the finisher-less lovechild of Sideshow Bob and Razor Ramon. Shelton could have had ready-made feuds with Angle, Haas, Hassan, or Orton, but they have continually mishandled him.

 

Haas and Benjamin were gold (no pun intended) as Team Angle and later as the WGTT. Although Brock should have been booked as unstoppable, continually jobbing them to Brock Lesnar in handicap matches still took some luster off the team.

 

Also, anyone who honestly thinks that racism, subconscious or overt, has nothing to do with Benjamin's treatment is either delusional, or has not been watching the WWE product for the last several years. From HHH not getting his comeuppance after his inflammatory "you people" comment to Booker T, to the Mexicools' lawnmowers and janitor gear, to Hassan's gimmick deterioration from Arab-American-with-a-point to outright terrorist, to Vince's "nigga" comment this week, the WWE has a history of implicit and explicit racist portrayals and attitudes.

[Guest New Jake]

The "look" to me is all about being able to believe in the person out there and buy into what they're doing. Cena has that look, I thought that from the first time I saw him, outside of the tights. Angle has that look, has had it since he debuted. Orton and Batista, as much as I dislike them, have that look. Carlito doesn't have that look, but he has the personality to back it up. Benjamin has NEITHER. In a company where you have to be able to do more than wrestle, he's fucked. Murdoch has no look, and I'm completely confused as to why they're even attempting to push him. But his hick gimmick will actually put him above bland ass, generic, "hey, I'm a pure wrestler, look at me as I yell around and act like the crowd is so excited to see me when you can hear a needle drop as soon as my music hits" Shelton Benjamin.

 

You lost the plot the moment you mentioned those 3. Cena has lost whatever credibility there was to his "look". Orton's "look" only constitutes to the fact that he'll always be a fraud within his own rank. And Batista owes everything he has to his "look" and the simple fact that some attending WWE fans are just as fucking stupid as Vince is, otherwise this guy would never have a fanbase. Now Carlito we can agree has no "look" whatsoever, but he has 0 charisma and cannot be taken seriously. Your only right on Angle so far.

 

And fuck all this emphasis on "bland, generic" looks. Who doesn't look overly bland and generic at the start of there push(Kurt Angle anyone).

 

Because this is the fucking WWE where just being able to WRESTLE isn't enough any more? Act like you know.

 

Not good enough. Yes it's the WWE. And these fans want a changed product.

 

And LOL, please don't compare Benjamin to Benoit. Benoit has respect within the industry and is well known; THAT is why he can get away with being shit at everything else. Benjamin is a nobody.

 

Please, it is not about shining in the locker room. Your headfucked if you think locker room appeal comes first. And becides, Benoit earned his dues the hard way. Who's to say Shelton can't. And in that fact, what the fuck do you know?

 

And everyone saying Benjamin could have THIS gimmick, and have THAT gimmick, thank you for proving my point even more so that for right now, he's a bland, boring, generic fuck

 

And you sir are a boring, tasteless fuck.

 

You keep attacking my argument while not backing up your own. Shelton has NEVER used his mind in any of his matches, only his "cool" spots like the "hold my foot and then spin it around and back into your face" nonsense. He's had ONE good match (vs Michaels). WM21 wasn't a good performance at all - it was a spotfest. How could that even be considered good? Austin at WM X7 is the definition of a good performance because he uses facial expressions and plays to the crowd more perfect than I've ever seen. Has Shelton ever once done anything remotely like that so that we could become emotionally involved with him during a match? Maybe a little in the match vs Michaels, but that debatable, and calling him a future main eventer because of one match is awful.

 

I love it when someones argument becomes so utterly weak that they deny any point you made in the discussion and resort to mindless back-ups purely out of opinion. I'm attacking your argument because really your just making up lame excuses. Facial expressions? Who gives a fuck! Your blind. Period.

 

PS:Learn to comprehend with typos you fucking idiots.

[The Czech Republic 0]

PS:Learn to comprehend with typos you fucking idiots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Learn to comprehend with this board's clientele. The Internet is a pedantic place, and you've just entered its deepest darkest corner. Hey, now we know who you are. (That itself was a reference to board-darling Arrested Development, when the guy calls George Michael "Stardork.")

EDIT: No sooner than hitting "post" do I realize it should be "learn to comprehend this board's clientele," no "with." I wasn't kidding.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Sheldon (I know it's Shelton, this is a habit) Benjamin has the physical tools to be a fantastic wrestler. He is, however, limited by the WWE when it comes to developing and using those tools. He's a product of the WWE development system, which is certainly a knock against him. He is a company man, he follows the company line, he does what the company tells him to do, and he doesn't know anything other than the WWE. This means he'll wrestle the way they want him to wrestle, and he'll also act they way they want him to act. Problem is, especially character wise, they don't really know Sheldon Benjamin.

 

Benjamin has a _great_ look. The guy looks like a fighter. He looks like he should be in the Light Heavyweight Division in the UFC. The problem comes with the WWE being confused how to present him and get him over with the audience. They've tried different things, but gave up on them when they felt they didn't get a main event superstar out of it (or whatever their intent was). They wanted him to be the smart-ass, jokey kinda guy. It didn't come off too well. Why? Probably because it's not him, and the fans don't buy what he's saying. They know he's just reciting from a script, because its obvious he is. The dude isn't a great actor, he can't take words off a page and make them his own. The dude is a wrestler, and wrestlers don't need to be great actors. They just need to be able to get across who they are and what they know and they can do that well and convincingly, because its natural.

 

They tried to get him over as "the best pure athlete in the WWE today", which is actually better than their usual pap, but it lends itself to a big SO WHAT? He needs to do amazing things that you won't see anyone else do in his matches, and he needs to win those matches. This is where the WWE fell short. They allowed him to do the spots (think WM 21 time), those individual spots got over with the crowd, but afterwards when he lost the matches, it was a "can you believe that happened" rather than "That Benjamin guy is AWESOME!".

 

And one of the biggest killers for Benjamin is the WWE's push-halt-push strategy. This has happened to him a lot, and soon enough it will be too many times and the fans won't buy him in a top spot. He will get Jerichod. Why should the fans get behind him, why should the fans support him, when they know that a month down the line he'll be back in the mid card, or on heat, and their support will have been for nothing? With Brock Lesnar, the best thing they did was stay the course and continue his push even when they weren't getting the results and reactions they wanted to. They actually WORKED HARD to get him over, and the dude got over. I don't think its so much of a race issue as it is a size issue with Benjamin, because Brock got the push not just because he was really strong, he got it because he was really freakishly big which went really well with being really freakishly strong.

 

Benjamin has too many pluses to be dismissed or written off, and one major thing is his personality and promos which many see as a negative. The guy isn't the rock, but does he have to be? His voice is *great*. It's distinct, and it makes for some potential badass remarks. BADASS. Not smartass. He has a very deep voice, if rather than sounding like Will Smith he sounded like Avery Brooks or Lawrence Fishburn, then more of his character would get through and be more effective with the audience. In Hollywood, you have a role and you audition people for the part. You find the right person for the part. In some rare cases, a part is written for someone specific in mind, but in general, the role is written first and the actor is selected second. THIS DOES NOT WORK IN WRESTLING. In Hollywood there are countless actors, all relatively qualified for the part, that could do the role and do it well. With wrestling, there is a finite amount of talent that can be used. So rather than having this role for the wrestler already thought of and wanting the wrestler to act it out, they need to write around the wrestler himself and develop a character that is right for him. Problem is, the writing staff doesn't really interact with the wrestlers on an on-going basis, and they are hollywood writers who have the hollywood mentality of writing characters.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Okay, Rudo is really smart. Why HTQ's ban-hammer is always looming upon his head is anybody's guess.

[Hoff 0]

Might I direct you to the Candy Orton thread.

[The Czech Republic 0]

psh

[Hoff 0]

What, I'm just saying. I don't want the guy banned or anything, but that thread pretty much got derailed in an afternoon. I, for one, was shocked that New Jake's scathing remarks toward Batista and Orton didn't rekindle the discussion.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Okay, well that was mostly my fault. I'm a bad influence on Rudo. It's only when I come in and gum up the works that visions of derailed trains dance in his head.

[Guest Fook_Theta]

Shelton needs to be taken off the show for a few months and repackaged as something seriously different. Frankly I would just steal from the gobs of (the good stuff) Ron "The Truth" Killings/Homicide/Low Ki have done in the last few years. It's cheap but it would be effective to a crowd not used to someone darker than khaki beating the shit out of all these gimmicky tanned muscleheads.

 

Dare I say it, almost like a black "Stone Cold."

[The Czech Republic 0]

JUST HAVE HIM BE A POMPOUS BLACK ATHLETE IT'S NOT THAT HARD. He can steal from the gobs of EVERY WIDE RECEIVER OF THE LAST FIFTEEN YEARS AND HALF THE NBA.

[Hoff 0]

Have him record a rap album, and then he and Cena can have a rap-off, and like the crooked MC can be Bischoff in disguise, and then he can set Carlito up as the evil referee.

[Golgo 13 0]

I really like the 'stuck-up athlete turned up to eleven' idea along the lines of Owens or Tyson. Dress him up like he was when he first debuted on Heat. Give him his own Drew Rosenhaus, maybe a separate manager-promoter or valet to book his fights, a lower card wrestler or rookie willing to do his dirty work and follow him around. Maybe hire indy guys in every city they hit and have them just hanging around him in a posse.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Have his agent hijack the production truck mid-match so they can show him doing sit-ups in the back

[Guest tony manero]

Benjamin has too many pluses to be dismissed or written off, and one major thing is his personality and promos which many see as a negative.  The guy isn't the rock, but does he have to be?  His voice is *great*.  It's distinct, and it makes for some potential badass remarks.  BADASS.  Not smartass.  He has a very deep voice, if rather than sounding like Will Smith he sounded like Avery Brooks or Lawrence Fishburn, then more of his character would get through and be more effective with the audience.    In Hollywood, you have a role and you audition people for the part.  You find the right person for the part.  In some rare cases, a part is written for someone specific in mind, but in general, the role is written first and the actor is selected second.  THIS DOES NOT WORK IN WRESTLING.  In Hollywood there are countless actors, all relatively qualified for the part, that could do the role and do it well.  With wrestling, there is a finite amount of talent that can be used.  So rather than having this role for the wrestler already thought of and wanting the wrestler to act it out, they need to write around the wrestler himself and develop a character that is right for him.  Problem is, the writing staff doesn't really interact with the wrestlers on an on-going basis, and they are hollywood writers who have the hollywood mentality of writing characters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Excellent paragraph that exactly sums up what is wrong with WWE today. Austin, on several occasions, talks about this in his autobiography. For instance, he knew that WWE had absolutely nothing in mind for him; they wanted him to wear an emerald green singlet (!) and be called the "Ringmaster"; Vince and the rest of the crew only considered him an I.C. level guy who was great in the ring but had no charisma; and, if it weren't for Austin being insistent about the direction of his character and look, he would've never became the biggest draw in the business.

 

Like Austin before them, a lot of these wrestlers need to speak up and go straight to Vince about it, but at the same time they need to be friendly enough to establish a productive relationship with him.

[Guest tony manero]

As for Shelton's character, I definitely agree about the 'arrogant athlete' gimmick.

 

He can enter the arena with some of those gaudy outifts that NBA players (Shaq comes to mind, here, with his fur coats and avant-garde looking hats) would where before the dress code was enforced. Oh, and lots of gold chains and diamond rings.

 

He can cut promos about how, unlike another unnamed WWE superstar (Cena), he really did grow up in the ghetto; he really did have to look out for himself and avoid getting shot every day; and that he really did have a rough childhood growing up. But now, that he's made it big for himself, he's come too far to take a back seat to the other performers. Why? Because he's the greatest performer in WWE today. He's the MVP in the ring time and time again. Nobody else has even comparable athleticism; everyone else is either slow or boring in the ring. He's got it all -- the best athleticism in WWE today, lots of money (insert Benjamin pun catchphrase about $Money, here), lots of women at his disposal, and lots of blingbling. He can mention how his hunger for money will never die, because he never wants to experience again what he did growing up.

 

He can gloat that without him, WWE would go out of business and nobody would be glued to their television sets on Monday Nights anymore to see Shelton Benjamin defy the laws of gravity with his elite athleticism and talent. People buy tickets to see Shelton live in the ring, but Shelton doesn't perform all the time at the fans beckon call; he performs when he feels like it, because the fans should feel priveleged to even get a glimpse of him. He wrestles and does interviews on his own terms, because he's fucking worth it. He can even say some of those sarcastic replies and curt comments that athletes give when they're being interviewed.

 

"I'm the best, and to witness the best you have to pay to see me"

 

"It's all about the Benjamins"

 

"My name is Shelton Benjamin and I'm MONEY (in the ring, in the building, in the aisle, on your television screen, backstage...it doesn't matter where I am) because I sparkle like diamond rings and shine like gold..." If that's kind of lame, he can say, "Because I'm the best damn thing y'all white bitches and crackers are ever gonna see..." If you wanna go further with the race card, he can say, "Whether you want to admit it or not, no white man can do what I do in this ring."

 

Something like that.

 

Edited to add: He can even be shown holding up the GM or Vince McMahon for more money before big matches. Or, he can abruptly stop wrestling in the middle of his matches unless the GM, Vince, or whoever comes down to the ring and gives him more money to continue performing like only he can.

[The Czech Republic 0]

The T.O. thing would get over too much and they'd have to water it down as per usual, anyway. But yeah

 

Have him throw various tag team members under the bus for not being able to keep up with him. Of course, he should talk a lot, but leave some words for his agent.

[Guest tony manero]

The T.O. thing would get over too much and they'd have to water it down as per usual, anyway. But yeah

 

Have him throw various tag team members under the bus for not being able to keep up with him. Of course, he should talk a lot, but leave some words for his agent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Tell me about it. HHH would quash him ASAP if he got too over for his own good.

 

Having an agent is another great idea.

[The Czech Republic 0]

To borrow a page from Steinbrenner, maybe Benjamin can go reclusive when under fire and just have his agent, some sorta Eisenberg or something, read press releases. Just another way to mask the fact that Shelton's not the best at reading from scripts. Just have someone actually read a script. Make no bones about it.

 

But yeah, have him win the IC title and hold out for more pay.