Is WWE going to get any better?

[Mole 0]

Before the boom, you couldn't get second tier seats the day of a show at MSG though, that's my point. They went from selling out every show for years at a time to not even being able to run it anymore. That had nothing to do with a fad because I've been to MSG in the '80s, '90s and '00s and I never went to a show that didn't have at least 3/4 capacity. Now they can't even afford the licensing fee.

So in 1995, WWF sold out MSG all the time? Can I see some facts to back this up please?

 

Congrats, you completely missed the point. Without WCW, WWE would not have been successful in the late 90's. That "rebound" that they "always" manage to do, would not have happened. WCW and the NWO angle brought in new and old fans alike while the WWE was busy in gimmick-land. The rebound wasn't WWE initiated. So if you think that the WWE can ever kickstart things because they did it before, you're wrong.

Hey, I stopped watching wrestling around 1995 or so and then I started again with the nWo angle. I saw Nash throw Rey into the trailer and it had me hooked again. It was something different, I saw that, and decided to watch again.

 

That is exactly what WWE needs to do now.

 

Some different.

Edited December 15, 2005 by Mole

[hyperchord24 0]

Let me first say that WWE’s first job is to feed Vince’s ego. That is the most important thing. Everyone who works for the WWE is either directly or indirectly responsible for this.

 

History repeats itself. I think RRR as well as others have made some great points. Competition is the only thing that will keep the WWE’s product fresh. That’s why I get so excited about TNA because I loved the ratings war. The wrestling was great. I hope that history does repeat itself, but that seems unlikely. There needs to be an angle like the NWO. There needs to be something that changes the face of wrestling, and not just a Sting teaser at the latest TNA ppv.

 

Vince poured his heart and soul into beating WCW. If he had things his way, he’d be firing Eric Bischoff every week and burying the rest of the WCW talent (that haven’t been buried yet). It will slowly degrade into this until TNA gets its act together.

 

Finally, I’d like to say how easy it is for me to come up with feuds and uses for underused talent. I almost scream at the TV b/c I think I know better. I don’t know. If I had the rosters that the WWE had, all I would have to do is cut pictures out of all the superstars, lay them on the floor, and choose who feuds with whom, with logical storylines. No one in WWE lands seems to know how to put on good wrestling and entertainment, but they sure know how to appease the McMahons’ egos.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

How can the WWE's product be different when everyone behind the scenes is the same as it was years ago? Do you see Vince firing Steph? Or any of his yes men?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Has anyone here even considered for a second the possibility that they outgrew a simplistic form of storytelling?

 

No. That has never entered my mind. I usually just stop at gross incompetency because anything else is giving them too much credit. WWE defines simple.

[Fro 0]

Has anyone here even considered for a second the possibility that they outgrew a simplistic form of storytelling?

 

I can still enjoy it now and then, but I'm far from a diehard and some stuff that would have me cracking up 5-6 years ago falls flat now. I just grew up, and the more I learned the less there was to learn and the more disinterested I became. I think this happens to everyone in some way.

 

No, it's just a lot worse. And Russo, for all his faults, when he had a guy who could veto the 8 out of 10 ideas he had that were crap wrote some pretty intriguing stuff (even if the internal contunity got all screwed up).

 

What's the last thing that you really marked out for on Raw that wasn't a good wrestling match or WWE screwing up/doing something totally awful? That's the problem.

Edited December 15, 2005 by Fro

[Mole 0]

Just hire Scott Keith.

[Jericholic82 0]

Has anyone here even considered for a second the possibility that they outgrew a simplistic form of storytelling?

 

I can still enjoy it now and then, but I'm far from a diehard and some stuff that would have me cracking up 5-6 years ago falls flat now. I just grew up, and the more I learned the less there was to learn and the more disinterested I became. I think this happens to everyone in some way.

 

I mean, is it any worse than it was when it was popular? Yeah, the ratings were higher, but aside from a few people there was no super six, there was no benoit or guerrero, there was no Angle, there was sexual chocolate fathering hands and DX making people flash. And think back to before that, I thought Yokozuna was the baddest mofo on the planet back then, now if he were still around I'd probably look at him and think "I could take this douche". It's just a different mindframe.

 

I really think we're just coming from a different perspective then we used to. I'm sure a 7 year old will still see Taker doing his thing and be astonished, I'm sure a 9 year old would put 5 dollars on Big Show being able to eat a car. Certain things are just easier to believe, and in turn enjoy, at that age.

I think you make a great point. Being older and wiser you just dont get the same feeling when you watch wrestling anymore. I feel the same way, though I continue to watch loyally every week for some bizarre reason. And I mean all kinds of wrestling not just WWE. However if I go to a live show (and I do so very rarely), I'll have way more fun then I have in watching the tv for the past 5 years. Being there live lets you let go and get lost in the show. It seems more real since you are there and not watching the TV.

 

I am probably making no sense here so i'll stop but hopefully you got the gist of it.

 

And I didn't mean to imply everyone on here was a casual fan, I just don't understand why people are discussing the ratings and ticket sales when we are supposed to be discussing why we dislike the current poduct and if and how it can get "better".

[naiwf 0]

It can't get better until the people in charge are threatened. I think everyone here has said that they've just grown lazy and complacent which is reflected in downward spiraling ratings, buyrates and revenues. If THAT isn't enough to be the swift kick in the ass they need to change things up nothing self contained within the WWE will.

[jester 0]

Has anyone here even considered for a second the possibility that they outgrew a simplistic form of storytelling?

 

I can still enjoy it now and then, but I'm far from a diehard and some stuff that would have me cracking up 5-6 years ago falls flat now. I just grew up, and the more I learned the less there was to learn and the more disinterested I became. I think this happens to everyone in some way.

 

Yes, I've considered that. But I don't believe it to be true in my case. I enjoy many forms of storytelling, and wrestling is one of them. I appreciate story in all forms, including simpler forms. It's not that I have outgrown this format, because even now I still see a grain of the things that make wrestling entertaining here and there. But the people in charge of this format aren't using it to tell good stories. They could. But for whatever reason, they aren't.

[Guest King TelFie]

It's been said that Vince isn't even that interested in wrestling anymore. And it seems true, in the past we've seen him try and expand. XFL and WWE movies being two that spring to mind. Perhaps his lack of passion is a reason for the lack of great storytelling.

[naiwf 0]

 

Before the boom, you couldn't get second tier seats the day of a show at MSG though, that's my point. They went from selling out every show for years at a time to not even being able to run it anymore. That had nothing to do with a fad because I've been to MSG in the '80s, '90s and '00s and I never went to a show that didn't have at least 3/4 capacity. Now they can't even afford the licensing fee.

So in 1995, WWF sold out MSG all the time? Can I see some facts to back this up please?

 

Congrats, you completely missed the point. Without WCW, WWE would not have been successful in the late 90's. That "rebound" that they "always" manage to do, would not have happened. WCW and the NWO angle brought in new and old fans alike while the WWE was busy in gimmick-land. The rebound wasn't WWE initiated. So if you think that the WWE can ever kickstart things because they did it before, you're wrong.

Hey, I stopped watching wrestling around 1995 or so and then I started again with the nWo angle. I saw Nash throw Rey into the trailer and it had me hooked again. It was something different, I saw that, and decided to watch again.

 

That is exactly what WWE needs to do now.

 

Some different.

 

I just happened to find this site when trying to see what year Hogan vs Kamala was on since that was the first live event I saw (12/26/86).

 

http://www.angelfire.com/wrestling/cawthon777/80smsg.htm

 

I know that they did really well in the '70s because if I'm not mistaken Bruno has the record for MSG sellouts and that means he had to do better business than Hogan did. Look at all the sellouts in the '80s. They did well at points in the '90s too. My point still stands that they were able to draw at MSG multiple times per year in the past whether wrestling was a fad or not. The fact that they can't turn a profit now, and won't be running at all in 2006 at their home arena is mindboggling to me and I don't think anyone would have taken that bet as recently as 2 years ago.

[SuperJerk 0]

I don't think Raw is that bad, just stale. Kind of like how old bands get boring because their songs all sound the same. If yo go back and watch a show from 5 years ago, you'd probably notice the show's just as dumb, but seemed better at the time.

 

The reason I stay a fan is because there's usually one or two things out of the six things they're doing on a show at a given time that I like.

 

Actually when I go back and watch a Raw from 5 years ago, the first thing I notice is how good everything was. Almost everything was entertaining. Every single wrestler was involved in a storyline so it didn't become boring. Interviews don't seem as scripted and rehearsed. Matches were less predictable. Sure, it's mostly crap today and we all complain, but until you put in an old tape, you don't realize just how bad it is.

 

"I CHOPPY CHOPPY YOU PEE-PEE!"

[Enigma 0]

I'd rather watch Yamaguchi-San attempt to chop off Val Venis' penis than Chris Masters going for the WWE Title.

 

In fact, I'd rather watch Yamaguchi-San attempt to chop off MY penis than Chris Masters going for the WWE Title.

[Guest HeadDropMark]

This was one of the best posts I've seen around here. You 'get it' where so many others don't. I'd only add that today those 10 year old newbie fans are filling out arenas around the world, from Europe to Asia to parts in between. For quite a few people this WWE content is 'great stuff worth paying for'.

 

Old tapes show me that the WWF/E stuff that entertained me as a kid wasn't really as great as I remembered it with fuzzy memories. The TV is better today then it was 15 years ago, the women are hotter, the in ring content is comparable if not better and the angles are basically the same (accept they're speeded up). It isn't really the 'product' that isn't working, it's the appreciation for it by people who have either 'out grown' it or have been exposed to so much pro wres that what entertains them isn't the type of stuff that makes WWE money (Diva Search, Action Adventure skits, etc).

 

Oh, blah...

 

Maybe the WWE will never get any better for YOU, but if history teaches us anything, it's that the company definitely will rebound. WWE always does.

 

There was a boom in the mid '80s. There was a boom in the late '90s. There will be another. Now why exactly they can't sustain the things they do in these booms into making a quality product all the time is anyone's guess, but just when you figure they're F'd, they always stumble into something.

 

For every jaded smark who has watched for years and gets burned out to the point of not wanting to watch anymore, there's a 10 year old just starting to watch the show who is also buying the Cena merchandise. Believe it or not, in 10 years, that same kid will be a bitter smark on the Internet who is dissatisfied with the current product and is longing for the days of when John Cena was doing his shtick in "the good old days."

 

The truth is, things haven't REALLY dropped off as much as you think. You can only watch this stuff for so long before you've pretty much seen it all. Sure the faces change, but eventually it boils down to the same basic concepts. You either accept the show for what it is and live with it or you get bored with it and move on to other stuff.

 

Or you become a smark on the Internet bitching about how things will never get better ever again like it was in the good old days when you started watching.

[SuperJerk 0]

After tonight, I'm seriously rethinking my position.

[Hoff 0]

If the WWE wants to usher in the next boom period, they've got to usher out the remnants of the last one. Now, this is pretty simple thinking and it may have even been touched upon by someone else, but, looking at the last two "high" periods of wrestling's popularity, that's the one constant. People can point to Hogan in the 80s and Austin (or the nWo) in the 90s, but that's ignoring the big picture. At those times, the landscape of the wrestling world changed in big ways.

 

The 80s ushered out legends like Sammartino, the Iron Shiek, Bob Backlund, and even Andre in favor of Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Bossman, the Million Dollar Man, JYD, Hacksaw, Sid Justice, the British Bulldogs, the Harts, the Rockers, Demolition, LOD..the list goes on. It wasn't just the main event scene, but the undercard and the tag team ranks as well. It happened again in the mid-90s, with Hogan and company being ousted in favor of Austin, Hart, Michaels, Owen, Razor, Ahmed, HHH, The Rock, Vader, Goldust, Shamrock, Venis, the Outlaws, E&C, the Dudleys, the Hardy Boys...again, not just the main event scene, but the entire roster looked very different. I know this ignores the nWo, but that was really a lucky guess, no? I don't think it's a stretch to say that Austin 3:16 would have caught on like wildfire even without Hogan, Hall and Nash throwing gang symbols into the air. Maybe neither company would have pulled Nielsens in the 8s or 9s, but business was going to pick up regardless.

 

What they need to do, as much as it pains me, is get rid of Michaels. Get rid of HHH (ha) and the Undertaker and even Kane. Get rid of the McMahons, who have gotten more airtime in seven years that Michaels has in twice that. Axe the Big Show and Ric Flair. Quit bringing Austin and Hogan back. Look at your own past, WWE -- not what was going on around you, but what you did -- and follow your own lead. Give these new kids a chance to shine. Let Shelton bust ass in the ring. Let Edge try his hand on top -- it's clearly what you're dying to do anyway. See if Carlito can really get it done in-ring. Give VEE-ONE-AAH a decent push, and see if he has any fans left. Hell, throw Chris Masters in a PPV main event singles match and see how the fans like it. Get behind Randy, already. There's a mindset out there that you can't just throw it all against the wall, but if you don't, how do you know what will stick? It worked with Cena...but without new opponents to vanquish, his act is already tiring. For things to feel fresh, you can't see two guys with a total of fifteen title reigns fighting in the top spot each week. It's time to see how good that farm system really is. Pull the trigger -- and don't half ass it. Worst case scenario, you go up in flames, but isn't that better than a slow, painful death?

[Placebo Effect 0]

Vince Russo was the one who snapped McMahon out of the 80s philosophy in the mid 90s.

 

Now we can just hope that someone else comes along that snaps McMahon out of his 90s philosophy in the next couple years.

[Guest God Junior]

To the people saying it only seemsworse to us now because we've grown up; this doesn't explain why the kids who are the same age now as we were during the Attitute era aren't watching the product. I also think it's kinda dumb to say that the product back then sucked looking back on it; it may seem like that now, but it didn't then, which is what's important. If the WWE evnetered another boom period, would you be watching and saying "oh, this isn't gonna seem as good as it does now 5 years down the line, so it sucks"?

[hyperchord24 0]

Vince Russo was the one who snapped McMahon out of the 80s philosophy in the mid 90s.

 

Now we can just hope that someone else comes along that snaps McMahon out of his 90s philosophy in the next couple years.

"I'm Vince McMahon, dammit, and I single-handedly destroyed WCW and ECW."

Yeah, no one's going to convince this man of anything now.

[Silence 0]

"I'm Vince McMahon, dammit, and I single-handedly destroyed WCW and ECW."

 

Which also translates to "Since my former WCW rival is now in WWE, I will make a fool out of him at any cost, even going as far as putting him into a trash truck!"