Hamas wins big in elections

[2GOLD 0]

A little off topic, but the Christian Science Montior has an op-ed piece several days ago that said we should consider making a truce with Osama bin Laden......looks like the good ol' Munich Pact mindset is back people!

 

Agreeing to a truce with a terrorist organization is like leaving your seven year old daughter with a child rapist for the weekend. You know it's stupid so why the fuck would you do it?

[Guest Famous Mortimer]

Nope. There's conservative and liberal, then there's fact an fiction. I'm a liberal, but Israel is in the right in pretty much every way in the conflict.

Okay, here's a fun exercise. Go check out the number of UN Resolutions Israel has completely ignored and the number of times they've had UN resolutions condemning them for their actions towards the Palestinians. It's quite a lot.

 

The Judge misses a few important moments out in his potted history of Israel. Firstly, why the Palestinians should have been happy with any offer at all when it came to driving them out of their homes and destroying their state, which had existed for centuries. Secondly, good ol' Israel refuses Palestinians the right of return to their homeland while still allowing any Jew who wishes to come and stay there. Any debate on the issue is immediately dismissed as anti-Semitism, and it's nothing of the sort- it's the Zionist political doctrine which most people are opposed to. It's not 100%, of course.

 

When one side is funded by the USA to the tune of $6 billion a year, and the other...isn't, when one side has massive military power and can destroy whole villages in the search for one man, and the other is forced into suicide bombings as it has no other way of fighting and no way of letting the rest of the world know, then why do so many people side with the very obvious aggressors in this war? I'm glad Hamas has won because it might finally force the rest of the world to get off its ass and do something about this. Fatah with its corruption and collusion is gone.

 

Israel in 1967 drew up borders with Palestine which Palestine, under duress, agreed to. Almost immediately those borders were breached and they set up the settlements in the occupied territories. The few settlements which you saw being evacuated recently is nowhere near to returning the state of play to those 1967 levels...but the Palestinians shouldn't be pissed off when they see pregnant women die by the roadside because Israeli troops won't let them through a checkpoint- a checkpoint which exists on even the most conservative view of Palestinian land, a checkpoint stopping people getting from one part of their country to another part of their country.

 

To anyone who's read much of anything without a heavy right-wing political bias to it, it should be obvious who the real bad guys are in this situation. Not all Jews, just those who are in charge of Israel.

[Justice 0]

Okay, here's a fun exercise. Go check out the number of UN Resolutions Israel has completely ignored and the number of times they've had UN resolutions condemning them for their actions towards the Palestinians. It's quite a lot.

 

Yes, resolutions like against having military parades after winning the 6 Days War. I've seen many of the resolutions; it really doesn't add up to anything henious. Unless we are talking about the slaughter of so many innocent that happened a few years ago that never actually happened.

 

The Judge misses a few important moments out in his potted history of Israel. Firstly, why the Palestinians should have been happy with any offer at all when it came to driving them out of their homes and destroying their state, which had existed for centuries. Secondly, good ol' Israel refuses Palestinians the right of return to their homeland while still allowing any Jew who wishes to come and stay there. Any debate on the issue is immediately dismissed as anti-Semitism, and it's nothing of the sort- it's the Zionist political doctrine which most people are opposed to. It's not 100%, of course.

 

Of course, because it's all Zionist plots, because the Jews are obviously out to dominate the region.

 

But in all seriousness, look at why they do what you are talking about: Much of this is a response to suicide bombers and other actions taken by what is now the government in power there. Do you honestly think they want walls? They have them there for their own protection. But whatever. It's all obviously there to hurt the Palestinians because the Israelis are simply big bullies.

 

On Palestine existing for hundreds of years... No, not really. It started being called Palestine under the rule of the Ottomans in the 19th Century. Most of the Palestinians there today are related from Saudi Arabia, and started about maybe 50 to 60 years ahead of the Jews. So yes, most recently the 'native' Palestinians have been there, but the Jews were there long before (And still existed in pockets under the Turks) and I wouldn't say that 50 or so years leaves the Palestinians with a claim of 'Homeland' as you are giving it. Arguably, the Jews are the true historic owners of the land, and were forcibly ejected long before the Palestinians as we know them ever came into existance.

 

I'm not going to claim you forgot that, either, since you probably didn't know it in the first place.

 

When one side is funded by the USA to the tune of $6 billion a year, and the other...isn't, when one side has massive military power and can destroy whole villages in the search for one man, and the other is forced into suicide bombings as it has no other way of fighting and no way of letting the rest of the world know, then why do so many people side with the very obvious aggressors in this war? I'm glad Hamas has won because it might finally force the rest of the world to get off its ass and do something about this. Fatah with its corruption and collusion is gone.

 

Why do we fund Israel? Because it is quite simply the friendliest and most stable democracy in the region.

 

Forced into Suicide bombings? Have you ever thought that after a dozen or so 'Wars of Extermination', the Israelis could be partly victimized here? Do you think that their increased militarization is a direct result of these wars, and that they are to discourage more military attacks against them?

 

You act as though Israelis... I mean, Zionists haven't tried to broker for peace. Let's forget about people like Ehud Barak (Who had a nice offer for peace), as well as Yitzak Rabin. Can you honestly claim that Yassar Arafat has done anything close to that for the Palestinians?

 

Israel in 1967 drew up borders with Palestine which Palestine, under duress, agreed to. Almost immediately those borders were breached and they set up the settlements in the occupied territories. The few settlements which you saw being evacuated recently is nowhere near to returning the state of play to those 1967 levels...but the Palestinians shouldn't be pissed off when they see pregnant women die by the roadside because Israeli troops won't let them through a checkpoint- a checkpoint which exists on even the most conservative view of Palestinian land, a checkpoint stopping people getting from one part of their country to another part of their country.

 

Beautiful that you ignore the fact that THE SIX DAY WAR occurred during this time. Whatever you are talking about was after the war, when Israel took over the Jordanian and Egyptian-controlled areas. No offense, but that's the Arabs on the outside screwing the Palestinians over, not the Israelis. All the checkpoints and such came as a result of Arab agression and the claim that there wouldn't be peace with Israel.

 

Of course, we have to mention pregnant women. Because we can't have Zionist plots without the murder of pregnant women. I'm sure they celebrated that at the night club later on. Well, before someone blew it up.

 

To anyone who's read much of anything without a heavy right-wing political bias to it, it should be obvious who the real bad guys are in this situation. Not all Jews, just those who are in charge of Israel.

 

If you've actually read up on the history of Israel, you'd realize that other Arab countries using Palestine as a political tool while not giving a shit about what happens to the Palestinians is part of the problem, as well as the simple problem of getting a Palestinian leader that will really work for peace. The Israelis don't have any stake in pissing off a population that is fast outpacing them in growth, why do it? The whole conspiracy around Israel wanting to piss all over the Palestinians doesn't have logic to it because they really don't have anything to gain.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

Hamas got elected? I think it's become pretty clear that this 'democracy' thing is becoming a clear hindrance in the fight against terror. We're really gonna have to fight against this terrorist-loving ideology democracy ideology.

[MrRant 0]

Let's go ethnic cleansing~!

[The Czech Republic 0]

Famous Mortimer may have some good points, but I can't take him seriously because his name makes me think of a naked Bob Odenkirk

[Guest Famous Mortimer]

Okay, the Six Day War took place. So why have the borders not been returned to what was agreed, almost 40 years later? And you're being incredibly dismissive of the Security Council resolutions Israel have broken- what about all the ones about ignoring the borders they themselves agreed on? But that's the fault of other Arab nations, ain't it? Come on.

 

Of course, we have to mention pregnant women. Because we can't have Zionist plots without the murder of pregnant women. I'm sure they celebrated that at the night club later on. Well, before someone blew it up.

It happens! Trying to laugh about it doesn't make it any less real, but you know there's no comeback to this so you try and make a joke out of the situation. Peace campaigners have been shot dead by Israeli forces. Want to try and make a joke out of that?

 

It started being called Palestine under the rule of the Ottomans in the 19th Century. Most of the Palestinians there today are related from Saudi Arabia, and started about maybe 50 to 60 years ahead of the Jews

This is pretty weak. People who call themselves Palestinians may only have been there since the late 19th century, but they've lived in the area long before that, and in relative peace with the Jews too. What changed that? Did the religions change or was it the politics of the people in charge? I'm not laying this at Judaism's door because David Ben-Gurion was an atheist- it's a specific political doctrine.

 

You answer one of your own questions, in a way. I'm glad you've not brought up the whole 7 Nation Army crap (as any fule kno, Israel's army was bigger and better equipped than the other 7 combined)- you ask "what does Israel have to gain from oppressing a growing population of Palestinians?" At another point in your post, you say the USA funds Israel to the tune of $6 billion (3 billion in aid, 3 billion in military funds) a year because it's a stable democracy. It's a stable democracy which oppresses and murders, but that's by the by. The reason America funds it is because it's politically useful to have a non-Arab state, heavily armed, in the middle of a bunch of Arab states.

 

I don't support suicide bombings, and anyone who does is seriously misguided. But I understand why they happen. When you get villages bulldozed to kill one person (a point you failed to come back on) and helicopter gunships strafing wedding parties to kill a man in a wheelchair, and you have no way of fighting back on the same terms, some people must think the only way to fight back is by suicide bombings. I think the side with the billions of dollars of military equipment is more dangerous than the side with the home-made bombs.

 

Some Israelis have tried to broker for peace. Absolutely. But how much further should Palestine retreat to avoid further bombings from Israel? The 1967 deal was seen as pretty poor for the Palestinians anyway, and even the most generous deal made by Barak wasn't anywhere close to giving them that territory back.

 

Know what I'd like? One country. No religious persecution, people from both cultures co-existing without blowing each other up. It can happen and does happen in other places and if the ordinary people of both countries, who are sick of living in fear, got together it might just happen. I don't want the Israelis driven into the sea any more than I want Palestine destroyed, and I think a two-state solution is a recipe for disaster. I think Israel should give the right of return to Palestinians the same as it gives Jews who wish to settle in Israel- I understand why Israel is important for Jews as they have suffered worse oppression than pretty much any other religious group down the centuries, but the answer is not to employ the same tactics used against them on the Arabs.

[Justice 0]

Okay, the Six Day War took place. So why have the borders not been returned to what was agreed, almost 40 years later? And you're being incredibly dismissive of the Security Council resolutions Israel have broken- what about all the ones about ignoring the borders they themselves agreed on? But that's the fault of other Arab nations, ain't it? Come on.

 

Well, you have the war of 1970, then the Yom Kippur War, and then we have Yassar Arafat. Israel did give back the Sinai, I don't think they want this sort of fighting. If you want to claim they 'broke borders', understand that it was more in a response to both wars (including the guerilla warfare that was coming out of many of these places into Israel itself).

 

Again, I've read many of the Security Council Resolutions. They aren't that big: many are against the celebration of victory in the wars they've won and other very trivial things. I'm not trying to write them off, but have you seriously read them? They aren't nearly as big a deal as you make them out to be.

 

If you can't honestly admit that the Palestinians have been victimized by other Arab countries as well, I don't know what to say. So many of the problems have come because of other countries have used the Palestinians as some sort of arguing point for trying to exterminate Israel from the region.

 

It happens! Trying to laugh about it doesn't make it any less real, but you know there's no comeback to this so you try and make a joke out of the situation. Peace campaigners have been shot dead by Israeli forces. Want to try and make a joke out of that?

 

And so do bus bombs, grenade attacks... they all were happening back then. It's a cycle.

 

And what do you think about Jenin and that lie, just to ask.

 

This is pretty weak. People who call themselves Palestinians may only have been there since the late 19th century, but they've lived in the area long before that, and in relative peace with the Jews too. What changed that? Did the religions change or was it the politics of the people in charge? I'm not laying this at Judaism's door because David Ben-Gurion was an atheist- it's a specific political doctrine.

 

What, you said that they had been there for quote "hundreds of years". They actually haven't been there for hundreds of years. Who else lived there for longer than the Palestinians, because I'm honestly confused (You left out some noun there).

 

What changed the peace? The invasion when the Arab nations turned down the 1948 Compromise. There really isn't much else to be explained there.

 

You answer one of your own questions, in a way. I'm glad you've not brought up the whole 7 Nation Army crap (as any fule kno, Israel's army was bigger and better equipped than the other 7 combined)- you ask "what does Israel have to gain from oppressing a growing population of Palestinians?" At another point in your post, you say the USA funds Israel to the tune of $6 billion (3 billion in aid, 3 billion in military funds) a year because it's a stable democracy. It's a stable democracy which oppresses and murders, but that's by the by. The reason America funds it is because it's politically useful to have a non-Arab state, heavily armed, in the middle of a bunch of Arab states.

 

... Okay, so because they were smaller, that makes them somehow justified in attacking Israel? Wow, didn't know that one. No matter who was bigger or smaller, the 7 Nations Army wasn't justified in attacking Israel.

 

Good way to ignore "What would Israel have to gain from oppressing the Palestinians" with a few ad homin attacks. OMG THE US FUNDS IT! That's not even related to the point at hand: Why is Israel heavily armed in the first place? Why do they feel a need to continue to be heavily armed? Because of places like Iran, Syria, and other hostile Arab Nations.

 

Again, what do they have to gain? The US isn't paying them to oppress the Palestinians. Oppressing them only makes democracy less stable. What do they get out of pushing down the Palestinians if the Palestinians aren't starting things up with the Israelis? The Israelis WANT peace. The Palestinians... well, I think they do to. I want to think they do. But people like Hamas don't. They are one of the big reasons Israel is still doing checkpoints and other things like that.

 

I don't support suicide bombings, and anyone who does is seriously misguided. But I understand why they happen. When you get villages bulldozed to kill one person (a point you failed to come back on) and helicopter gunships strafing wedding parties to kill a man in a wheelchair, and you have no way of fighting back on the same terms, some people must think the only way to fight back is by suicide bombings. I think the side with the billions of dollars of military equipment is more dangerous than the side with the home-made bombs.

 

I understand why they bulldoze apartment complexes on occasion (I've seen pictures of them finding explosives labs and other such things in them). You recognize why the Palestinians do what they do, but what about the Israelis? They've fought tooth and nail for their existance since they were founded. Now they have a group of people who run around into crowded marketplaces, buses, nightclubs, and weddings (Yes, you wanna play the wedding card) and explod.e.

 

I can understand why they could be a bit ruthless. I don't like it, my nation isn't under siege like theirs is.

 

Some Israelis have tried to broker for peace. Absolutely. But how much further should Palestine retreat to avoid further bombings from Israel? The 1967 deal was seen as pretty poor for the Palestinians anyway, and even the most generous deal made by Barak wasn't anywhere close to giving them that territory back.

 

...

 

What the hell are you TALKING about? Barak's deal was close to 1948 in it's generosity. You keep talking about '1967! 1967!' but those borders were giving control of Palestinian Territories to Jordan and Egypt. That's the reason why they don't go back to them, idiot.

 

Know what I'd like? One country. No religious persecution, people from both cultures co-existing without blowing each other up. It can happen and does happen in other places and if the ordinary people of both countries, who are sick of living in fear, got together it might just happen. I don't want the Israelis driven into the sea any more than I want Palestine destroyed, and I think a two-state solution is a recipe for disaster. I think Israel should give the right of return to Palestinians the same as it gives Jews who wish to settle in Israel- I understand why Israel is important for Jews as they have suffered worse oppression than pretty much any other religious group down the centuries, but the answer is not to employ the same tactics used against them on the Arabs.

 

I would love a one-state solution. The problem is that over about 40 years of wars and 20 years of terrorism/freedom fighters, I find it greatly unlikely. When it comes down to it, I find that the Palestinians are victims that don't even realized that they are being used by their Arab 'Allies' as a talking point for attacking Israel (Many Arab Nations couldn't care less about the actual Palestinians). As for Israel, I understand that they've done things that are wrong. But I can understand why they have a reason to be built up, and to be brutal.

[Art Sandusky 0]

I think you fellas are overestimating the US influence in this. Such radicals don't look at us as the US, they look at us as "The West," and group us in with the rest of the people that they view as protectors of Israel. Our invading Iraq didn't magically insert these violent people into power, it was just something else they could use to drum up support against what could be viewed as complicit incumbent parties.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

*edit*

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I think if the arguement can't get past the finger pointing of "well THEY did it first" there will never be a solution. Hence, there will never be a solution.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Just like our own politics! Boy, we got a lot more in common with them Ay-rabs than I thought.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

What I think is weird is that we're expected to believe the "Palestinians" are going to settle for three very small tracks of land that will be barely connected to each other. I just find it hard to believe that if they get that as their own country, they're going to stop trying to kill Israelis.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

What I think is weird is people buying into the candyland fantasy of us WANTING democracy in the Middle East. Why the fuck would we want democracy in the middle east???

 

I'm no genius, but I knew from day one of the "Democracy in Middle East Parade", if you gave them the right to determine their own future through voting............. they were gonna choose a path that is, shall we say, not in the best interests of US or Israel. It's not shocking in the least, and I think its fairly pathetic that we seem to have been caught by surprise with our pants down.

 

Now of course, we can't go out and start giving aid to HAMAS, and they're not going to disarm and renounce their creed or whatever, and the people aren't going to suddenly turn on Hamas, because wtf, they voted them in, in elections that WE PUSHED them to do.

What a great message: "Democracy: Pick Who We Want or you're fucked." How is that going to win any hearts and minds, and how is that all much better than a dictatorship or islamofascist gov?

 

And yet, you can hardly blame us for being pissed about fucking Hamas in charge and wanting it changed.

 

So basically, a bad Middle East situation has just been made worse. *claps*

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yes, exactly. What has to be remembered is that most of the Muslim countries are still in a stage of barbarism. I don't think you can look at their countries and compare them to the US, and say that they are at the same level of civilization as the West. We need to quit pretending that we can deal with them in the same way as our more civilized allies.

 

Just look at their reaction to those political cartoons in Europe. They're burning down embassies. Their societies can't deal with things in a reasoned manner, for the most part.

[Art Sandusky 0]

We really should avoid calling them less civilized or barbaric. They're just as far along as us in every way except the concept of a secular world. Different, not worse. This sort of underestimation has also lead to the sort of mess the West is in when dealing with the Arab world.

[Guest]

The reactions over the cartoons further along the stereotype that they are less civilized and barbaric. Just sayin'.

[Art Sandusky 0]

And Europeans, along with Latin America, have riots over soccer games.

[Guest]

That's incredibly stupid as well, but I don't think they throw shit at embassies. That's what I have a problem with.

 

All that these Muslims are doing is leading to more hate against them, but they do feel that everyone hates them as well. This reaction to a CARTOON that was originally published months ago just fuels the fire and the belief in the Western world that these people are savages.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Maybe I'm ambivalent towards all this because the brewing storm in our own hemisphere is a hell of a lot more troubling and we seem to be ignoring it.

[Guest]

I think it's troubling, but nowhere near the problem that this is. This is going on all over the world, not just in this country.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Why are people just now getting angry about the cartoon?

 

Because of our "buddies" in Saudi Arabia.

 

The Saudi government was taking a lot of flak because its poor planning leads to hundreds of pilgrims getting stampeded to death every year. To take focus off of the hajj debacle, the government declared jihad on the Danish press over the old cartoons and, voila, manufactured outrage courtesy of our "partners in peace".

[Art Sandusky 0]

I think it's troubling, but nowhere near the problem that this is. This is going on all over the world, not just in this country.

I dunno man, at least *most* of the Muslim troublemakers are still outside halls of administrative power. Meanwhile in Central and South America, their actual governments are the hostile ones, and the sentiment doesn't appear to be losing any steam.

[Guest]

From here

-Oct. 12: Ambassadors from 10 predominantly Muslim countries and the Palestinian representative in Denmark send a letter demanding a meeting with Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen and urging him "to take all those responsible to task."

 

-Oct. 21: Fogh Rasmussen declines to meet the ambassadors, saying "the offended party may bring such acts or expressions to court."

 

-Oct. 28: A coalition of Danish Muslim groups files a criminal complaint against Jyllands-Posten. A regional prosecutor investigates the complaint but decides not to press charges.

 

-December-January: The Danish Muslim coalition tours the Middle East seeking support from religious and political leaders.

 

-Jan. 1, 2006: Fogh Rasmussen condemns any expression or action that "attempts to demonize groups of people on the basis of their religion or ethnic background" but reiterates Denmark's commitment to freedom of speech.

 

-Jan. 4: Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa protests the publication.

 

-Jan. 10: A Christian newspaper in Norway, Magazinet, reprints the cartoons.

 

-Jan. 25: Religious leaders in Saudi Arabia demand that Jyllands-Posten be punished.

 

-Jan. 26: Saudi Arabia withdraws its ambassador from Denmark to protest the caricatures. Danish companies in Saudi Arabia report consumers were boycotting Danish goods and supermarket chains were removing Danish products from the shelves. In the following days, protests against Denmark spread across the Middle East.

 

-Jan 30: In a statement published on its web page, Jyllands-Posten said it regretted it had offended Muslims and apologized to them, but stood by its decision to print the cartoons, saying it was within Danish law.

 

-Jan. 31: Fogh Rasmussen calls on all sides to refrain from further aggravating the dispute. Later that day, the Danish Muslims group demands a clearer apology from the newspaper, saying the apology posted on the website was "ambiguous."

 

-Late January-early February: Media in France, Germany, the United States, Britain, Iceland, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, Hungary, Greenland, Bulgaria, Portugal and Jordan reprint the cartoons.

to here is when it went wrong for the most part. The bolded part just further incited it.

 

I dunno man, at least *most* of the Muslim troublemakers are still outside halls of administrative power. Meanwhile in Central and South America, their actual governments are the hostile ones, and the sentiment doesn't appear to be losing any steam.

For now. There are Muslim governments like the one in Sudan that murders Christians and animists in the south, but we all know this. I think shit's about to hit the fan in South America too, so we'll see how it's going to play out. I don't like any of this.

 

Before this, it was becoming clear that there was a possibility that a wedge would be driven between the US and Europe, and now with this violence, I strongly doubt that will happen as hate in Europe will now increase against Muslims.

[Justice 0]

Why are people just now getting angry about the cartoon?

 

Because of our "buddies" in Saudi Arabia.

 

The Saudi government was taking a lot of flak because its poor planning leads to hundreds of pilgrims getting stampeded to death every year. To take focus off of the hajj debacle, the government declared jihad on the Danish press over the old cartoons and, voila, manufactured outrage courtesy of our "partners in peace".

 

*Sighs*

 

Worst mistake ever.

[The Czech Republic 0]

They're just as far along as us in every way except the concept of a secular world.

You make "the concept of a secular world" sound like a minor setback.

[Art Sandusky 0]

It isn't minor, but the perception is somehow still that they're somehow not as far along as the West in terms of technology and all the other goodies that come along with civilization, especially when using terminology like "barbaric" or "backwards."

[Guest]

In the Middle East at least, they aren't as far as the West in technological resources. They're about 200 years behind the adaptation curve in the Western World, Christians had to do it, why can't they?

[Guest InuYasha]

The Spanish Inquisition was instituted in the late 1400's/early 1500's.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

 

In a societal view today, we look upon this subject with horror, disgust, and condemnation. Yet these kind of things are happening every day in the Muslim world, yet we shrug and say, "they have different values than us."

 

Fuck different values! You're talking about a part of the world where men can beat women to death on the sidewalk, and no one passing by will even give a shit. Now you've got a group of people elected to serve as the government of a nation, that violently calls for the death of all Jews worldwide, as far as I understand it.

 

The first time the new Hamas-run Palestinian run gov't fucks with Israel, Israel will bomb them even closer back to the Stone Age. Then, all the other Muslim countires will step in, claiming to defend the honor and legacy of the Islamic faith; nevermind the fact that the Judeo-Christian faith is almost 4 times as old as Islam is.

 

No; the only way there will ever be peace in this world is the complete obliteration of the Islamic faith. Notice I said the faith, not the followers of it.

[Guest]

I know that's right, but I'll state that it won't happen for a few more years. It's also something I won't discuss further.

 

The only reason that this is even a problem is because they just won't adapt to society as we now know it.