The great Money matches that Could have been...

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

There was also something in one his newsletters years ago (or mabye it was WreslingClassics) about Vince being in attendance for one of the early Hogan-Flair matches that drew well and had insane heat. After the match, he turned to one of his associates and remarked that if people were so into this match, imagine how much money Hogan-Undertaker would make.

 

Vince never saw Hogan-Flair as anything special. He has always had the mentality that his fans are WWF fans and nothing from WCW mattered unless he told them it mattered. It's just something we have to accept about the guy.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Here’s some additional Money Matches that I don’t believe were mentioned just yet.

 

Bret Hart Vs Hulk Hogan

-This could have been done in two different circumstances and each time could have gained something significant.

 

Instead politics reigned and we just received utter stupidity and witnessed Hart’s career get flushed by silly cliché antics.

Apart from the no-contest deal on Nitro that spawned into Hogan vs. Sting, Hart and Hogan actually did wrestle three proper matches in WCW. It was on three house shows in late August of 1999, on the 20th, 21st and 22nd. Randy Savage had one of his infamous tantrums and pulled himself off the house show run. On the 19th, Bischoff called Bret up and told him he was going to sub for Savage on the house shows against Hogan. The matches were ok, went about 10 minutes, and all ended in a no-contest when Sid Vicious and Rick Steiner ran in. A bunch of other people ran in to, including Goldberg and Sting, and the whole thing ended with Goldberg spearing a bunch of people.

[Hawk 34 0]

That might be the case, but it should have been an actual program building to a big PPV showdown because it was money if done correctly.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I agree it should have been built to on a PPV. At point early in 1999, Bischoff was wanting the match for Halloween Havoc that year, but with Nash in charge, the idea got shockingly dropped.

[iliketurtles 0]

After watching the Rhodes DVD, I think a heel Dusty Rhodes vs. a face Hulk Hogan in 1990 would of done big business.

[The Mountie 0]

Hulk vs Bret. That was WCW's natural successor to the Hogan vs Sting feud. The seeds were event planted in the Hogan/Sting 'blowoff' match, but then of course that turned out not to be the blowout at all and the momentum petered out.

[Guest Overworked]

I just re watched the Goldberg Lesnar match and still it is sad. What really sabotaged that match was Lesnar's reaction to the crowd and basically brought the match down from there, from what I saw Goldberg didn't do anything wrong nor provoked the crowd, nor did he seem to assist in the stall game more than he was just wondering what the hell Brock was doing. Both men came in tainted no question, but at least Goldberg didn't do as Brock did and try to screw the match up because people were booing him. Thats what i'll say for that Griping Non Wrestler.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Dusty Rhodes in WWF was a really weird case. Obviously he was still a big name in parts of the country, but, personally our family didn't have cable in 1990, so I'd never heard of him until he came to WWF. To me, he just looked like some fat middle aged guy, and I just didn't get his appeal at all. But, he still was apparently quite over in parts of the country, so I'm surprised WWF didn't use him in more of a main event role, at least part of the time during his run there.

 

I'm sure Vince just didn't want to push a WCW guy on top, though.

 

You could say basically the same things about Ron Garvin in WWF.

[Bruce Blank 0]

Well to be fair you can't compare Dusty and Ron Garvin though, exposure wise, fan wise, charisma wise etc Dusty had Ron smoked - Ron just had the "Well no one else wants to be a lame duck champion" reign and otherwise just a mid-card career.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

WCW, early 1993:

 

Scott Steiner, one of the best wrestlers on the planet, and new heel

 

Vs.

 

Sting, one of the best wrestlers on the planet, and over babyface

__________

 

Sadly, Scotty jumped to the WWF in late 92 right when his heel turn began and this never was. Woulda been awesome, though.

[Man Who Sold The World 0]

Well, this may be way late but it could still happen:

 

Triple H vs Hulk Hogan

 

Wrestling wise? worst match of the year. Promo wise? Could be great stuff. I mean, we could go back to the start of The Game with the sledgehammer and uber-heel and you've got a main event with drawing power!

 

 

Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe. Just as a smark.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Well, this may be way late but it could still happen:

 

Triple H vs Hulk Hogan

 

Wrestling wise? worst match of the year. Promo wise? Could be great stuff. I mean, we could go back to the start of The Game with the sledgehammer and uber-heel and you've got a main event with drawing power!

 

Or we could watch the tape of Backlash 2002, when both guys still meant something.

[slabinskia 0]

I would have gone with Hogan/Austin at WM18 and Hogan/Rock at WM19. I know they went with Hogan/Vince but I never got the appeal to that match.

[Danville_Wrestling 0]

Dusty Rhodes in WWF was a really weird case. Obviously he was still a big name in parts of the country, but, personally our family didn't have cable in 1990, so I'd never heard of him until he came to WWF. To me, he just looked like some fat middle aged guy, and I just didn't get his appeal at all. But, he still was apparently quite over in parts of the country, so I'm surprised WWF didn't use him in more of a main event role, at least part of the time during his run there.

 

I think its a testament to Dusty Rhodes talent that he was able to get himself over with such a ridiculous gimmick (polka dots?!?) in his WWF run.

 

The "American Dream" theme music didn't hurt either and if the GM position ever returns to RAW I'd mark out big time if I heard it blast over the speakers. I'd do the same for DiBiase b/c I think a Million Dollar Man GM would kick serious ass.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"wow that interesting. Actually my first wwf live event was at MSG in November 1991, just days after Survivor Series (but before Tuesday In Texas so Taker was champ-though he did not wrestle on this card)in which Hogan did face Flair one on one. I don't remember much about the match other than Flair appearing to have won with the use of brass knux, but the ref reversed the decision somehow. "

 

Flair/Hogan MSG 11/91 and 12/91 are fantastic matches that should be sought out more. Flair did go over Hogan cleanly with the brass knuckles at 11/91, I don't recall the decision being reversed on the tape but I could be wrong.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Personally, I don't see why Hogan vs whomever is considered to be a dream match. Unless it's Hogan against another 80's wrestler, the styles won't mix and the match would suck. Just think of the Hogan vs Angle match of last year leading to Summerslam, Hogan did a sorry-ass boot to the chest and Angle laid down on the ring for like a minute. Rock is an exception, but then again, he's a exceptional performer and could have a match with practically anybody."

 

Nonsense, a game Hogan has never been shy about taking full advantage of his opponent's bumping abilities.

 

Not to mention Hogan had excellent matches with Race for crying out loud, who is a vastly superior offensive worker than Angle could ever dream of being. And yes, Race got use to his trademark Piledrivers, Belly to Belly Suplex, Gut Wrench Suplex...etc. And Hogan certainly had no problem throwing Race around.

 

Hogan also pushed 91 Flair pretty far bumping wise, at one pointing dumping him on the floor with a Backdrop Driver. If Angle wanted to take that bump, I don't think Hogan would veto it though his matches had a bit of a"best of" vibe to them during his last run where he only used the nostaglic Wrestlemania spots. However I do recall him working in the Rock's bumps and spots like the run into the Chokeslam, Rock Bottom, and Scorpion Deathlock to keep up.

 

I don't mean to create the impression Hogan was a great offensive worker as that really wasn't one of his strengths but I've rarely seen him let a good bumper get away during his better motivated performances. Come on, he Superplexed the Bossman off a cage regularly.

[Guest Overworked]

"Personally, I don't see why Hogan vs whomever is considered to be a dream match. Unless it's Hogan against another 80's wrestler, the styles won't mix and the match would suck. Just think of the Hogan vs Angle match of last year leading to Summerslam, Hogan did a sorry-ass boot to the chest and Angle laid down on the ring for like a minute. Rock is an exception, but then again, he's a exceptional performer and could have a match with practically anybody."

 

Nonsense, a game Hogan has never been shy about taking full advantage of his opponent's bumping abilities.

 

Not to mention Hogan had excellent matches with Race for crying out loud, who is a vastly superior offensive worker than Angle could ever dream of being. And yes, Race got use to his trademark Piledrivers, Belly to Belly Suplex, Gut Wrench Suplex...etc. And Hogan certainly had no problem throwing Race around.

 

Hogan also pushed 91 Flair pretty far bumping wise, at one pointing dumping him on the floor with a Backdrop Driver. If Angle wanted to take that bump, I don't think Hogan would veto it though his matches had a bit of a"best of" vibe to them during his last run where he only used the nostaglic Wrestlemania spots. However I do recall him working in the Rock's bumps and spots like the run into the Chokeslam, Rock Bottom, and Scorpion Deathlock to keep up.

 

I don't mean to create the impression Hogan was a great offensive worker as that really wasn't one of his strengths but I've rarely seen him let a good bumper get away during his better motivated performances. Come on, he Superplexed the Bossman off a cage regularly.

 

 

In case of a Hogan you would have to go with a "Money Match" than a Dream match. Obviously his wrestling ability is at best Middle of the road to usually punch kick little more than nothing.

 

You would have to look at the prospects of a Hogan match not for skills vs skills but Icon vs Icon. Which is why Andre vs Hulk was so memoriable not because of the wrestling, but because of the hype that was built on both men that it was Entertaining despite itself.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"In case of a Hogan you would have to go with a "Money Match" than a Dream match. Obviously his wrestling ability is at best Middle of the road to usually punch kick little more than nothing. "

 

I'm not sure how you define wrestling ability but:

 

Hogan was a borderline great face worker. He didn't use a great deal of high impact offense because he came into his own in the AWA working with minimal offensive workers like Bockwinkle who used movement, simple story telling, drama and character to make their matches compelling. He didn't bump a great deal because he's the face and this was the time when the heels were there to put the face over and not themselves. He no sold and used pissed off comebacks because that's what most major faces were doing than, including the best face worker of the era, Lawler. Mat skills? Have dick to do with producing a great match in pro wrestling, if hammerlocks regardless of the context get you off that's fine but it's not how the industry works.

 

I enjoy the urgency and feeling of importance Hogan brought to his better matches, his ability to make it look like he really takes it personal when he get's fucked over by a heel, and his understanding of simple but effective storytelling. I know his career had some terrible low points and his heights aren't the highest, but he has some really great face performances, as well as fun matches against guys like John Studd and Bossman who were incredibly unimpressive workers when he faced them.

 

Not including his excellent matches with Bockwinkle/Adonis since their obviously working their match, I'm a big fan of Hogan's work in the following matches:

 

vs. Shultz 84 "Minn. Massacre"

vs. Funk SNME 86

vs. Race MSG 87

vs. Race SNME 88

vs. Flair MSG 11/91

vs. Flair MSG 12/91

 

If you don't like these matches, you just don't get it.

 

"You would have to look at the prospects of a Hogan match not for skills vs skills but Icon vs Icon. "

 

Boxing matches are skills vs. skills. Wrestling has nothing to do with actual wrestling skill, it's about an understanding of how to engage the viewer.

 

 

"Which is why Andre vs Hulk was so memoriable not because of the wrestling, but because of the hype that was built on both men that it was Entertaining despite itself."

 

Hogan/Andre is memroable because it's a good match, but let's not get into that thread again.

 

edit-rant was way too long.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Some people don't like poorly wrestled matches just because they're loosely put together with a face vs. heel dynamic. Hogan vs. Schultz had nothing going for it, unless you dig matches with any semblance of a face vs. heel story, no matter how poorly and vaguely it was done. If you think all a great match needs is a vague storyline, horrible looking offense and cartoonish selling, good for you. Being a prick about it and saying others don't get it is just inviting people to flame you for being stupid though.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"Some people don't like poorly wrestled matches just because they're loosely put together with a face vs. heel dynamic. "

 

Good for them.

 

 

"Hogan vs. Schultz had nothing going for it, unless you dig matches with any semblance of a face vs. heel story, no matter how poorly and vaguely it was done. If you think all a great match needs is a vague storyline, horrible looking offense and cartoonish selling, good for you. "

 

Very fun match, reminds a great deal of Lyger/Sammy. Hogan getting dicked over, bloodied and taunted for the first half or so is just gold. I don't think there's a single comeback tease, he's just getting beat and choked down without any attempt at fighting back. And the comeback is such a high point with Hogan freaking out and pulling Schultz up for more punishment over and over again. I like cartoons but I really didn't find this match to be very cartoonish. Horrible looking offense, meh it looked fine to me. They keep it too simple to fuck anything up and Shultz elbowdrop wipeouts are brutal. Vague story? Come on, it's a pretty simple "Give and take" match. Shultz ambushes Hogan and humilates him, get's too confident, Hogan get's pissed, get's payback, Shultz gets a fluke opening but it's not enough to turn the tide. Nothing abstract about that.

 

"Being a prick about it and saying others don't get it is just inviting people to flame you for being stupid though."

 

The only person being a prick here is you. I'm not gonna call anybody stupid for not liking a Hogan match but if somebody wants to call me stupid for enjoying his matches, their more than welcome to waste their time. Hopefully, whoever else choses to respond will attack the post and poster.

[World's Worst Man 0]

"If you don't like these matches, you just don't get it."

 

Yea, that's so much better than just calling people stupid for not liking something. What a prick I am to criticise you for acting arrogant.

 

But whatever, if people want to express the virtues of routine things and claim a minute of control and a 30 second comeback (not literally, but close enough) constitutes a heel beatdown and face comeback, by all means.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"If you don't like these matches, you just don't get it."

 

Yea, that's so much better than just calling people stupid for not liking something. What a prick I am to criticise you for acting arrogant.

 

I'm not gonna argue with you and drag this off topic.

 

I was merely saying that I think the matches speak for themselves, if you don't like them there's nothing else I can do to convince you. I'm not trying to look down on anybody, so chill out.

[Guest wildpegasus]

CS is right on the money about Hogan being underrated. It's nice to see someone defending him. Some of his stuff was hard to watch but when he was motivated he could bring the goods.

 

WP -- Kind of a hulkamaniac

[Coffin Surfer 0]

"But whatever, if people want to express the virtues of routine things and claim a minute of control and a 30 second comeback (not literally, but close enough) constitutes a heel beatdown and face comeback, by all means."

 

Truth be told I'm incredibly curious as to what it is about Shultz/Hogan that doesn't seem to appeal to most people on the internet. I'm very open to hear what you disliked about the match outside of insults and vague comments like the one above that doesn't even really leave me with the impression you saw the match in question. I found nothing about the match routine(especially for Hogan), which is why it stood out for me.

 

A minute of control? I thought the match had a good peril(which obviously lasts longer than a minute..even in clipped form) with Shultz using some varied throat offense to keep Hogan choked out, as well as mixing in chair shots...etc. For my money, it's much better done than Savage's grab a hold and wait for heat approach against Hogan at Wrestlemania V. Shultz also did a reasonable job of playing a grumpy dick, a far cry from the usual chicken stooge approach Race, Funk, Savage, and Flair played against the Hulkster. Also interesting how they bypass the typical hot face start with Hogan not getting any offense until the climatic comeback.

 

30 second comeback? Wha. Yet another non-rountine aspect of the match is how they expand beyond the short face comeback/finish with Hogan pulling Shultz up from all of his finishers at the time like the Axe Bomber and Leg Drop to continue to control and eventually let Shultz work in what looked like a fluke comeback and win. I don't have to tell you how rare it is for a Hogan match to expand beyond the big comeback, let alone let the heel survive the Axebomber or Legdrop and take over one last time. Not routine at all. Hell, most US matches at the time weren't worked like this outside of some of Lawler's epics(who is vastly superior at this btw), if there are I would love to see them.

 

Of course this trivial things don't even make the match what it is, if it wasn't for the Hulk acting like it was the most important match of his career and reacting so strongly during the comeback and payback run it wouldn't have worked nearly as well as it did. Compare this to Jumbo/Brody from say 83 if you've seen it. The midportion of the match is worked very similiar and Jumbo's payback run as brilliant as it isn't nearly as effective as Hogan's revenge sequence. Now, Jumbo is light years beyond Hogan as a worker and performer in every aspect but in this instance Hogan played the poed face niche better. Hope that doesn't open a can of worms as Jumbo is one of my favorite workers ever.

 

Sorry for the rant but I'm puzzled as to how Hogan/Shultz can spur such strong emotions yet no-one ever seems to express their opinions beyond the stuff you wrote, which looks more like a criticism of Hogan's Wrestlemania forumla and WCW run. If you don't wish to respond or revisit the match that's cool, I just had to get that out there.

 

Sorry this turned into a Hogan thread but it was heading that way before I got here.

[World's Worst Man 0]

For one thing, the match was wrestled at an absolute snail's pace. Do a weak forehead to the back, stand there for a few seconds, do the same thing, stand there for a few seconds, throw a punch. If this was anything resembling good offense, it would have been fine. You know, time for selling and all that. For such poor, low-end offense, it was just mind-numbing. Schultz hits an elbow from the middle rope, and literally takes 15 seconds to go for a cover. There's a heel gloating when he thinks he's won the match, and there's stalling for 15 seconds doing nothing before going for a pin. Just excruciating stuff like that. The obligatory Hogan no-selling comeback is present of course. Cartoonish bullshit that I certainly don't want to see, and it pretty much brings down every match I see it in. And I don't particularly care that it was a staple of Hogan's, or whatever other argument you want to make. It's ridiculous and business exposing.

 

The best part of the match was as you mentioned, that Hogan's big comeback doesn't spell the end of Schultz' chances. But you say Hogan acted like it was the most important match of his career? I suppose that's why he pulled Schultz up from a pin, twice? Once after he had hit his finisher no less. In this particular match, that just doesn't make much sense.

 

The match being clipped as it is makes it impossible to know whether the FIP sections were any good. From what was shown (and that's what we really have to go off of, not a guess as to what happened in the parts that weren't shown), there wasn't nearly enough of it for me to consider this match being anything even approacing good. A basic, short FIP sequence, which featured some lame looking offense and stalling, and Hogan's no-selling comeback. Then a decent change of pace where Schultz ended up having one last chance after Hogan's comeback. I don't know what your exact judgement of the match was, but I thought it was a passable match, so it's not like I'm saying it was some awful contest. But given how little the match offered and how clipped it was, I fail to see how anyone considers it good in the grand scheme of things, unless their standards are just incredibly low. I don't mean that as a dig, it's just the best way I can explain it. I see most of what you're saying, I just don't see how that translates into anything more than passable.

 

On Hogan, he could work his formula, of that there is no doubt. Unfortunately, his formula pretty much sucked. His selling was over the top and silly, his offense generally sucked (both execution wise [important] and variety [not so much]) and his matches were just so, so basic (in terms of story). In my eyes, that puts a pretty harsh limit on how good his matches could ever be. Kind of like post-97 Steve Austin, although Austin at least had better selling, and his matches weren't quite as formulaic and ridiculous.

[Tully316 0]

I would have loved to see the fued bewtween the Hollywood Blonds an the Horsemen develop in to a singles feud with Flair and Austin. Those would have been some classics.

 

Also, Pillman and Austin feuding in the WWF before Pillman's death would have lead to some great stuff

[Coffin Surfer 0]

I can't convince you to like the match nor will I try, but if I may retort:

 

"Schultz hits an elbow from the middle rope, and literally takes 15 seconds to go for a cover. There's a heel gloating when he thinks he's won the match, and there's stalling for 15 seconds doing nothing before going for a pin. "

 

I fail to see how fucking with a game as hell crowd is a flaw, the apex of the peril segment before the comeback. Schultz is really letting the heat sink in as I even recall spit balls being thrown. It's up to the viewer to rate matches or workers best on crowd particpation, but we can't pretend they are not performing for a live crowd and fault them for it.

 

"The obligatory Hogan no-selling comeback is present of course."

 

Yeah, but it's after your "15 seconds of stalling."

 

"Cartoonish bullshit that I certainly don't want to see, and it pretty much brings down every match I see it in."

 

Here it's cool pay off that plays off Schultz gloating and taunting Hogan too much, foolishly pissing the Hulk off while giving him time to recover.

 

"It's ridiculous and business exposing."

 

Your a Misawa fan I take it. Big fan as well. Ever watched 10/92(GREAT match), pay attention to Misawa's comebacks. Obviously he was a more subtle performer than Hogan, so he's not making freak out faces. Though he does do the pissed, your strikes mean shit to me, I'm taking your head off comeback at least twice in this match. He doesn't even have the benefit of stalling to set it up. It's a characteristic of most faces everywhere, though Hogan started taking it to the extreme late in his 80s run. Seriously, it's like faulting Flair for begging off.

 

"suppose that's why he pulled Schultz up from a pin, twice? Once after he had hit his finisher no less. In this particular match, that just doesn't make much sense."

 

It makes perfect sense and it's the high point of the match, a good twist that helps make the match more special. It's not hard to figure out that Hogan is pissed about Schultz dicking him over for the first half of the match, he doesn't just want to win he wants to get even. Again, this isn't abstract stuff.

 

"The match being clipped as it is makes it impossible to know whether the FIP sections were any good. "

 

It's a problem indeed. However, it does look like it's just the old WWF flash clipping that moves things along a little faster. Just cutting out stuff like the guys rolling into the ring and what not. Though I must make it clear that my opinion is based off what's there, though I do refrain from giving it a precise rating or placement. I often just list it around ****+.

 

"I don't know what your exact judgement of the match was, but I thought it was a passable match, so it's not like I'm saying it was some awful contest"

 

Next to what I've seen with his work against Bockwinkle, it's the best Hogan match I've ever seen. Probably one of my favorite Vince era WWF matches though I feel it's below a level or perhaps two behind Jericho/Rock, Henning/Hart 93, Austin/Rock, Owen/Bret, and what's available of Savage/Adonis vs.Bruno/Santana.

 

"his offense generally sucked (both execution wise [important] and variety [not so much]) "

 

His Backdrop Suplex(which is very pretty), Leg Drop, Back Breaker, Axe Bomber, the Headlock/Hammerlock/Toe Hold combo and even the Boot are actually very well executed moves. Hogan kept it simple and tight, so there's really not much to fuck up. Outside of maybe his 91 series with Flair, Hansen, and Race, he didn't work too stiff though and in his lazier performances he didn't commit that much to his punches. His floor Backdrop Driver on Flair is actually very nice looking, brutal yet completey safe.

But yeah, Hogan isn't no Benoit or even a Luger in the offense department. Not exactly something I would use to pimp Hogan though again, he didn't let great bumpers go to waste.

 

"matches were just so, so basic (in terms of story). "

 

That you evidently failed to even grasp if you were baffled by "pulling Schultz up from the finishers" bit. (wink, wink)

 

Would you also label the storytelling in Lyger/Sammy (one of the greatest matches of all time) as "basic/simple" as both it and Schultz/Hogan tell a very similiar story, finding success with similar dramatic devices. Of course Hogan doesn't pull off a Moonsault to the floor and a Top Rope DDT....

[Guest Arnold_OldSchool]

Bruno vs Backlund 79 or 80.

 

Or If Sr and Bruno were really feeling game... Bruno vs Backlund Sept 81 (Bruno's retirement month) Have the 2nd annual Shea Stadium card and headline Bruno vs Backlund Career vs title

[hbkhhhmark4life 0]

Forgive me if slightly off topic, but what about HBK vs Sting? I would have like to have seen that

[Jericholic82 0]

"wow that interesting. Actually my first wwf live event was at MSG in November 1991, just days after Survivor Series (but before Tuesday In Texas so Taker was champ-though he did not wrestle on this card)in which Hogan did face Flair one on one. I don't remember much about the match other than Flair appearing to have won with the use of brass knux, but the ref reversed the decision somehow. "

 

Flair/Hogan MSG 11/91 and 12/91 are fantastic matches that should be sought out more. Flair did go over Hogan cleanly with the brass knuckles at 11/91, I don't recall the decision being reversed on the tape but I could be wrong.

they are showing the match on msg classics this week so Ill be sure to watch and see