NLCS: St. Louis Cardinals vs. New York Mets

[vivalaultra 0]

So Taguchi...He'll getcha every time.

[strummer 0]

Enter Suckass.

 

 

Oh come on he was bound to give a run sooner or later. No pitcher is perfect. Still uptight about a fucking song?

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Wow Wagner just didn't have his best stuff tonight. Tough break for him and the Mets.

[NYU 0]

Yeah, Billy Wagner is one of the best closers in baseball.

 

Fucking know-nothings. Next time listen to me when I say something.

[Brett Favre 0]

Enter Suckass.

 

 

Oh come on he was bound to give a run sooner or later. No pitcher is perfect. Still uptight about a fucking song?

 

Three runs though? He got smacked around.

[naiwf 0]

Life sucks right about now. Wagner, Mota & Maine just cost us the series. Woo.

 

It's game two and it's not even over.

 

We just lost our closer for tomorrow with this 105 pitch performance, Mota got rocked, Steve Trachsel is pitching Game 3 and Oliver Perez is pitching Game 4. St. Louis would have to try really hard not to have a 3-1 series lead in 2 days. We should have won this game, beaten Carpenter, and broken the Cards, instead Wagner shit the bed, we have nothing resembling starting pitching for the next two games and the bullpen is taxed.

[Brett Favre 0]

The Cardinals suck though. They probably won't get more than 10 hits combined in the next two days, like they always do sometimes.

[NYU 0]

It's not looking good for tomorrow. I could have accepted the Mets losing if Carpenter pitched a great game tonight. He didn't. The Mets needed to capitalize on that because the odds aren't great that Carpenter is going to have ANOTHER bad game later in the series. They had no right losing this game.

 

And whether it's Billy Wagner, Braden Looper, or Armando Benitez, the Mets are doomed to have a pitcher that will always fucking choke in the big time.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Very supportive of Mets fans to boo the man who saved dozens of games for them.

 

I don't care for either team, but when the Cards are rolling, they're fun to watch.

[naiwf 0]

Very supportive of Mets fans to boo the man who saved dozens of games for them.

 

I don't care for either team, but when the Cards are rolling, they're fun to watch.

 

Should we cheer Wagner blowing the biggest game of 2006? No one cares about the regular season saves he managed to notch, many of which were of the 2 or 3 run variety. We're not supporting the Cubs here buddy.

[Brett Favre 0]

lol.

 

Now's not the time to start giving out free passes, but lets not go crazy and compare Wagner to Benitez and Looper here.

[Guest Felonies!]

We're not supporting the Cubs here buddy.

 

I don't know, man, this bullpen gives me flashbacks.

[NYU 0]

Very supportive of Mets fans to boo the man who saved dozens of games for them.

 

I don't care for either team, but when the Cards are rolling, they're fun to watch.

 

You're a fucking idiot.

 

That's a closer's job. To save games. The important AND unimportant ones. Wagner has done an excellent job of saving the regular, inconsequential games throughout the season. But when the important ones come up...when the Mets need to maintain a 6-6 lead heading into the 9th inning in the NLCS....or a 4-0 lead heading into the ninth inning against the crosstown rival Yankees....he blows it. He can't be depended on in important, tense games and tonight only further proved that point.

 

You really sound fucking clueless when you continue to insist that Mets fans shouldn't boo Wagner. Especially after what he did tonight.

[snuffbox 0]

Fucking Cards.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Very supportive of Mets fans to boo the man who saved dozens of games for them.

 

I don't care for either team, but when the Cards are rolling, they're fun to watch.

 

You're a fucking idiot.

 

That's a closer's job. To save games. The important AND unimportant ones. Wagner has done an excellent job of saving the regular, inconsequential games throughout the season. But when the important ones come up...when the Mets need to maintain a 6-6 lead heading into the 9th inning in the NLCS....or a 4-0 lead heading into the ninth inning against the crosstown rival Yankees....he blows it. He can't be depended on in important, tense games and tonight only further proved that point.

 

You really sound fucking clueless when you continue to insist that Mets fans shouldn't boo Wagner. Especially after what he did tonight.

A bit high-strung, are we? I like how you say I'm clueless and insist Wagner can't be counted on to close out important games, despite the fact that he has saves in three of the four Met's postseason victories so far. Even the better closers blow game; it happens. But why shit all over the guy for it? You act as if it's a common thing.

 

And I've mentioned the Mets fans booing him, uh, once. How do you continue something you're doing for the first time?

[devo 0]

Infuriating game. Carpenter was the biggest concern going into the contest and the Mets basically jumped all over him, scoring five runs in five innings. Maine's start was disappointing, but hell, he pitched virtually as well as Carpenter, giving up three earned in four innings. It was amazing the shift the Mets' offense took when the Cardinals bullpen came in. All of a sudden, guys are swinging at first pitches and barely even challenging a pen that was put into a tough position.

 

On the other hand, we have the Mets relievers, who displayed some of the worst pitch selection I've ever witnessed. Three times Mota and Wagner had their opponents 0-2, and the results? Two-run triple that only stayed in the park thanks to the efforts of Shawn Green, solo HR, RBI double. It's as though the entire team said, "Okay, we've got the lead, let's get this over with." Really, really disappointing.

 

In any case, I'm not going to get too upset over it, since the Mets were basically slated for a loss tonight anyway. Six innings of work from Trachsel tomorrow should be enough to rejuvenate the bullpen, so let's hope that he can get that far against a spotty Cardinals offense. Mets will still take this series, though I'm thinking it might take 'em six games now.

[alfdogg 0]

Fight nice, kids.

[strummer 0]

DUSTY~!!~~!! on analysis on BTN

[NYU 0]

A bit high-strung, are we? I like how you say I'm clueless and insist Wagner can't be counted on to close out important games, despite the fact that he has saves in three of the four Met's postseason victories so far. Even the better closers blow game; it happens. But why shit all over the guy for it? You act as if it's a common thing.

 

And I've mentioned the Mets fans booing him, uh, once. How do you continue something you're doing for the first time?

 

Wagner has a knack for blowing the close, important games. He really does seem to suffer from the Benitez syndrome. Wagner saved an important game last night, granted, but with the comfort of a 2-run lead. His games against the Dodgers: he nearly blew a 2-run lead in Game 1 allowing an RBI double to Ramon Martinez before finishing it at 6-5, he closed a 4-1 lead in Game 2, and he closed a 9-5 lead in Game 3. If he would have blown Games 2 or 3, he should have hung up his cleats immediately after walking off the field. Those two weren't exactly high-pressure situations, but rather comfortable leads. The REAL close, high-pressure situations he walks into, he gives up a run or two and comes close to blowing it -- as he did in Game 1 against the Dodgers and a good number of times during the season -- or just outright ruins it as he did tonight. He is not good in stressful situations and he should absolutely not be relied on in tie games like Randolph did tonight. It's a shame he is paid this much money for producing like any average closer could.

 

And for the record, you made similar comments in the Dodgers/Mets thread when I knocked Wagner's ability, and I ignored that the first time around. But there's only so many times one can turn a blind eye to Wagner choking in the clutch.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

The point is, he's saved every game in the postseason in which there's been the opportunity. Why is preserving the lead not good enough? Is it really that horrible to have a guy who saved 40 regular season game and posted a 2.24 ERA? Is it? Because there are plenty of teams who would love to take that terrible burden off your hands.

 

And for the record, you made similar comments in the Dodgers/Mets thread when I knocked Wagner's ability, and I ignored that the first time around. But there's only so many times one can turn a blind eye to Wagner choking in the clutch.

Well, at least you got the "blind eye" part right. Unless by "you" you meant "cheech." The only Wagner-related comment I made in that thread was the disbelief that anyone still cares about him using "Enter Sandman." Your copy of the record seems to be defective.

 

Wagner has just been awful in these tense situations all season and he doesn't get nearly enough shit for it.

 

Yes, it is about time we start giving more shit to guys with an ERA+ of 195, a K/BB ratio of 94/21 and a 95% save conversion rate. That's downright awful.

[naiwf 0]

The point is, he's saved every game in the postseason in which there's been the opportunity. Why is preserving the lead not good enough? Is it really that horrible to have a guy who saved 40 regular season game and posted a 2.24 ERA? Is it? Because there are plenty of teams who would love to take that terrible burden off your hands.

 

And for the record, you made similar comments in the Dodgers/Mets thread when I knocked Wagner's ability, and I ignored that the first time around. But there's only so many times one can turn a blind eye to Wagner choking in the clutch.

Well, at least you got the "blind eye" part right. Unless by "you" you meant "cheech." The only Wagner-related comment I made in that thread was the disbelief that anyone still cares about him using "Enter Sandman." Your copy of the record seems to be defective.

 

Wagner has just been awful in these tense situations all season and he doesn't get nearly enough shit for it.

 

Yes, it is about time we start giving more shit to guys with an ERA+ of 195, a K/BB ratio of 94/21 and a 95% save conversion rate. That's downright awful.

 

Dude, he blew the game tonight. No Mets fan would care if he'd been Eric Gagne automatic in the regular season and blown tonight's game. I don't see what's so hard to understand. 1 NLCS blown game is not erased because he saved 40 regular season ones, especially when he blew up in that Yankee game before this one. Thus far he's choked in the 2 biggest opportunities he's had in a Mets uniform. You don't really have a foot to stand on when he's 0-1 with a 7.71 ERA in the postseason and owns the only loss the team has. If he gets beat by Pujols, so be it. But So Fucking Taguchi? C'mon.

[NYU 0]

The point is, he's saved every game in the postseason in which there's been the opportunity. Why is preserving the lead not good enough? Is it really that horrible to have a guy who saved 40 regular season game and posted a 2.24 ERA? Is it? Because there are plenty of teams who would love to take that terrible burden off your hands.

 

Well, let's not argue semantics. He didn't waste a lead tonight -- he just ruined a tied game. It's still blowing the game either way, so he's not getting a free pass for that one. And yes, I would like Wagner to at least seem in control in some of his more important games. Many times, such as Game 1 against the Dodgers for example, he looks very shaky. He puts men on base. He allows runs that keep him shy of just blowing the game. If this was an average closer with a low salary, then that would be acceptable. But for the money Wagner is getting -- and for the legacy he supposedly carried with himself from Philadelphia -- it's underwhelming and disappointing. You could see the shots of the crowd in Shea when Wagner comes out. Mets fans don't trust him. They don't trust him in high-pressure situaitons just as they didn't trust Benitez when he came out during those same times.

 

Is it horrible to have a guy who saved 40 regular season games and posted a 2.24 ERA? If that was all we signed the guy up for, then of course not. But he was signed to give the Mets an edge if they got in this postseason situation. He was signed to give the Mets a stable, lights-out closer. That's what a $10.5 million dollar closer is supposed to do. Not just be okay. By doing what he did tonight, he derailed the whole team's momentum with a horrid series of pitchers coming up in Trachsel and Perez next. I'm tired of Wagner being given a verbal blowjob by the media and some of the people here everytime he makes a save. He simply doesn't deserve it. He's no better than your run-of-the-mill closer.

 

And for the record, you made similar comments in the Dodgers/Mets thread when I knocked Wagner's ability, and I ignored that the first time around. But there's only so many times one can turn a blind eye to Wagner choking in the clutch.

Well, at least you got the "blind eye" part right. Unless by "you" you meant "cheech." The only Wagner-related comment I made in that thread was the disbelief that anyone still cares about him using "Enter Sandman." Your copy of the record seems to be defective.

 

Wagner has just been awful in these tense situations all season and he doesn't get nearly enough shit for it.

 

Yes, it is about time we start giving more shit to guys with an ERA+ of 195, a K/BB ratio of 94/21 and a 95% save conversion rate. That's downright awful.

 

Then that was my mistake. Sorry. Next time I'll vent my disgust towards Cheech.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

I understand being mad at the guy, but I also think there needs to be an understanding that no matter how great you are in the game of baseball, failure is a common thing.

 

Wagner's collecting a lot of money, but considering where the Mets are, I think he's been worth it. The main complaint I heard from Mets fan throughout 2005 was how the team lacked a real closer and how if Looper hadn't been closing games, the team would've been in a much better position.

 

Well, you guys got your closer and regardless of how meaningless you think those 40 saves were, the fact remains Wagner preserved 40 leads for the team this season. That's big.

 

I know the regular season doesn't matter now, but even then, Wagner's done a good job in this postseason. It's easier to dwell on the negative, but would Looper have held onto all three of those leads?

[naiwf 0]

I understand being mad at the guy, but I also think there needs to be an understanding that no matter how great you are in the game of baseball, failure is a common thing.

 

Wagner's collecting a lot of money, but considering where the Mets are, I think he's been worth it. The main complaint I heard from Mets fan throughout 2005 was how the team lacked a real closer and how if Looper hadn't been closing games, the team would've been in a much better position.

 

Well, you guys got your closer and regardless of how meaningless you think those 40 saves were, the fact remains Wagner preserved 40 leads for the team this season. That's big.

 

I know the regular season doesn't matter now, but even then, Wagner's done a good job in this postseason. It's easier to dwell on the negative, but would Looper have held onto all three of those leads?

 

No, but Wagner's not supposed to suck as much as Looper. Right now he's blown 1 of 4 chances and came awfully close to losing another of the three games he succeeded in. If that number ends up being 1 for 10 or 1 for 11 in blown outings, then he was worth the money. If this game costs the Mets the NLCS as I think it will, then he's just the next Rojas, Benitez or Looper.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Okay, you win.

 

He's horrible and can't even get a save the right way.

[NYU 0]

Finally!

 

Now can we also agree that the save statistic is bullshit? Because it's validating Wagner now when it shouldn't be.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I try and give credit to all teams, but you Met fans are quickly proving yourselves to be the most ignorant, insufferable fools I've seen since the days of Anglesault. Boo Wagner because he lost a game? He's a player on your own fucking team.

 

Newsflash, relievers give up runs. Mariano Rivera spoiled everyone into thinking there was such a thing as an easy ninth inning in the postseason. You want a postseason reliever who doesn't? John Rocker pitched 20.7 postseason innings without giving up a single earned run, and he's available. Dennis Eckersley gave up a game winning home run to Kirk Gibson. Bruce Sutter had a 4.70 ERA in the only World Series he pitched. Goose Gossage twice gave up series deciding home runs. Lee Smith had an 8.44 ERA in the postseason.

 

It is a week's worth of games. Some of your players will do better than expected, some will do worse. If you don't trust Wagner to pitch in important situations, that's fine. He has given up an unusual number of home runs. But don't boo him like you could step on the mound and do better. That's just ignorance.

[devo 0]

I really wish you wouldn't say "you Mets fans" when it's only NYU and naiwf that are pursuing this retarded argument.

 

Damn, now I know how Cena's Writer must feel sometimes...

[NYU 0]

But don't boo him like you could step on the mound and do better.

 

Al, you are way too intelligent to resort to this argument.

 

"Yeah, let's see YOU do any better" is hardly a glowing defense to Wagner's ability. Closers blow games once in a while. Fine. But as I've said before, Wagner has shown several times now that he doesn't blow the inconsequential games -- he has a knack for blowing the important ones. What is the point of making him one of the highest paid closers in baseball if he can't get the saves that will keep this team strong? He ruined a potential sweep against the Yankees by blowing a 4-0 lead a few months ago. He ruined a tie game last night by giving up THREE runs before Randolph finally gave him the hook. He's unreliable in these situations and if you can't rely on your closer to close these important games, then how can you say you still possibly need him? For the $10.5 million/year he's being paid, the Mets can get another very good reliever and an average closer that will do the same job and provide the same stability Wagner has. He hasn't delivered on his contract since arriving in New York, despite what his save statistic seems to say.

 

I really wish you wouldn't say "you Mets fans" when it's only NYU and naiwf that are pursuing this retarded argument.

 

You should be thrilled you chose to be a fan of the same team I like.

Edited October 14, 2006 by NYU

[naiwf 0]

I try and give credit to all teams, but you Met fans are quickly proving yourselves to be the most ignorant, insufferable fools I've seen since the days of Anglesault. Boo Wagner because he lost a game? He's a player on your own fucking team.

 

Newsflash, relievers give up runs. Mariano Rivera spoiled everyone into thinking there was such a thing as an easy ninth inning in the postseason. You want a postseason reliever who doesn't? John Rocker pitched 20.7 postseason innings without giving up a single earned run, and he's available. Dennis Eckersley gave up a game winning home run to Kirk Gibson. Bruce Sutter had a 4.70 ERA in the only World Series he pitched. Goose Gossage twice gave up series deciding home runs. Lee Smith had an 8.44 ERA in the postseason.

 

It is a week's worth of games. Some of your players will do better than expected, some will do worse. If you don't trust Wagner to pitch in important situations, that's fine. He has given up an unusual number of home runs. But don't boo him like you could step on the mound and do better. That's just ignorance.

 

So what you're saying is that it's never right to boo anyone because we can't play better than they can? If that's the case then there's no point in cheering on a player either because why give credit to someone for doing something we can't either? If you can't be criticized by lowly plebians, you shouldn't be praised either. And it's highly ironic that a Philly fan is telling someone else not to boo a member of their own team, especially when Wagner got booed in Philly last year and Abreu was run out of town this year.