2007 Spring Training: The Thread

[KingPK 0]

In 2005, the Yanks and Red Sox tied for the division at the end of the year but the Yanks got the crown because they had one more head to head win over Boston. There's an example of "one win" that meant a hell of a lot.

 

Just because a few guys emerge per year that can close games, and because Boston happened to have one in '06, doesn't mean that lightening will strike twice in 2007.

 

Starting pitching is paramount to everything else in baseball. I'm not concerned about the closer; I'm concerned about the bridge between starter and closer. If the middle relief and setup guys stink, the closer won't even come into play.

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

I had an idea several years ago where if a manager were in a tight jam in the 6th, 7th, 8th, whatever the case may be, that they go to the closer/relief ace to deal with that situation and worry about the final inning when we get there.

 

Racking up saves to me is unimportant. But somebody's gotta be there to pitch the 9th. Might as well be somebody really good so you can rest assured that that person can effectively get 3 outs without making a manager sweat..too much.

[Guest Eagle Man]

I had an idea several years ago where if a manager were in a tight jam in the 6th, 7th, 8th, whatever the case may be, that they go to the closer/relief ace to deal with that situation and worry about the final inning when we get there.

Wow, you're a regular Bill James!

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

Almost as good as Lou Pineilla's idea to start a reliever, and then bring in his starter in the 2nd or 3rd inning.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I had an idea several years ago where if a manager were in a tight jam in the 6th, 7th, 8th, whatever the case may be, that they go to the closer/relief ace to deal with that situation and worry about the final inning when we get there.

 

You do realize that this is the backbone of the entire argument against having a proven closer, right?

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

Yes.

 

I think it was when Felix Heredia was continously used in late inning situations despite his apparent lack of talent.

[CanadianChris 0]

I had an idea several years ago where if a manager were in a tight jam in the 6th, 7th, 8th, whatever the case may be, that they go to the closer/relief ace to deal with that situation and worry about the final inning when we get there.

 

Racking up saves to me is unimportant. But somebody's gotta be there to pitch the 9th. Might as well be somebody really good so you can rest assured that that person can effectively get 3 outs without making a manager sweat..too much.

Welcome to 1980. This is the primary reason that Goose Gossage is not in the Hall of Fame yet.

[Guest]

Jack's theory is called, "having a good bullpen". Like, I'm glad the Dodgers have Broxton, Saito and Brazoshit. Shitty managers need them so they don't go pulling stuff like the Pedro incident. I wouldn't go pay the big bucks for a closer, but you need to have a guy you can count on. Develop your own bullpen arms so you don't have to go spend a lot getting one, like the Braves. I don't know how well that patchwork shit's gonna work.

[strummer 0]

http://www.pe.com/sports/breakout/stories/...01.40a8dc7.html

 

Had to post this. A hilarious article (for anyone with a clue about baseball) on Juan Pierre with some of the most asinine quotes I've ever read about baseball from Maury Wills and Rich Donnelly.

 

It's funny because when Pierre was playing and hitting well (03, 04) nobody was really talking about him and as soon as he starts to suck everyone is saying how great he is.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I had an idea several years ago where if a manager were in a tight jam in the 6th, 7th, 8th, whatever the case may be, that they go to the closer/relief ace to deal with that situation and worry about the final inning when we get there.

 

You do realize that this is the backbone of the entire argument against having a proven closer, right?

Not quite. There are really two different arguments at work. The need for a proven closer, and how you use that closer. James never argued that a team did not need a closer. He argued that closers were not used in an optimal fashion. The crux of James' arguments was that closers were better utilized in tie and one-run games than in leads of three runs or less.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I had an idea several years ago where if a manager were in a tight jam in the 6th, 7th, 8th, whatever the case may be, that they go to the closer/relief ace to deal with that situation and worry about the final inning when we get there.

 

You do realize that this is the backbone of the entire argument against having a proven closer, right?

Not quite. There are really two different arguments at work. The need for a proven closer, and how you use that closer. James never argued that a team did not need a closer. He argued that closers were not used in an optimal fashion. The crux of James' arguments was that closers were better utilized in tie and one-run games than in leads of three runs or less.

 

I totally understand this and I guess my argument was lost in the minutia of the thread. It stems back to the Papelbon comment that started the argument. If Paps was healthy and kept in a traditional "closer" role it would be a grave misuse of his talents. If they wanted to use him in the more flexible "relief ace" fashion, pitching two or three innings when needed to put out fires, I could live with that. The problem is no manager has the balls to get away from the current trend of save situations. The whole 2003 fiasco, which is now incorrectly remembered as the "closer by committee" was Theo's attempt to use the best relievers in the highest leveraged situations. Grady Little was not quite smart enough, or forward thinking enough to apply that philosophy properly.

 

Now, as I was saying, if the closer is going to be a ninth inning, three runs or less pitcher, there is no need to go get a proven one. Mike Timlin could handle that role. There's no need to spend ten million a year for a guy, or trade three elite prospects for a middle of the road talent like Chad Cordero. Relief pitchers are a volatile bunch. I like that they'd rather make one out of the options they have. Mariano Rivera, Joe Nathan and Billy Wagner are a freak bunch and it would be a misuse of resources to try and hunt down someone on that level.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The problem with the 2-3 inning approach is that pitchers got burnt out. Check out Bruce Sutter's splits.

 

1976

1st Half: 1.75

2nd Half: 3.42

 

1977

1st Half: 1.11

2nd Half: 2.08

 

1978

1st Half: 1.76

2nd Half: 5.10

 

1979

1st Half: 1.34

2nd Half: 3.21

 

That 1978 split prompted manager Herman Franks to use Bruce Sutter sparingly in seventh inning situations. Obviously a pitcher of Mariano Rivera's quality is better used for multiple innings. The problem is that observers make the assumption that a pitcher will retain the same quality whether he pitches one inning or several. The evolution of relief pitching has seemingly dictated that it is easier to get quality by having pitchers work shorter outings, and using more of them. That sounds counter-intuitive, but a quick check shows the median ERA was a third of a run lower among relievers than starters.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I can do this because I'm a mod. You all need to support me in the SmartMarks poster tournament. Show your appreciation for the Sports folder!

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I can do this because I'm a mod. You all need to support me in the SmartMarks poster tournament. Show your appreciation for the Sports folder!

 

C'mon Al. The reason I did vote for you was because you don't stump for stupid shit like TSM's best poster.

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

Rivera isn't built to go more than 2 innings, and at his advancing age, its now more 1 only.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Here is a tournament we can all support!

 

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/fa...ker_madness.jsp

[Vern Gagne 0]

Ray Liotta is my favorite.

 

I think Boof's got enough major league experience that he doesn't belong in the tourney.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Just saw Boodle Clark... that name wins it for me hands down. Solely on the first name obviously.

[treble 0]

Chip Cannon should be on there.

[CanadianChris 0]

As if there weren't enough question marks in the Jays rotation...

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2007/n...tory?id=2802353

 

Jays pitcher Chacin arrested, charged with DUI

Associated Press

 

TAMPA, Fla. -- Toronto Blue Jays pitcher Gustavo Chacin was arrested and charged with driving under the influence.

 

Chacin was stopped by Tampa police early Friday morning, according to a copy of the charge report posted on the Hillsborough County sheriff's Web site.

 

The 26-year-old Chacin was booked for a misdemeanor and released from jail on $500 bond.

 

Police reports showed Chacin registered a blood-alcohol content of .150 and .152 in two consecutive readings. The state limit is .08.

 

"It's a serious mistake and we all make mistakes," manager John Gibbons said. "The justice system gets your attention pretty good these days, and they should."

 

The left-hander went 9-4 last season with a 5.05 ERA, but missed more than two months with elbow problems. Chacin is 23-14 in 53 career outings.

 

"Obviously he has had something happen and he is entitled to due process and whatever happens we just have to abide by the law," general manager J.P. Ricciardi said. "He made a mistake and we want to work with him, not against him."

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

On the closers topic for a second since I missed it..It doesnt take a hell of a lot to become a proven Closer these days..BJ Ryan was the Os closer for one whole season (did a fantastic job too I might add) and got a huge contract from the Blue Jays. Chris Ray steps in first year closer after Ryan and has a very good year (not as good as BJ Ryan had the prev year, but still decent) and now hes probably considered a proven closer enough to know he has the job before ST even started.

 

I think the front end of the bullpen is way more important than the closer. If you're consistantly going to have to go to the pen in the 7th inning, if those guys can't hold the lead then having a good closer is pointless. Which was how last year went for the Orioles. They knew if they could get it to Ray in the 9th with a lead they'd have a shot but getting there with the lead was the challenge.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

David Wells was diagnosed with type 2 diabtetes.

[Guest Eagle Man]

Now he'll never get into the Hall of Fame!

[CanadianChris 0]

Not to sound mean or anything, but that doesn't really surprise me. He's always seemed to be a prime candidate for it. I hope he can stay healthy, though.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Are we ready to do predictions for the year?

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

I Saw this and got all excited for next year then I read the date..

 

The Baltimore Orioles can't wait to make a play for Texas Rangers' first baseman Mark Teixeira, who could become a free agent after the 2008 season.

 

But Teixeira, a native of Severna Park, Md., will have another option if he wishes to play close to home – the Washington Nationals, who open their new ballpark in '08 and could score a public-relations coup by trumping the Orioles.

 

Source: FOXSports.com

 

wow..crankin the rumor mill up 2 years early on that. Lets get through 2007 and 2008 first!

[Guest Queen Leelee]

Heh. You poor Oriole fans must be desperate...

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

Heh. You poor Oriole fans must be desperate...

 

Considering 2008 will probably be year #11 in a row losing...and that new park is gonna kill Os attendence even more..

 

Hopefully at least PA will be 2 years closer to being in a hole in the ground if not already at that point.

[Guest Eagle Man]

For a second I thought you meant Pennsylvania, and I was like, "what good will THAT do the Orioles?" I agree, though, Angelos has gotta go. He's not Bill Wirtz, but he's in the top five.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

So Ozzie plans to bat Erstad second? I wonder if Ozzie understands that you have to score runs to win games.