What If...?

[World's Worst Man 0]

What if that piece of shit Harold Ballard never got control of the Leafs, which dragged them down into a pit of consistently horrible teams? While they haven't been as awful since then, the reason they're unsuccessful is still poor ownership. Maybe someone competent would have gotten control of the team back in the 70's and would have kept it in good hands until this very day.

[treble 0]

It was in game 6, but yeah. I'd like to say that the Leafs could have beaten the Habs (my uncle, who hates the Leafs more than anyone else in my family, says that they probably could have since the Habs were kind of flukey that year with all the OT wins), but they would have been coming off 3 long series, one of them taking them to the other side of the continent a few times. I'd just like to be able to say I've seen the Leafs play in the Finals at least once in my life at this point.

[OldSchoolWrestling 0]

Without a strike in 1994? Let me come up with five educated guesses.

 

1. Tony Gwynn does not hit .400. He was in a stretch where he hit .372 over a three-year period, which is insane. It's not .400 though, and Gwynn would have needed to hit BETTER than he was doing in his career year average wise to reach that mark. Note that George Brett hit .390 in the year where he missed 45 games (1980). There are many out-of-context percentage statistics that year, and that is a direct result of not having a full season to level the field.

 

Gwynn only hit .394 that year. Still too high based on the short season, but not the sacred .400.

I'm answering the question of "would he have done it?" There's a bit of an idea that Gwynn lost the opportunity to chase .400 because of the strike.

 

Gwynn would have hit .400, by the way, if he collected just four more hits.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Now that you say 4 more hits, I recall how close he really was.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Heh, the Leafs should have made the finals back in 2002, but they had all sorts of injuries, including Sundin, who came back during the Carolina series and really didn't look ready to play. They had a better team than Carolina for certain, and it would have been Toronto vs. Detroit in the finals.

[treble 0]

Those playoffs sucked. The Hurricanes fucked us out of a Montreal/Toronto conference finals and then a Toronto/Detroit finals.

[Maztinho 0]

For the Utah Jazz.

 

Dominique Wilkins not wanting so much money that it would have bankrupted the team and forcing a trade. A couple years later they still would have picked up sleepers Stockton and Malone and you'd have a front line of Nique, Malone and Eaton with Stockton picking your poison for you for a better part of a decade.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

It was in game 6, but yeah. I'd like to say that the Leafs could have beaten the Habs (my uncle, who hates the Leafs more than anyone else in my family, says that they probably could have since the Habs were kind of flukey that year with all the OT wins), but they would have been coming off 3 long series, one of them taking them to the other side of the continent a few times. I'd just like to be able to say I've seen the Leafs play in the Finals at least once in my life at this point.

 

Gimme a quick history lesson? I thought Wendel's hat trick in game 6 kept the series alive for the Leafs, and then Gretz scored the winner in OT in Game 7, when he should have been in the penalty box. If I'm wrong, which game did he call "The best I've ever played"?

 

Baron and I have been arguing over this one for about, oh, as long as we've known each other. The Habs would have got slaughtered. Compare Roy's stats to Potvin's in the regular season, and it's not even close.

[vivalaultra 0]

The Astros had started the 8th inning of Game 5 of the 1980 NLCS with Joe Sambito instead of waiting for Nolan Ryan to give up 3 hits and a walk to force in a run and load the bases with no outs with the Astros up by 3?

 

I'll bite. It is worth pointing out that the Phillies were not hitting Nolan Ryan particularly hard. Boone and Greg Gross's singles were infield hits. Rose worked the walk on a full count. When you look at the innings before that, Nolan Ryan had faced the minimum 15 batters in the last five innings, giving up three hits, all singles. Those runners were erased via two double plays and a caught stealing. There was no reason on earth to pull Ryan out before the inning started, except for clairvoyant visions into the future. And the Phillies hit the succeeding relievers harder.

 

That game more than anything is baseball's equivalent of "shit happens," nothing more.

 

Yeah, in retrospect it's easy to say that Vidron should've either started the inning with Sambito or Dave Smith, but by all accounts Ryan was in a rocking chair until Boone got the 2nd hit of the inning to put runners at 1st and 2nd w/ no outs. Still, game 5 of the NLCS, winner goes to the World Series, once Boone gets on, I don't understand how Vidron didn't immediately turn the game over to, arguably, the best relief tandem in baseball (Sambito and Smith). I can understand sticking with your starter (especially if your starter is Nolan Ryan), but still...

 

I could've done the same thing about Game 6 of the 1986 NLCS. What if Dave Smith would've started the 9th instead of leaving Bob Knepper in to give up 2 runs and a man on 2nd? Mike Scott would've come back for Game 7, shut the Mets down like he did in Games 1 and 4...yeah. But, hindsight's 20/20 and all that.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

For the golfers here, although it's a bit of a stretch: What if Jack Nicklaus had won the Masters in '98? He was 58 at the time, and wound up tied for sixth, four back of eventual winner Mark O'Meara. He was two back of the lead making the turn.

 

This thread is a great topic, by the way.

[Brett Favre 0]

I forgot exactly how it went, but I think the Blazers or Bulls offered the 2nd or 3rd pick respectively to the Rockets for Ralph Sampson and the Rockets declined. So what if Jordan and Hakeem were on the same team (I think it was Portland who made the offer).

I read a couple months ago that the Sixers offered the Bulls Julius Erving for the #3.

 

Yeah I saw that too. Jordan in Philly.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

At the risk of seeming too much like a homer: What if Horry misses that three at the buzzer in Game 4 of the 2002 WCF?

[treble 0]

It was in game 6, but yeah. I'd like to say that the Leafs could have beaten the Habs (my uncle, who hates the Leafs more than anyone else in my family, says that they probably could have since the Habs were kind of flukey that year with all the OT wins), but they would have been coming off 3 long series, one of them taking them to the other side of the continent a few times. I'd just like to be able to say I've seen the Leafs play in the Finals at least once in my life at this point.

 

Gimme a quick history lesson? I thought Wendel's hat trick in game 6 kept the series alive for the Leafs, and then Gretz scored the winner in OT in Game 7, when he should have been in the penalty box. If I'm wrong, which game did he call "The best I've ever played"?

 

Baron and I have been arguing over this one for about, oh, as long as we've known each other. The Habs would have got slaughtered. Compare Roy's stats to Potvin's in the regular season, and it's not even close.

The Leafs had a 3-2 series lead when Gretzky scored in OT in game 6 when he should have been in the box. He scored a hat trick in game 7 (that one goal that went off of Dave Ellett's leg still kills me whenever I see it). Game 7 was what he called his best game.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Yeah, in retrospect it's easy to say that Vidron should've either started the inning with Sambito or Dave Smith, but by all accounts Ryan was in a rocking chair until Boone got the 2nd hit of the inning to put runners at 1st and 2nd w/ no outs. Still, game 5 of the NLCS, winner goes to the World Series, once Boone gets on, I don't understand how Vidron didn't immediately turn the game over to, arguably, the best relief tandem in baseball (Sambito and Smith). I can understand sticking with your starter (especially if your starter is Nolan Ryan), but still...

 

Give me some time, I'll cover the inning in more detail.

[Guest Smues]

Dodgers

 

Darren Dreifort. Enough said.

 

 

You'd not overpay Dreifort as opposed to not trading away Pedro Martinez for Delino Deshields?

[Brett Favre 0]

At the risk of seeming too much like a homer: What if Horry misses that three at the buzzer in Game 4 of the 2002 WCF?

 

Actually, what if they had the replay at the buzzer rule in place by then, and they had waived off Samaki Walker's half court 3 that ended up deciding the game with Horry's 3?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Yeah, in retrospect it's easy to say that Vidron should've either started the inning with Sambito or Dave Smith, but by all accounts Ryan was in a rocking chair until Boone got the 2nd hit of the inning to put runners at 1st and 2nd w/ no outs. Still, game 5 of the NLCS, winner goes to the World Series, once Boone gets on, I don't understand how Vidron didn't immediately turn the game over to, arguably, the best relief tandem in baseball (Sambito and Smith). I can understand sticking with your starter (especially if your starter is Nolan Ryan), but still...

 

I think this will shed some light on the subject. I watched the inning off dvd, using the time stamps. There are no breaks in the action. This comes from the Phillies' broadcast with Harry Kalas and Richie Ashburn announcing. The video feed is the same as the ABC national broadcast.

 

2:13:57

 

-Rafael Landestoy comes in on defense at second, Dave Bergman comes in at third. Harry Kalas mentions Nolan Ryan's "phenominal" record with a lead after eight.

 

Ball Low

Called Strike

Bowa singles, line drive above the shortstop into center field

 

2:15:30

Harry Kalas: "Quickly that Houston bullpen is gonna jump into activity."

Richie Ashburn: "Joe Sambito and Dave Smith probably."

Kalas: "Looks like Ken Forsch along with Sambito."

 

2:15:53

Bob Boone singles, ground ball off the glove of Nolan Ryan. Bowa to 2nd.

 

Shot of Sambito and Forsch warming up

 

2:16:46

Greg Gross singles, bunt grounder to Nolan Ryan about eight field right of the foul line. Bases loaded.

 

Catcher Alan Ashby meets with Ryan on mound.

 

2:17:50

Fouled off

Ball High

Ball High

Fouled Off

Ball Low in dirt, Rose checks his swing

Fouled off (Clocked at 99 mph)

Ball Outside

Rose walks, run scores, bases still loaded

 

2:20:43

Bill Virdon comes out to relieve Ryan

 

Two and a half minutes between Bowa's single and Ryan's first pitch to Pete Rose. Quite simply, the Phillies got their second and third hits off Ryan with one pitch and the Astros could not have gotten their relievers warmed up in time if they wanted to.

[Mik 0]

What if the Marlins didn't have a piece of shit owner?

 

Has anyone given any thought lately to the lineup they would be fielding if they had a $90M payroll?

 

It's pretty sickening to think about, so I try not to.

[vivalaultra 0]

Hey Al, thanks for that. I haven't ever gotten the chance to see the inning in realtime; I've only seen highlights and read about it. I knew that the inning was basically just a series of soft hits and bad luck (minus Bowa's leadoff single). I didn't know if Vidron had Sambito hot in the bullpen at the start of the inning, so hearing that he didn't start warming up until after the leadoff single, and that it went from nobody on, nobody out to bases loaded no outs in the span of about a minute and a half, makes it easier to understand why Vidron stuck with Ryan so long; it was a combination of it being Nolan freakin' Ryan on the mound and having no relievers hot. Still, in retrospect, it's fun (and frustrating) second guessing the manager and speculating on what could've been.

[CanadianChris 0]

What if the LCS weren't lengthened to 7 games in 1985? The Blue Jays blew a 3-1 lead to an aging Royals team that year. If they win there, they probably could have won 4 or 5 championships with that team instead of making a habit of coming up short for the next 6 years.

[Dandy 0]

Through 2000, Griffey had hit 439 home runs; 1,270 RBI's; and 1,883 hits. Divided by those 12 seasons (counting the strike as a full season), he averaged 37 homers, 106 RBI, and 157 hits.

 

Keeping up his average production over the next 6 years, he would be at the following stats entering this season:

661 homers, 1,906 RBI, and 2,825 hits.

 

Here is a look at it from another way. Griffey played in 81% of the games (1,580/1,894) from his debut with Seattle in 1989 to 2000 with the Reds. He missed the majority of those games in 1995 when he broke his wrist, and his rookie year when he also had an injury later in the season.

 

His average per game breaks down as follows:

0.2778 homers/game played

0.8038 RBI/game played

1.192 hits/game played

 

If he had played in 81% of the games over the next 6 years (787/972 games), his stats would be the following entering this season:

 

656 homers, 1,903 RBI, and 2,821 hits.

 

I think it is safe to say he would have been right around 660 homers, 1,900 RBI, and over 2,800 hits. His stats in those categories so far this year are 22, 57, 81. At the start of next year, he would have been closing in on 700 homers, 2,000 RBI, and 3,000 hits.

[MFer 0]

Couple of fairly recent NFL scenarios...

 

What if Trent Green had not gotten hurt in '99?

 

What if Bledsoe hadn't gotten hurt in '01 or the Pats had lost the tuck rule game?

 

Certainly had those situations been different, the careers of several high-profile players would've been altered (in addition to the obvious ones: Warner, Brady etc...)

[Dandy 0]

What if Len Bias didn't die after the draft?

[Red Baron 0]

WWM:

 

If it wasn't for Ballard, the Leafs would have made a good challenge for Montreal, Boston and Phili in the 70's. They had a solid team that could have made some upsets. They might have made it to the Finals in the mid 70's, but thats about it. Nothing was going to stop the dynasty of Montreal that time.

 

As for the 80's...well they might have not been in the Norris division, which was the weakest division at the time, but they would have to compete Montreal, Boston, Phili, Rangers and Islanders. In the Norris division they would have won the divison no problem, but would get spanked against Calgary and Edmonton.

[Vern Gagne 0]

What if Atlanta drafts Todd Van Poppel instead of Chipper Jones? Does Van Poppel suffer from the same arm problems pitching in the Braves organization?

 

What if Jack Clark and Terry Pendelton didn't miss the 1987 World Series?

 

What if Brien Taylor doesn't get into a fight at a bar?

[World's Worst Man 0]

For the golfers here, although it's a bit of a stretch: What if Jack Nicklaus had won the Masters in '98? He was 58 at the time, and wound up tied for sixth, four back of eventual winner Mark O'Meara. He was two back of the lead making the turn.

 

Greatest sports performance of all time? A senior tour eligible player winning a real major would be impressive enough, but two years shy of 60 when guys that old can't even really compete on the senior tour? Crazy.

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

What if the former owner (Bruce McNall) of the Kings had enough money and wasn't a felon? He wouldn't have need the expansion fee for the Ducks.

What if Gretzky never went to the Kings? Hockey in So Cal would have been set back a lot. The Kings wouldn't have made it to the Finals in 93.

What if Lemieux was healthy his entire career? He would have been #2 or #3 in all time point totals.

What if Bettman wasn't hired? I assume everything would be better, but I think the owners are corrupt and stupid in general.

[Dandy 0]

What if Ted Williams had not lost years of play to the military?

[Guest]

Dodgers

 

Darren Dreifort. Enough said.

 

 

You'd not overpay Dreifort as opposed to not trading away Pedro Martinez for Delino Deshields?

Of course the Pedro trade is first priority. I was speaking in recent terms.

 

However, the Pedro trade wasn't bad at the time. Look at Delino's stats before he came to the Dodgers. Hindsight is everything.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/deshide01.shtml

[Dandy 0]

His stats weren't THAT impressive. His OBP was below where it should have been, he struck out a lot, and could have walked more. His 40-50 steals look impressive now because steals are rarer these days, but he should have stolen more bases. Had he been on base more, his steals and runs would have been better and then I would agree with you.

[Richard 0]

What if the Colts win SB III? Assuming the game wasn't fixed of course.