A couple of thoughts on Mania that I would like to get some input on

[Guest the_last_rites]

This is part of my reliving my WWE fanboi days.

 

lets put the Iron Man Match at WM XII under the spotlight shall we? As you all must be knowing Meltzer gave the match a ****1/4 rating which to me is a tad less than what the match deserved. Now my question is, had the match ended at a draw how would it have affected the rating for that match from a 'smart' POV. Now I know the sudden death stip helped the whole "boyhood dream" schtick and probably added to the match, but say had the match ended at the 60 min mark with a draw, what would have been the outlook on that match. I for one certainly believe it would have helped the credibility of both the men as well as have added to the aura of the match. So I personally believe that match would have had a higher rating if it hadnt been for the OT.

 

2nd of all

 

WM XIX and WM XVII. Both were amazing Manias. In fact I'd go so far as to say they were the 2 best Manias ever. My question is even though quality of matches were higher in XIX(To be fair both had almost the same number of ****+ and ***+ matches IIRC) what exactly makes XVII a better Mania than XIX according to popular opinion around the internet(s) ? I understand that 17 had the better buyrate but that doesnt say the entire story does it. So to further my doubts. Was it because the storylines were more compelling? Was it the strong undercard in XVII or was it something else altogether?

 

Waiting for some smarky inputs

 

[mysterious_w 0]

Broadway the biggest match of the year? That has so many problems with it I'm not even gonna bother.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

If by biggest you mean in terms of importance/magnitude/hype, you can absolutely make that argument.

[cabbageboy 0]

WM XIX is a flat out misfire of a show with some lousy booking. Jericho/Michaels is a pretty good match, but I didn't feel it was overly special (just what these guys would do any other night). And the wrong guy went over of course. Austin/Rock was played out and reheated, mostly a squash as well. Lesnar/Angle had Brock fucking up the biggest spot and finish to the main event of WM. It's not a bad PPV but it's one of those "coulda been way better" WMs. Oh, and Booker/HHH has always left a sour taste after the tastleless angle setting it up.

 

 

[AntiLeaf33 0]

WrestleMania X-Seven is still my favorite Mania. It pretty much had everything you look for in a WWE PPV. It had a great technical match (Benoit/Angle), had a fun spot fest (TLC), great curtain jerker (Jericho/Regal) and a man even title change which had the "hometown hero" win, and it still gave us a curveball ending at the end of the PPV with Austin's heel turn and aligning with Vince.

 

WrestleMania XIX had a lot of potential great moments, but most were either booked poorly (Jericho/Michaels and HHH/Booker) or just plain fucked up (Brock's SSP)

[Guest the_last_rites]

WrestleMania X-Seven is still my favorite Mania. It pretty much had everything you look for in a WWE PPV. It had a great technical match (Benoit/Angle), had a fun spot fest (TLC), great curtain jerker (Jericho/Regal) and a man even title change which had the "hometown hero" win, and it still gave us a curveball ending at the end of the PPV with Austin's heel turn and aligning with Vince.

 

WrestleMania XIX had a lot of potential great moments, but most were either booked poorly (Jericho/Michaels and HHH/Booker) or just plain fucked up (Brock's SSP)

 

Speaking of WM X7. Dont forget the Taker/HHH match. That was one match that was way better than it had any right to be. Damn I just continue to love Taker as the years wear on.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I've critiqued the Iron Man match on here before, so I'll just repost what I first wrote:

 

The first boos come at just shy of seven minutes into the math.

 

Lawler told too many jokes. While a supposedly serious wrestling match was going on, this little pervert was cracking jokes about Stu, Helen and Bret Hart

 

Bret played subtle heel through the match, tending to hit Shawn right at the break, while Shawn played total babyface.

 

Lawler would kill moves dead. When Shawn headscissored Bret through the ropes to the floor where Bret landed in a heap, Lawler totally blew the move off, saying it didn’t hurt Bret at all, and it only frustrated him. Even when they replayed the move, Lawler tried his best to kill the move, not only saying it didn’t hurt Bret at all, but that all of these “high flying” moves don’t really hurt much anyway.

 

Shawn worked on Bret’s left shoulder during the middle portion of the match, and at one point you can hear him ask Bret, “stay on the arm ?”, and what did it lead to ? Nothing. Oh, wait, I take that back. It led to Shawn putting a cross armbreaker on the wrong arm, which he immediately let go of, before applying the move to the arm he actually had been working on.

 

There was a lot of work done on arms and limbs during the match that led nowhere.

 

There were a few “Let’s go Bret”, chants here and there, but no such chants for Shawn.

 

There was a ref bump half way through, but it didn’t lead to anything and served no purpose whatsoever.

 

Around this time, Bret hits a piledriver on Shawn, which Lawler naturally pushes like hell as a fall winner, but Shawn kicks out, which is when the booing gets really loud.

 

For a 60 minute Iron Man match, there were very few pinfall or submission attempts made.

 

The whole match was wrestled like a standard match that was going to a 60 minute draw, rather than in Iron Man match that was going 60 minutes, and it showed glaringly. Neither man really went for any pinfalls or submissions nor did they show anything in terms of struggling when it came to fighting for decisions.

 

Both men were guilty of some really sloppy work, where they would hit a big move, and instead of going for a pin, where the other guy was flat on his back, they’d instead go to a rest hold or go right into the next high spot.

 

Shawn took a really big bump over the top rope, like his one against Jeff Jarrett at IYH 2, and Bret spent a long portion of the match working over both the back and Shawn’s legs as well. This was all well done stuff actually. All of which Shawn promptly no-sold when it came time to make his comeback. No limping, no grimacing, not even a squeal of pain. It was as if the last 15 minutes had never happened.

 

About the 45 minute mark it really started to drag, which wasn’t helped by the aforementioned fact that the match wasn’t wrestled with any real intensity or fire, and both men seemed to be going through the motions of wrestling for 60 minutes as if it was an exhibition. You never got the impression that these two men were fighting over any issue of importance, but rather they were just going out there and doing an exhibition of moves and holds with none of it really meaning anything.

 

All in all, the work itself was ****, but the structure of the match, and the fact that none of the work really led to anything, drags the match as a whole down to **1/2

 

The thread in question is What are your thoughts on the Bret/HBK Iron Man? if you want to reference the discussion that was going on at the time.

 

[edgehead69 0]

This is part of my reliving my WWE fanboi days.

 

lets put the Iron Man Match at WM XII under the spotlight shall we? As you all must be knowing Meltzer gave the match a ****1/4 rating which to me is a tad less than what the match deserved. Now my question is, had the match ended at a draw how would it have affected the rating for that match from a 'smart' POV. Now I know the sudden death stip helped the whole "boyhood dream" schtick and probably added to the match, but say had the match ended at the 60 min mark with a draw, what would have been the outlook on that match. I for one certainly believe it would have helped the credibility of both the men as well as have added to the aura of the match. So I personally believe that match would have had a higher rating if it hadnt been for the OT.

 

2nd of all

 

WM XIX and WM XVII. Both were amazing Manias. In fact I'd go so far as to say they were the 2 best Manias ever. My question is even though quality of matches were higher in XIX(To be fair both had almost the same number of ****+ and ***+ matches IIRC) what exactly makes XVII a better Mania than XIX according to popular opinion around the internet(s) ? I understand that 17 had the better buyrate but that doesnt say the entire story does it. So to further my doubts. Was it because the storylines were more compelling? Was it the strong undercard in XVII or was it something else altogether?

 

Waiting for some smarky inputs

 

With the Iron Man... I agree if HBK had won with 1 second on the clock that could've been bigger than Andre/Hogan.

 

XIX is my fave mania followed by 21,18,17. XII had plenty of hype but some matches felt really bleh. like the 6 man tag and the womens title match. XII had great matches in Austin/Rock, TLC, Jericho/Regal, benoit/Angle. I didnt like Taker/HHH as much because they should have just stayed in the ring and have a barn burner. The rest of the card was merely meh....IMO.

 

XIX however suffered from only one truly bad match (Handicap Match), That wrestlemania flowed really well with the triple threats being great and the cruiserweight championship being entertainable (I mean how could they do Wrestlemania without Matt Hardy?) I loved the Last 5 matches of that card. HBK/Jericho was simply outstanding on all levels. Booker/HHH was really exciting to watch and the commentating is funny as hell. I just wish Booker won....

The Street Fight was classic WWE style and it was fun to watch and the story was really something....(I love watching the promo for that match). Austin/Rock III is one of my fav matches all time. The magnitude, the hype, and the fact it was the end to probably the greatest rivalry ever in the WWE. Lest not forget Austins last match. I have an xtremly soft spot for that match. Angle vs Brock was everything and then some. Sure Summerslam 2003 and the iron man on smackdown surpass match but damn..... its hard to get any better then this Wrestlemania main event. Sure Brock screwed up the SSP, but the wrestling was phenominal and i can watch it over and over and never get bored.

 

17 did have a bigger hype input. 19 had multiple main events and the hype was strongly divided. 17 was probably better in terms of buyrates and such; plus there wasnt 2 brands. 19 IMO had more compelling storylines but at 2001... WWE was riding high andwas so popular they could do no wrong.... Although look at the crap that was WM 15 and 16.

[Jingus 0]

WM XIX and WM XVII. Both were amazing Manias. In fact I'd go so far as to say they were the 2 best Manias ever. My question is even though quality of matches were higher in XIX(To be fair both had almost the same number of ****+ and ***+ matches IIRC) what exactly makes XVII a better Mania than XIX according to popular opinion around the internet(s) ?

XIX is my fave mania followed by 21,18,17. XII had plenty of hype but some matches felt really bleh. like the 6 man tag and the womens title match. XII had great matches in Austin/Rock, TLC, Jericho/Regal, benoit/Angle. I didnt like Taker/HHH as much because they should have just stayed in the ring and have a barn burner. The rest of the card was merely meh....IMO.

 

XIX however suffered from only one truly bad match (Handicap Match), That wrestlemania flowed really well with the triple threats being great and the cruiserweight championship being entertainable (I mean how could they do Wrestlemania without Matt Hardy?) I loved the Last 5 matches of that card. HBK/Jericho was simply outstanding on all levels. Booker/HHH was really exciting to watch and the commentating is funny as hell. I just wish Booker won....

The Street Fight was classic WWE style and it was fun to watch and the story was really something....(I love watching the promo for that match). Austin/Rock III is one of my fav matches all time. The magnitude, the hype, and the fact it was the end to probably the greatest rivalry ever in the WWE. Lest not forget Austins last match. I have an xtremly soft spot for that match. Angle vs Brock was everything and then some. Sure Summerslam 2003 and the iron man on smackdown surpass match but damn..... its hard to get any better then this Wrestlemania main event. Sure Brock screwed up the SSP, but the wrestling was phenominal and i can watch it over and over and never get bored.

 

17 did have a bigger hype input. 19 had multiple main events and the hype was strongly divided. 17 was probably better in terms of buyrates and such; plus there wasnt 2 brands. 19 IMO had more compelling storylines but at 2001... WWE was riding high andwas so popular they could do no wrong.... Although look at the crap that was WM 15 and 16.

17 was treated like more of an old-school Bigtime Wrestlemania, held in a gigantic stadium and all. Except for Vince/Hogan and HBK/Jericho, to me 19 just felt like another PPV. Yeah, Rock/Austin was good, but not nearly as good at at 17. Yeah, Angle/Brock was good, but just kinda generic WWE Main Event good, not blow-away "holy shit" good like the main event of 17 (or 20, at the time). And... Booker/HHH "really exciting"? It was slow, plodding, and completely buried Booker as such a non-entity that it took his career three years to recover.

 

To me, TLC 2, Benoit-Angle, Austin-Rock, and the absolute 24K gold that was the Gimmick Battle Royal were all better than anything 19 had to offer.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What do you think buried Booker more? Coming out on the losing end of a mostly racial-orientated storyline, or Hunter waiting almost thirty seconds to pin him after hitting the pedigree?

[Jingus 0]

Both in different ways. Firstly, Helmsley basically called him a dumb incompetent nickel/nugget/knicker/ya get it, then proved himself right by completely squashing the dude. Hell, 30 seconds seems short, it felt like it took half an hour for HHH to crawl over and finally cover Booker at the end.

 

Wrestlemania XIX: it took three F-5s for Brock to beat Angle... it took three legdrops for Hogan to beat Vince... it took three rock bottoms for Rock to beat Austin... but bah gawd it only took ONE pedigree to completely knock Booker the fuck out.