Indy wrestlers need to tone it down a notch

[Scroby 0]

A stiff forearm (if not hit right) to the side of a face can FUCK someone up. It can pop out a few teeth, cause the guy whose getting hit to bite his tounge, pop a jaw out, brusie the face. A forearm can honestly hurt someone.

 

Shots to the back and chest can still hurt someone. The human body can only take so much punishment, yes the back and chest can take a lot of those stiff shots, but they still hurt like hell and they can hurt someone as well. The body is not indestrucable.

[J.T. 0]

Tigeraid: If you are light, its OK to miss. If you are Morishima, its not. Thats the bottom line, your arguing an isolated point while ignoring the major issue its attached to. Of course all Bix list were miss and botches, no one purposly punches someone in the eye socket or whatever. But there is a reason Bret Hart hurt no one in his carrer. He was not perfect in accuracy, but it didnt matter. A miss was a flesh wound, a headache. It was not a rubtured orbitial bone.

 

And if you cant get that, than this arguement is useless and you will never get it.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Concussions are a common thing in pro wrestling. I was training for three months and got two in one night.

You didn't tuck your chin, did you?

 

Botched a back bump while taking a clothesline that was a lot stiffer than I thought it was going to be and landed on the top of my head, then I took a crossbody from someone who weighed about 250-260 (I was about 180-190 at the time) and they overshot it/I tried to make it look good and ended up hitting the back of my head on the way down. I also got dropped on the back of my head while shooting in the ring. These three events lead to two concussions in one night.

[Bix 0]

And why didn't you stop after the first one?

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

It was time to Man Up.

[theintensifier 0]

Time to man up. Then it's time to not remember maning up. Then it's time to not remember much of anything.

[EricMM 0]

@ HSJ.

 

Yeah, that brain damage is going to earn you all kinds of respect...

[Bix 0]

It was time to Man Up.

I pray that was sarcasm.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

I didn't *really* start feeling anything until after the third time. And out of the three months I was training, that was the only times I got hurt. You can work through a concussion and thats what these guys do when it happens. They don't get hurt everytime they have a match, but hey, shit happens.

[Scroby 0]

You really don't realize you have a concussion until you feel sleepy anyways.

[Bix 0]

I didn't *really* start feeling anything until after the third time. And out of the three months I was training, that was the only times I got hurt. You can work through a concussion and thats what these guys do when it happens. They don't get hurt everytime they have a match, but hey, shit happens.

http://www.concussioncrisis.com/

[Jingus 0]

You can work through a concussion, but Bret Hart would advise you not to.

 

That is a sad thing about training class, depending on the instructor, sometimes they get downright sadistic in terms of the amount of damage they force the trainees to endure. I've heard many a horror story like HSJ's where some kid gets hurt and the trainer makes them continue. After all, it's not like some n00b has either the experience or the technical knowledge to realize what the difference is between regular pain and something much more serious.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

You can work through a concussion, but Bret Hart would advise you not to.

 

That is a sad thing about training class, depending on the instructor, sometimes they get downright sadistic in terms of the amount of damage they force the trainees to endure. I've heard many a horror story like HSJ's where some kid gets hurt and the trainer makes them continue. After all, it's not like some n00b has either the experience or the technical knowledge to realize what the difference is between regular pain and something much more serious.

 

Which is why we call The Great Khali a killer, when in reality, it was the other guys fault.

[Jingus 0]

No, it was the trainer's fault. He had a green-as-grass 7'4" behemoth in there trying out moves he had no business doing, on first-week rookies who had no business taking them. And don't forget how after Ong hit his head the first time and felt sick, they told him "man up" and get back in there.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

I thought Ong was hurt before that day, knew he was hurt but underestimated it and then went to train with Khali.

 

I mean, if it was me and I knew I was hurt, I wouldn't have gotten in the ring. They didn't "force" him into the ring. And the fact that he was training with Khali didn't help matters. You can really point a finger at everyone involved, but in my opinion, most of it has to go to Ong.

[Jingus 0]

That's the first time I ever heard about any supposed preexisting injury with Ong. Even so, it's still the trainer's fault that he has two green rookies, one of them taller than anyone on the NBA roster and the other one on his first week of training, working together like that. Especially telling him to get back in there after hitting his head the first time, supposedly Ong didn't feel like it, but the drill instructor kept yelling at him until he did.

[Bix 0]

I believe Ong had suffered his first (known) concussion the previous week and was trying to avoid much activity as possible, but the trainer (it was Massaro hands-on and Morgan "supervising" in another room, right?) badgered him into getting in the ring. The second concussion came from a Khali tree slam. Ong was vomiting and was again badgered into getting back in the ring. This is where he got the fatal injury.

 

Letting Ong work at all on a concussion, especially right after the 2nd one where he was showing symptoms immediately, was insane, evil, and negligent.

[Jingus 0]

That's one problem with the various Ong stories: the different versions don't match up. Like, what was the specific move that killed him? I've heard tree slam, flapjack, spinebuster, dominator, backdrop, and body slam.

 

And if it WAS the tree slam, jesus, don't you think Khali should've maybe told the office that him using that as his finisher just might be a bad idea?

[Bix 0]

I've never heard flapjack, Dominator, backdrop, or bodyslam. The worst I heard was waterwheel drop. From the descriptions given in the trial/news coverage, it was something along the lines of a spinebuster, tree slam, or MAYBE waterwheel drop (which would be the riskiest, I'd guess).

[Jingus 0]

Waterwheel drop, what's that?

 

The law firm that filed the wrongful death suit says it was a flapjack. Also, this fansite claims it was a flapjack, but then further muddles the issue by describing a move that not only definitely isn't a flapjack, but isn't a real wrestling move at all.

[Bix 0]

Waterwheel drop = Hollycaust.

 

Not sure why I thought the official stuff was closer to spinebuster, but from a practical standpoint, a flapjack makes no sense, as I can't see Khali being able to bend over enough to even try it.

 

As described on the Khali fan site, it seems like it was intended as halfway between a back body drop and a flapjack, similar to what Benoit seemingly tried to do to Sabu, or maybe the nameless "toss dude in the air by his chest and let him fall on his face and chest" spot that often leads to huricanrana counters. Both of those seem more likely to be attempted by Khali.

[Jingus 0]

Oh, you mean the Alabama Slam or whatever it's called this week? I wasn't aware that it had an official name.

 

Yeah, I know the flapjack or backdrop make no sense, because that just requires the type of mobility that Khali doesn't have. Then again, maybe he WAS completely unable to do the move and Ong died because of it. But the move on the fansite makes no sense at all, because it seems to be describing a backdrop where the bumper somehow cuts an extra flip in midair Jack Evans-styles and basically does a 450 to land on his face.

[Bix 0]

Err, Alabama slam, you're right. Hollycaust = Falcon Arrow.

 

Also the fansite description seems to indicate less of a flip and more that he was supposed to push off Khali to get air and instead grabbed him, so Ong to go straight down with his neck tilted back instead of straight or tucked.

[Jingus 0]

Which would kind of make sense, because that's not the first time I heard the "Ong grabbed on" version, and it's way easier to get fucked up doing that on a backdrop rather than on a spinebuster/tree slam, where grabbing on would most likely cause your feet and ass to land on the mat before the rest of you.

 

But the fansite still insists that the move is identical to a backdrop in every way, except for the puzzling part where the guy is supposed to land face-down. The extra midair flip is the only thing I can think of which would accomplish that, and it's sure as hell not something that any concussed rookie should've been trying.

[Scroby 0]

Massaro was the trainer, but I have no idea what the actual story is, but as far as I know Vinnie was the trainer at the time.

[EricMM 0]

Look, the truth is, brain damage is not something you should "work through" because it only gets worse.

 

And of course you don't feel it, you don't have any nerves for feeling pain in the brain.

[The Amazing Rando 0]

I thought general consensus on the Khali/Ong thing was that Khali was holding his lower body for a flapjack but that Ong though he was trying to do a back body drop and went to flip through, only to have Khali basically pull him down onto his head and neck.

[Jingus 0]

Both times?

[J.T. 0]

Getting back to the orginal point, wrestling hurts. Bumping hurts, strikes hurts, chair shots hurt, lots of shit hurts. But some things hurt no matter what and some thing can be altered. Plus, you cant make bumping not hurt, you can make a punch not. So, if your forearm is so stiff that if you miss you will fuck someone up, LIGHTEN UP. Thats all.

 

A question, is it true that American Dragon got a concussion from his last Morishima match after the whole angle of taking off his eye patch and punhcing him repeatedly? Someone told me that.

[DangerousDamon 0]

I hadn't heard about Dragon getting a concussion, but he's crazy, he'll probably try to work through it. He's worked through lots of shit he shouldn't have. His shoulder was jacked up for the last 5 months of his title reign. And of course there's the three way where him, KENTA AND Samoa Joe all got injured.