MLB Off-season Thread

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

Which I'm fine with. I didn't want Hunter anyways.

 

Would have overpaid. Probably for the best.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I can't believe that the Giants would give up Cain or Lincecum for Alex Rios. Look, I really like Alex Rios. Great defensively and has some pop in his bat. However, Cain and Lincecum are young, cost-controlled front line starters. Even if you think Rios has similar value, why would you give up one of the only two homegrown players with upside that you have? Aren't they trying to rid themselves of the Barry Bonds/geriatric team of the mid-'00s and build from within?

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

I can't believe that the Giants would give up Cain or Lincecum for Alex Rios. Look, I really like Alex Rios. Great defensively and has some pop in his bat. However, Cain and Lincecum are young, cost-controlled front line starters. Even if you think Rios has similar value, why would you give up one of the only two homegrown players with upside that you have? Aren't they trying to rid themselves of the Barry Bonds/geriatric team of the mid-'00s and build from within?

 

I too am an Alex Rios fan, and I agree this would be a dumb trade for the Giants.

[CanadianChris 0]

I can't believe that the Giants would give up Cain or Lincecum for Alex Rios. Look, I really like Alex Rios. Great defensively and has some pop in his bat. However, Cain and Lincecum are young, cost-controlled front line starters. Even if you think Rios has similar value, why would you give up one of the only two homegrown players with upside that you have? Aren't they trying to rid themselves of the Barry Bonds/geriatric team of the mid-'00s and build from within?

PleasepleasepleasePLEASE let this trade happen.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

I can't believe that the Giants would give up Cain or Lincecum for Alex Rios. Look, I really like Alex Rios. Great defensively and has some pop in his bat. However, Cain and Lincecum are young, cost-controlled front line starters. Even if you think Rios has similar value, why would you give up one of the only two homegrown players with upside that you have? Aren't they trying to rid themselves of the Barry Bonds/geriatric team of the mid-'00s and build from within?

PleasepleasepleasePLEASE let this trade happen.

 

Lincecum had a 1.25 GB/FB ratio last year. One would assume that he'd be the better bet of the two to pitch his home games at Rogers, but I was looking at some other numbers and found something interesting.

 

Cain had a 5.5% HR/FB ratio, which is actually better than Lincecum (8.2%). So Lincecum is inducing more grounders, but more of his flyballs are going out of the park. With Rogers being 6th in all of MLB last year for home run Park Factor, but 28th for all hits, I'd say minimizing HR is probably what they would want to look for in figuring out which one to go after. I know it seems insane to want to go for Cain instead of Lincecum, but I think the Giants would be more likely to make a deal based on Rios for Cain in the first place, and it seems that it would work out better for the Blue Jays too.

[treble 0]

The rumour was that the Giants would rather give up Lincecum than Cain, but the Jays would only take Lincecum if they could get the Giants to take Glaus, too.

 

Aren't they trying to rid themselves of the Barry Bonds/geriatric team of the mid-'00s and build from within?

Rios is 26, hardly an old man.

[Guest NYankees]

I could have sworn that the Santana to the Red Sox was signed, sealed and delivered yesterday. I guess the Twins wised up and realized that a cancer patient and a shitty centerfielder was a horrible offer. Why give up a dollar and only get 50 cents back.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Lincecum had a 1.25 GB/FB ratio last year. One would assume that he'd be the better bet of the two to pitch his home games at Rogers, but I was looking at some other numbers and found something interesting.

 

Cain had a 5.5% HR/FB ratio, which is actually better than Lincecum (8.2%). So Lincecum is inducing more grounders, but more of his flyballs are going out of the park. With Rogers being 6th in all of MLB last year for home run Park Factor, but 28th for all hits, I'd say minimizing HR is probably what they would want to look for in figuring out which one to go after. I know it seems insane to want to go for Cain instead of Lincecum, but I think the Giants would be more likely to make a deal based on Rios for Cain in the first place, and it seems that it would work out better for the Blue Jays too.

 

I don't think it's insane to want Cain over Lincecum. Matt Cain is younger and has more of a proven major league track record. Given some of the anecdotal stuff about mechanics and abuse in college, it's not a stretch to say that Cain is better. Can't go wrong with either guy though.

 

As for the HR/FB stuff, I think you are looking too much into it. HR are actually prone to fluctuation from one year to the next. Seeing as how we are working with a half-year sample size from Lincecum, I don't know how you can draw any good conclusions from that. Secondly, I'd suspect that groundballs are more likely to turn into hits on Rogers' fast infield than damp ass, sea level San Francisco.

 

 

 

Aren't they trying to rid themselves of the Barry Bonds/geriatric team of the mid-'00s and build from within?

 

Rios is 26, hardly an old man.

 

I didn't mean to imply that Rios was old. I was saying that trading young, cost-controlled pitching was kind of a back asswards way of trying to move away from the older teams they had been fielding over the past five or so years.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

Lincecum had a 1.25 GB/FB ratio last year. One would assume that he'd be the better bet of the two to pitch his home games at Rogers, but I was looking at some other numbers and found something interesting.

 

Cain had a 5.5% HR/FB ratio, which is actually better than Lincecum (8.2%). So Lincecum is inducing more grounders, but more of his flyballs are going out of the park. With Rogers being 6th in all of MLB last year for home run Park Factor, but 28th for all hits, I'd say minimizing HR is probably what they would want to look for in figuring out which one to go after. I know it seems insane to want to go for Cain instead of Lincecum, but I think the Giants would be more likely to make a deal based on Rios for Cain in the first place, and it seems that it would work out better for the Blue Jays too.

 

I don't think it's insane to want Cain over Lincecum. Matt Cain is younger and has more of a proven major league track record. Given some of the anecdotal stuff about mechanics and abuse in college, it's not a stretch to say that Cain is better. Can't go wrong with either guy though.

 

As for the HR/FB stuff, I think you are looking too much into it. HR are actually prone to fluctuation from one year to the next. Seeing as how we are working with a half-year sample size from Lincecum, I don't know how you can draw any good conclusions from that. Secondly, I'd suspect that groundballs are more likely to turn into hits on Rogers' fast infield than damp ass, sea level San Francisco.

 

 

 

Aren't they trying to rid themselves of the Barry Bonds/geriatric team of the mid-'00s and build from within?

 

Rios is 26, hardly an old man.

 

I didn't mean to imply that Rios was old. I was saying that trading young, cost-controlled pitching was kind of back asswards way of trying to move away from the older teams they had been fielding over the past five or so years.

 

Actually, the speed of the turf at Rogers is another reason why I didn't think Cain's flyball tendencies would be as hurtful as Lincecum's groundball tendencies. It doesn't hurt, either, that Cain's flyballs tend less to go for home runs as compared to Lincecum's. So all around, I just thought Cain would be a better bet. I figured most folks would feel the opposite way because Lincecum's "newer," if not younger.

 

But yes, park factors fluctuate year to year in general, actually. Part of it, I guess, is just luck but also teams will change things around in their stadiums. I think the Phillies shifted some stuff around, moved some stuff back, etc. in Citizens Bank Park to make it less of a bandbox before last season.

 

I guess the moral of the story is that you use the information you have and try to make the best decisions with it.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I could have sworn that the Santana to the Red Sox was signed, sealed and delivered yesterday. I guess the Twins wised up and realized that a cancer patient and a shitty centerfielder was a horrible offer. Why give up a dollar and only get 50 cents back.

 

I think a lot of people were quick to jump the gun after the Yankees pulled out. From what I've cobbled together from the various reports out there, a couple of things happened over the past 48 hours. The Twins realized that they lost any leverage they had when the Red Sox had the only offer on the table (which didn't include any superstars) and the Red Sox got cold feet about parting with multiple commodities for a pitcher they didn't necessarily need. The trade's not so much dead or alive as it is dormant.

 

Second of all, just because you are a Yankees fan doesn't mean you have to sound like an idiot. The Red Sox were close to having a deal because they had the players that Minnesota wanted, namely a top pitching prospect, a great defensive outfielder, a power-hitting middle infielder and a couple of high upside prospects. Lester was over cancer nearly a year ago and Coco Crisp is one of the only available CFers that they can afford who addresses their needs. Quit crying... the Yankees could have had him for a comparable package.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

The pain in the ass thing about cancer (besides that it often kills you) is that it likes to come back.

 

We're not talking about a torn labrum or something here. The guy you're trading for might die.

 

(P.S. This did not prevent the Nationals from acquiring Elijah Dukes. Not that I'm saying he associates with the wrong people or could get himself into trouble. I'm not even bullshittin', dawg.)

[Guest NYankees]

I could have sworn that the Santana to the Red Sox was signed, sealed and delivered yesterday. I guess the Twins wised up and realized that a cancer patient and a shitty centerfielder was a horrible offer. Why give up a dollar and only get 50 cents back.

 

I think a lot of people were quick to jump the gun after the Yankees pulled out. From what I've cobbled together from the various reports out there, a couple of things happened over the past 48 hours. The Twins realized that they lost any leverage they had when the Red Sox had the only offer on the table (which didn't include any superstars) and the Red Sox got cold feet about parting with multiple commodities for a pitcher they didn't necessarily need. The trade's not so much dead or alive as it is dormant.

 

Second of all, just because you are a Yankees fan doesn't mean you have to sound like an idiot. The Red Sox were close to having a deal because they had the players that Minnesota wanted, namely a top pitching prospect, a great defensive outfielder, a power-hitting middle infielder and a couple of high upside prospects. Lester was over cancer nearly a year ago and Coco Crisp is the one of the only available CFers that they can afford who addresses their needs. Quit crying... the Yankees could have had him for a comparable package.

 

 

I sound like an idiot? Hahahaha. I am not the stupid narcastic one who believes that a shitty centerfielder and a crappy cancer patient is a better deal than Hughes. Sorry buddy, but Cancer boy is not a great pitching prospect, Coco stinks and the minor leaguers both suck. That is why the deal wasn't done.

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

just because you are a Yankees fan doesn't mean you have to sound like an idiot.

THAT AIN'T TRUE!

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

I could have sworn that the Santana to the Red Sox was signed, sealed and delivered yesterday. I guess the Twins wised up and realized that a cancer patient and a shitty centerfielder was a horrible offer. Why give up a dollar and only get 50 cents back.

 

I think a lot of people were quick to jump the gun after the Yankees pulled out. From what I've cobbled together from the various reports out there, a couple of things happened over the past 48 hours. The Twins realized that they lost any leverage they had when the Red Sox had the only offer on the table (which didn't include any superstars) and the Red Sox got cold feet about parting with multiple commodities for a pitcher they didn't necessarily need. The trade's not so much dead or alive as it is dormant.

 

Second of all, just because you are a Yankees fan doesn't mean you have to sound like an idiot. The Red Sox were close to having a deal because they had the players that Minnesota wanted, namely a top pitching prospect, a great defensive outfielder, a power-hitting middle infielder and a couple of high upside prospects. Lester was over cancer nearly a year ago and Coco Crisp is the one of the only available CFers that they can afford who addresses their needs. Quit crying... the Yankees could have had him for a comparable package.

 

 

I sound like an idiot? Hahahaha. I am not the stupid narcastic one who believes that a shitty centerfielder and a crappy cancer patient is a better deal than Hughes. Sorry buddy, but Cancer boy is not a great pitching prospect, Coco stinks and the minor leaguers both suck. That is why the deal wasn't done.

 

"Narcastic" = narcissistic + sarcastic?

 

I wanted to disagree with your other points too, but I couldn't find anything. The Yankees' package was better than that of the Red Sox.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I sound like an idiot? Hahahaha. I am not the stupid narcastic one who believes that a shitty centerfielder and a crappy cancer patient is a better deal than Hughes. Sorry buddy, but Cancer boy is not a great pitching prospect, Coco stinks and the minor leaguers both suck. That is why the deal wasn't done.

 

First of all, I don't know what narcastic means, so checking the intelligence level I'm dealing with here, I should probably just stop. Oh well.

 

I know that Hughes was the best player being discussed in these negotiations, but the Yankees couldn't put anything together after him that could satisfy the Twins needs. They weren't interested in Melky because he's not any good defensively. You can't put a guy with no range between Delmon Young and Cuddyer/Kubel. It won't work. I don't care if you think Coco sucks, he can play defense and that's important to people who understand that baseball is as much about run prevention as run production.

 

Second, Lowrie is a major league ready shortstop with good power upside and Masterson could be #3 or #4 starter with a little more seasoning or he can be a good bullpen guy immediately. The Yankees don't have any other major league ready talent. That's why the Twins were asking for Kennedy. They needed somebody that they could flip for talent that could fill the actual holes that they have.

 

I understand why the Twins didn't do the deal. I wouldn't have done the deal. But do a little research before running your mouth and not realizing what's coming out of the other end.

[Guest My Pal, the Tortoise]

hahahaha narcastic

 

 

oh god

[Fuzzy Dunlop 0]

crappy cancer

 

Wow, that's a new one.

[Craig Th 0]

It's not like he still has cancer. The kid won game 4 of the WS for goodness sake.

[Guest NYankees]

I sound like an idiot? Hahahaha. I am not the stupid narcastic one who believes that a shitty centerfielder and a crappy cancer patient is a better deal than Hughes. Sorry buddy, but Cancer boy is not a great pitching prospect, Coco stinks and the minor leaguers both suck. That is why the deal wasn't done.

 

First of all, I don't know what narcastic means, so checking the intelligence level I'm dealing with here, I should probably just stop. Oh well.

 

I know that Hughes was the best player being discussed in these negotiations, but the Yankees couldn't put anything together after him that could satisfy the Twins needs. They weren't interested in Melky because he's not any good defensively. You can't put a guy with no range between Delmon Young and Cuddyer/Kubel. It won't work. I don't care if you think Coco sucks, he can play defense and that's important to people who understand that baseball is as much about run prevention as run production.

 

Second, Lowrie is a major league ready shortstop with good power upside and Masterson could be #3 or #4 starter with a little more seasoning or he can be a good bullpen guy immediately. The Yankees don't have any other major league ready talent. That's why the Twins were asking for Kennedy. They needed somebody that they could flip for talent that could fill the actual holes that they have.

 

I understand why the Twins didn't do the deal. I wouldn't have done the deal. But do a little research before running your mouth and not realizing what's coming out of the other end.

 

 

You just contradicted yourself by saying that the Red Sox had the players that the Twins wanted and then you said the offer wasn't good enough and you dont blame the Twins for not wanting someone who could possible relapse in the next 5 years and a crappy overrated, overpaid and shitty cf. MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

As far as the cancer thing, I don't know the re-occurrence rate. I do know that young pitchers are ticking time bombs for injuries. If Lester can develop cancer, Hughes can injure his elbow in April. For baseball teams, the results are roughly the same.

[Guest]

The kid won game 4 of the WS for goodness sake.

He could've won the Cy Young last year and I still wouldn't trade for him.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

As far as the cancer thing, I don't know the re-occurrence rate. I do know that young pitchers are ticking time bombs for injuries. If Lester can develop cancer, Hughes can injure his elbow in April. For baseball teams, the results are roughly the same.

 

Yeah, but would you trade Johan Santana for Phil Hughes post-elbow injury?

[Brett Favre 0]

Santana can get hurt too ya know.

[Cartman 0]

Well regardless I am happy that the trade never went through. The trade involving Ellsbury that is, because I just cant believe the other deals proposed were ever realistically considered by the Twins. The Sox still have trading chips like Lowrie, Lester, and others to use at the trading deadline if need be.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury will be the starting Center Fielder and if Coco does survive the off-season he will be a very solid 4th outfielder.

 

The starting rotation will most likely be: Beckett, Schilling, Dice-K, Lester, and Wakefield. Leaving Buchholz in AAA to start the year if the other 5 are healthy, and he provides great insurance in case one of those 5 gets injured during the season. I just like this team the way it is right now. Maybe get some middle relief help if there is any out there but even that isn't a big hole to fill.

[Guest NYankees]

Well regardless I am happy that the trade never went through.

 

 

Wow, it must be a dark day in hell that both Yankee fans and Red Sox fans are happy that they neither team traded for Santana.

[Nightwing 0]

You just contradicted yourself by saying that the Red Sox had the players that the Twins wanted and then you said the offer wasn't good enough and you dont blame the Twins for not wanting someone who could possible relapse in the next 5 years and a crappy overrated, overpaid and shitty cf. MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND.

 

Indeed. How narcastic of him.

[Cartman 0]

It's not that I wouldn't LOVE having this guy on the team, but i'm not gonna cry and be devastated about it, because I like seeing pl;ayers like Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury, etc. come up through the system and make names for themselves.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

I sound like an idiot? Hahahaha. I am not the stupid narcastic one who believes that a shitty centerfielder and a crappy cancer patient is a better deal than Hughes. Sorry buddy, but Cancer boy is not a great pitching prospect, Coco stinks and the minor leaguers both suck. That is why the deal wasn't done.

 

First of all, I don't know what narcastic means, so checking the intelligence level I'm dealing with here, I should probably just stop. Oh well.

 

I know that Hughes was the best player being discussed in these negotiations, but the Yankees couldn't put anything together after him that could satisfy the Twins needs. They weren't interested in Melky because he's not any good defensively. You can't put a guy with no range between Delmon Young and Cuddyer/Kubel. It won't work. I don't care if you think Coco sucks, he can play defense and that's important to people who understand that baseball is as much about run prevention as run production.

 

Second, Lowrie is a major league ready shortstop with good power upside and Masterson could be #3 or #4 starter with a little more seasoning or he can be a good bullpen guy immediately. The Yankees don't have any other major league ready talent. That's why the Twins were asking for Kennedy. They needed somebody that they could flip for talent that could fill the actual holes that they have.

 

I understand why the Twins didn't do the deal. I wouldn't have done the deal. But do a little research before running your mouth and not realizing what's coming out of the other end.

 

 

You just contracticted yourself by saying that the Red Sox had the players that the Twins wanted and then you said the offer wasn't good enough and you dont blame the Twins for not wanting someone who could possible relapse in the next 5 years and a crappy overrated, overpaid and shitty cf. MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND.

 

I didn't contradict anything. There are two different issues here. The Red Sox package was better than Yankees' because it had players that fit the Twins needs. There's not much of a debate there, as it echoes the Twins actions over the past week. However, I, Cheech, of no connection to any front office, didn't think that it was enough of a package to part with Santana, partly because I feel that the PR hit would be too great but mostly because with the right roster moves the Twins could compete next year with Santana.

 

Second, what do you have against Lester other than the fact that he beat cancer? He was a better prospect than Hughes before the cancer. Yeah, things have changed since then, but he didn't become some shitty, no talent, near death and no hope for any future pitching reclamation project. He's being underrated by the media because of the perception that he's a weak thrower with no control (it's not really true).

 

As for Crisp, what exactly makes him crappy, overrated and overpaid? He can't hit for shit, but he's shown more offensive talent than a guy like Melky has. His defense may be in the best in major league baseball and he's locked up at a below market rate for a couple of more seasons. He is what he is and that's an average hitter with above average defense.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

Santana can get hurt too ya know.

 

It's almost like I didn't say (twice) that that's why the Twins should trade him this off-season and not wait for the trade deadline.

 

Ya know.

[Brett Favre 0]

It's almost like I don't read every single word you post, ya know.