Joe Torre gone from Yankees

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

This came down the pike a few hours ago. Joe Torre rejected a contract offer for the Yankees' managerial job into next season. The deal would have paid Joe Torre $5 million for 2008. If the Yankees made the playoffs a $1 million bonus would be paid, with another million for a divisional series win and a third million for a league championship series win. Making the World Series would have vested an option for 2009. Joe Torre rejected the offer.

 

First off, Torre made $7.5 million this year. Guaranteeing him $5 million and giving him a $500,000 raise ONLY if the Yankees made the World Series has got to be a slap in the face. There was no way he was going to take the offer, so the thought comes to mind that Yankee brass wanted Torre gone, and intentionally low balled him.

 

Second, this news is quite encouraging as a non-Yankees fan. A few points.

 

-This takes away a proven manager from the Yankees who has successfully dealt with the superstars and with early-season slumps. It also eliminates the potential loyalty factor from the free agent signing period.

 

-It indicates new Yankee ownership (Steinbrenner's sons) suck at public relations. The Yankees before their last dynasty were a laughingstock in the baseball world.

 

-It also gives the impression that the Yankee brass believes that failure results simply from not trying hard enough. Pay these guys and they'll succeed! Never mind that part of the problem is simply that you have competition. The Cleveland Indians won 96 games. If you think you're supposed to beat those guys because you're the f'n Yankees, you have a big slice of humble pie coming to you.

 

-Had this incentive existed, can you imagine the panicky manager in the playoffs literally throwing his team with a million dollars at stake on a win? "Joba's gotta throw four innings here, I have a condo payment to make!"

 

Hey Yankees, want to make the World Series? Build a good team and pray. Try building a pitching staff. Build a team that is legitimately the best in the league before you start crying about how you lost again in the playoffs. The Yankees were at best the third best team in the league. They lost to the first or second best.

 

Winning is not an entitlement. I hope someday the Yankees lose 100 games. You think losing a division series is losing. You haven't touched losing yet.

[Guest Smues]

Wow I didn't think they would actually not re-sign him this year. I'd say this was awesome, but I fear them getting another good manager. At the least hopefully this does hurt their ability to re-sign their free agents.

 

And really, if anyone thinks it's Joe's fault that they haven't advanced past the first round the last couple of years they're crazy. The worst thing that could happen next year is the Yankess make it to the ALCS, because then we'll have people yelling SEE SEE IT WAS TORRE'S FAULT SEE!

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Wow, the guy gets you to the playoffs the last 12 years and you throw him an offer like that, along with the fact that he'd still probably have to put up with Big Stein's crap? I can see why he'd walk.

[treble 0]

Like I said in the other thread, I have a bad feeling that this will just be a repeat of all the Theo Epstein bullshit from a few years ago.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

The Yankees' biggest problem now is not finding a new manager but trying to find some way to save face for the organization. This could hurt their position greatly in negotiations with Mo, Posada and A-Rod. The organization looks terrible at the moment and that could create a backlash from fans and players alike in the offseason. Just a terrible miscalculation on their part.

[Guest Gym Class Fallout]

They'll give him a bigger, more guaranteed, three-year contract and he'll take it. Come on, guys. The Yankees never deliver on stuff like this, just like how every year is supposed to be the one they don't make the playoffs when they're like 6 back and 3 under .500, then they do. Torre will stay.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

They'll give him a bigger, more guaranteed, three-year contract and he'll take it. Come on, guys. The Yankees never deliver on stuff like this, just like how every year is supposed to be the one they don't make the playoffs when they're like 6 back and 3 under .500, then they do. Torre will stay.

 

That would imply that the Yankees want to have Torre back and just miscalculated on how much it would take to resign him. That doesn't appear to be what's happening here. It looks like the Yankees made a conscious decision to not bring Joe Torre back, but rather than just come out and say that, they gave him a ridiculous lowball offer that they knew he would reject. That way they come out looking like the good guys for trying to bring Joe back when they never had any intention of having him return.

 

It's all a ploy to save face for getting rid of a Yankee icon. Too bad that the whole thing is completely transparent to the general public. Everyone involved looks like a clown. Big Stein looks like the crazy, babbling grandpa by having the team totalling ignore his ALDS statement, Hank and Hal look like media buffoons for muffing this thing up and Cash looks like he had his balls cut off by Levine and upper management. The whole thing is a farce.

[Brett Favre 0]

This sucks.

 

I guess the Mattingly era begins.

[Guest Gym Class Fallout]

I won't believe he's gone till there's a new manager there. He'll be back.

[Guest Smues]

This sucks.

 

I guess the Mattingly era begins.

I read somewhere recently that he said he wasn't interested in becoming the Yankess manager as he didn't feel he was ready for the job.

[Brett Favre 0]

I hope you're right.

 

Either way, Torre doesn't look that good here IMO. He knows the way the Yankees operate, and he's still the highest paid manager if he signs the deal.

 

EDIT: Smues, I read that too, but then later on his agent said he was ready. I'm not sure if he had anything to do with the second statement, but if he ends up being the manager, I hope he did.

[CanadianChris 0]

I'm not going to jump on the Yankees Are Dead bandwagon until Cashman is no longer GM. As long as he sticks around, the Yankees will still be competitive. It's once he leaves and they stick some schmuck in the front office that the team will crumble.

[CanadianChris 0]

Either way, Torre doesn't look that good here IMO. He knows the way the Yankees operate, and he's still the highest paid manager if he signs the deal.

It's a 33% pay cut. That's still a slap in the face, no matter what everyone else is making. And especially so considering the Yankees were pretty much left for dead in May and still made the playoffs. He has to get some of the credit for that.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Either way, Torre doesn't look that good here IMO. He knows the way the Yankees operate, and he's still the highest paid manager if he signs the deal.

It's a 33% pay cut. That's still a slap in the face, no matter what everyone else is making. And especially so considering the Yankees were pretty much left for dead in May and still made the playoffs. He has to get some of the credit for that.

 

Exactly. If my salary was cut by a third, I'd be mighty pissed.

[Brett Favre 0]

When you get those incentives, it's not that bad. Honestly, look at it this way from a Yankee perspective (which might be overdoing it anyway). They haven't progressed since 2001, and have seen their playoff appearances gone shorter and shorter. It's not that much of a slap to the face especially since he's made tons of millions as manager for a pretty longtime. I'd understand if he was underpaid all this time, and then they gave him an even lower salary. But going from 7.5 to 5 million and then some isn't the worse thing in the world. It really isn't.

 

He knows how unrealistic the expectations are, and since he didn't meet expectations, he got his salary cut unless he reaches those expectations.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Either way, Torre doesn't look that good here IMO. He knows the way the Yankees operate, and he's still the highest paid manager if he signs the deal.

 

How could Joe Torre look bad in all of this? They were asking him to take a paycut of 1/3. Too add insult, they only offered him a one-year deal (has any manager ever been offered one year?) when he implied that he wanted to manage until he was 70 and then filled the thing with performance clauses like he was some middle reliever trying to break his way back into baseball. It's an insulting offer.

 

Look at it this way. What if the A-Rod opts out this offseason and the team says this:

 

"A-Rod, we love what you've done during the regular season. You've won us a lot of ballgames, but we are about winning the World Series. We want you to come back. Here's our offer: 1 year, $18 million and we'll give you a bonus if we have some postseason success. Heck, we'll even bring you back for another year if we win the Series!"

 

That's akin to the Joe Torre offer.

[Brett Favre 0]

Except that A-Rod hasn't been here for like 12 years, and he's not nearing 70, and he's not the leader of the team. Look, I could see both sides, but maybe I'm not losing any sleep over a guy who made 7.5 million the past few years, and gets a paycut that actually has incentives to get him back over what he made. Since when was money based on performance a bad thing? A-Rod delivered an MVP year. It's not the same situation.

[CanadianChris 0]

Al made the point in his original post, but putting incentives in a manager's contract is stupid, and could lead to some pretty damaging consequences. He could end up sacrificing a player's career just for a couple more wins.

[cabbageboy 0]

Yeah this is just so lame. When I first heard about it I thought immediately that the Yankees made him some lowball offer just to say they tried and not to look entirely like the bad guys here. As in they didn't just fire Torre, but really didn't want him back either.

[Brett Favre 0]

I guess they're comfortable enough with Joe to not do that. Also they'd probably intervene if he has Joba pitch 150 pitches a start.

[mike546 0]

Things will certainly feel odd next year. The Rangers and Knicks and Gkiants and all the New York teams have gone through so many coaching changes over the last 12 years, but I always knew Torre would be in the dugout ever season. It's certainly the end of an era.

[Guest NYankees]

Why are you people acting like Joe Torre is 55 years old? The man is 67 and at most was going to manage another 2-3 seasons at the very most. Changing of the guard was bound to happen. Also, if anybody thinks this is going to impact contract negotiations with Posada, Rivera and Arod are complete FOOLS. This is going to most likely be Posadas and Riveras last big contract before retirement and they are going to sign with the team that offers them the MOST MONEY. I do not have to even speak for Arod. Finally, Joe Torre was paid 7 million per year to win CHAMPIONSHIPS and not just to make the playoffs. He was also paid about 4-5 million more than Pinella and LaRussa. Even with the contract the Yankees offered him, he would have been paid double the second highest manager in baseball.

[geniusMoment 0]

Baseball managers are overrated anyway. I'd argue the Yankees would have close to the same record with any reasonable manager.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Why are you people acting like Joe Torre is 55 years old? The man is 67 and at most was going to manage another 2-3 seasons at the very most. Changing of the guard was bound to happen. Also, if anybody thinks this is going to impact contract negotiations with Posada, Rivera and Arod are complete FOOLS. This is going to most likely be Posadas and Riveras last big contract before retirement and they are going to sign with the team that offers them the MOST MONEY. I do not have to even speak for Arod. Finally, Joe Torre was paid 7 million per year to win CHAMPIONSHIPS and not just to make the playoffs. He was also paid about 4-5 million more than Pinella and LaRussa. Even with the contract the Yankees offered him, he would have been paid double the second highest manager in baseball.

Two points to address. One, if you're paying your manager extra money to win championships then you run a pretty stupid organization. I doubt that was the Yankees' intention the last few years. Second, if you're an executive or person of prominence in any field, do you willingly accept a pay cut after 12 years of service? I wouldn't.

 

I don't object to the Yankees changing managers. This was just a very slip-shod method of doing it. And let me stress that the proposed terms came to light because the Yankees held a press conference and announced them.

[Guest NYankees]

Why are you people acting like Joe Torre is 55 years old? The man is 67 and at most was going to manage another 2-3 seasons at the very most. Changing of the guard was bound to happen. Also, if anybody thinks this is going to impact contract negotiations with Posada, Rivera and Arod are complete FOOLS. This is going to most likely be Posadas and Riveras last big contract before retirement and they are going to sign with the team that offers them the MOST MONEY. I do not have to even speak for Arod. Finally, Joe Torre was paid 7 million per year to win CHAMPIONSHIPS and not just to make the playoffs. He was also paid about 4-5 million more than Pinella and LaRussa. Even with the contract the Yankees offered him, he would have been paid double the second highest manager in baseball.

Two points to address. One, if you're paying your manager extra money to win championships then you run a pretty stupid organization. I doubt that was the Yankees' intention the last few years. Second, if you're an executive or person of prominence in any field, do you willingly accept a pay cut after 12 years of service? I wouldn't.

 

I don't object to the Yankees changing managers. This was just a very slip-shod method of doing it. And let me stress that the proposed terms came to light because the Yankees held a press conference and announced them.

 

The Yankees added the incentives to make the contract seem more favorable than 5 million per year but knew all along he wouldn't accept. Their whole goal was to offer a deal that seems good enough but not great enough to accept to try to save face.

 

Plus I forgot another point. Look at the Yankees last 7-8 post seasons. They haven't won in 7 years. 2001 they lost a heartbreaker to the D'Backs who had Johnson, Schilling and a fluke 9th inning off of Rivera. 2002 was a first round upset by the Angels. 2003 had a World Series upset by the rookie Marlins. 2004 had the 3-0 blown lead against the Red Sox. The last 3 years have been first round loses in the playoffs. It's not like they are getting rid of him after a World Series appearance. The job he was being payed to do wasn't being accomplished anymore.

 

With that being said, there is one thing that the Yankees are going to miss. Torre was great at managing most people and their egos off and on the field. In terms of the human aspect. 99 percent of the players on the Yankees loved playing for him and respected him. That cannot be replaced with the next manager.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

As long as they have money and the Red Sox to contend with, the Yankees wont be anywhere close to finishing lower than 2nd in the AL East no matter who the manager is.

 

 

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

As long as they have money and the Red Sox to contend with, the Yankees wont be anywhere close to finishing lower than 2nd in the AL East no matter who the manager is.

It could happen. There isn't a single impact starting pitcher on the market outside of Andy Pettitte, for example. You can only do so much with money. You can't win unless you bring up stars through the farm system.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Plus I forgot another point. Look at the Yankees last 7-8 post seasons. They haven't won in 7 years. 2001 they lost a heartbreaker to the D'Backs who had Johnson, Schilling and a fluke 9th inning off of Rivera. 2002 was a first round upset by the Angels. 2003 had a World Series upset by the rookie Marlins. 2004 had the 3-0 blown lead against the Red Sox. The last 3 years have been first round loses in the playoffs. It's not like they are getting rid of him after a World Series appearance. The job he was being payed to do wasn't being accomplished anymore.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is that there is only one championship, and 30 teams fighting for it. Forget the $200 million payroll. It's not Joe Torre's job to assemble the team. All he can do is make a run with the roster he's given. The Yankees have not been more talented than all the other American League teams, so it's silly to outright expect them to win. There are good teams in the postseason, teams built to beat the Yankees.

[Guest NYankees]

Plus I forgot another point. Look at the Yankees last 7-8 post seasons. They haven't won in 7 years. 2001 they lost a heartbreaker to the D'Backs who had Johnson, Schilling and a fluke 9th inning off of Rivera. 2002 was a first round upset by the Angels. 2003 had a World Series upset by the rookie Marlins. 2004 had the 3-0 blown lead against the Red Sox. The last 3 years have been first round loses in the playoffs. It's not like they are getting rid of him after a World Series appearance. The job he was being payed to do wasn't being accomplished anymore.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is that there is only one championship, and 30 teams fighting for it. Forget the $200 million payroll. It's not Joe Torre's job to assemble the team. All he can do is make a run with the roster he's given. The Yankees have not been more talented than all the other American League teams, so it's silly to outright expect them to win. There are good teams in the postseason, teams built to beat the Yankees.

 

 

Thats understandable, but I can easily say that the Yankees shouldn't have lost in the 2003 World Series and blown a 3-0 lead against the Red Sox the next year. We all have to understand that their is alot of scrutiny when you are paid that much and have a payroll that high. It is either win or go home and that is what happened. On the Yankees you are being paid to win championships and anything less is a failure.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Plus I forgot another point. Look at the Yankees last 7-8 post seasons. They haven't won in 7 years. 2001 they lost a heartbreaker to the D'Backs who had Johnson, Schilling and a fluke 9th inning off of Rivera. 2002 was a first round upset by the Angels. 2003 had a World Series upset by the rookie Marlins. 2004 had the 3-0 blown lead against the Red Sox. The last 3 years have been first round loses in the playoffs. It's not like they are getting rid of him after a World Series appearance. The job he was being payed to do wasn't being accomplished anymore.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is that there is only one championship, and 30 teams fighting for it. Forget the $200 million payroll. It's not Joe Torre's job to assemble the team. All he can do is make a run with the roster he's given. The Yankees have not been more talented than all the other American League teams, so it's silly to outright expect them to win. There are good teams in the postseason, teams built to beat the Yankees.

 

 

Thats understandable, but I can easily say that the Yankees shouldn't have lost in the 2003 World Series and blown a 3-0 lead against the Red Sox the next year. We all have to understand that their is alot of scrutiny when you are paid that much and have a payroll that high. It is either win or go home and that is what happened. On the Yankees you are being paid to win championships and anything less is a failure.

 

So basically what you are saying is that the Yankees are looking for a scapegoat rather than trying to solve the real problem. I think most of us can agree on that.

 

The problem is when the blame starts going to people who actually are tremendous assets to the team (ex. A-Rod) and by looking to can someone everytime they lose they make the team worse in the process. See most of the 80s and the early 90s for plenty of examples of this. This same line of thinking has doomed the Redskins to mediocrity in the NFL for the past decade. Looking for somebody to blame only hurts the team unless they actually ARE to blame.