NBA 2008 - the home stretch

[Ripper 0]

The thought that defense wins championships is something people have tried to carry over from football without it being slightly true in the NBA.

 

Fact of the matter is, the only teams you can shut down are teams that suck offensively and have no ability to mix up. Teams that can only shoot jump shots or teams that can only score down low. When it gets into the playoffs, it comes down to outscoring the other team and a few importand defensive plays here and there.

 

Thats why it alwasy annoyed me to watch commentators say the suns couldn't beat the spurs because the spurs are a great defensive team and the suns are not, then the game ends 115 - 113 with the SUPER DEFENSIVE SPURS holding the suns to 55 percent shooting.

 

In the playoffs, its where the team with the best 1-2 players take over and that is what decides the game.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

And the last NBA Championship team that couldn't play defense was who?

[Ripper 0]

Its not like the best defenses have been winning the series.

 

People tend to confuse low scores for good defense when really its all about pace. The Pistons and Spurs had low scoring games not because thei were such defensive juggernauts that they could score on each other. They both are grind it out teams that score deep in the shot clock and probably pass up 2-3 good shots in favor of a great shot in the flow of the offense.

 

These same teams that are so amazing defensively some how manage to give up 120 on a team that runs alot. They might still win, but when the other team pushes the pace, they have to follow suit. The team that wins will be the one that can grind it out and push the pace. And thats where you will find all the champions.

 

Heat - Wade, Williams, Posey pushing the pace, Haslim, Shaq and nice pick and roll in halfcourt when it slowed down.

Spurs - Parker, Manu when pushing the pace, Duncan when slowing it down.

Pistons - the whole damn team when pushing the pace, the whole damn team when slowing it down.

Lakers - Kobe and the guards pushing the pace when ever possible, Shaq and the triangle to slow it down.

 

 

Keep going back and you will keep finding it. Diversity whens championships in the NBA. Not defense. You can't be Nuggets bad defensively, but you can be average. Because that is what a great offense will do to any great defense anyway. Render it average.

[PUT THAT DICK IN MY MOUTH! 0]

You can't be Nuggets bad defensively, but you can be average.

 

The Nuggets actually aren't that bad defensively. It only looks like they are because they play at the fastest pace in the league and thus end up giving up a ton of points every game. If you break it down and look at their opponents' points-per-possession instead of points-per-game they're actually in like the top 10 or so in the league. They're also one of the best teams in the league at forcing turnovers. They're by no means a great defensive team (they gamble a lot and for some reason seem to have major problems playing D for a full 48), but they're also not as horrible as a lot of dumbass TV "experts" make them out to be.

[Guest]

I've seen them play in person, and yes, they are one of the worst defensive teams I've ever seen.

[naiwf 0]

The thought that defense wins championships is something people have tried to carry over from football without it being slightly true in the NBA.

 

Fact of the matter is, the only teams you can shut down are teams that suck offensively and have no ability to mix up. Teams that can only shoot jump shots or teams that can only score down low. When it gets into the playoffs, it comes down to outscoring the other team and a few importand defensive plays here and there.

 

Thats why it alwasy annoyed me to watch commentators say the suns couldn't beat the spurs because the spurs are a great defensive team and the suns are not, then the game ends 115 - 113 with the SUPER DEFENSIVE SPURS holding the suns to 55 percent shooting.

 

In the playoffs, its where the team with the best 1-2 players take over and that is what decides the game.

 

So how come MVP Nash, and two All-NBA talents haven't won a championship yet? You'd think having 3 top 15 players would be enough.

[Ripper 0]

The thought that defense wins championships is something people have tried to carry over from football without it being slightly true in the NBA.

 

Fact of the matter is, the only teams you can shut down are teams that suck offensively and have no ability to mix up. Teams that can only shoot jump shots or teams that can only score down low. When it gets into the playoffs, it comes down to outscoring the other team and a few importand defensive plays here and there.

 

Thats why it alwasy annoyed me to watch commentators say the suns couldn't beat the spurs because the spurs are a great defensive team and the suns are not, then the game ends 115 - 113 with the SUPER DEFENSIVE SPURS holding the suns to 55 percent shooting.

 

In the playoffs, its where the team with the best 1-2 players take over and that is what decides the game.

 

So how come MVP Nash, and two All-NBA talents haven't won a championship yet? You'd think having 3 top 15 players would be enough.

 

The suns were one diminsional. They couldn't play a half court offense. becaues Amare Stoudimire has no back to the basket game. He is a good face up shooter, and could run the pick and roll all day, but that was about the end of their offensive scheme. if you didn't double the screen and roll, then they could be beat.

 

And its not like the teams that have beaten then (the Spurs and the mavs) didn't have some great players of their own.

 

The Suns lost to a better spurs team, then they were missing Amare and Raja against the Mavs and then lost to a evenly matched Spurs team where someone had to lose (I will not point out the other stuff...just say that they lost).

 

Its not like they have just been getting stomped on.

 

And just to repeat what King just said, I could give a crap about stats or what analyst say, I have watched Denver play quite a bit and yes, they are horrible defensively. Jaw droppingly bad.

 

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Doesn't help that the Suns' defense isn't that good either. But you'd never hear that from Ripper, of course.

[Ripper 0]

The Suns were one of the better defensive teams in the league last year and the year before(definately 10, though I would argue top 5-6). this year, they were horrible for much of the season, and the first year in the Nash era, they were also horrible. Now they are average.

 

But honestly, if you want to argue the defense if everything case, the suns having two WCF's and a second round appearance doesn't actually help that case if you want to maintain they are bad defensively. One way or the other on that one.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

Its not like the best defenses have been winning the series.

I didn't say best defense, or elite defense. I'm talking about teams that can't play defense. You suggested that the saying "defense wins championships" is some kind of meme that isn't backed up by the league's history; I challenge you to prove that to be false. I'm not asking you to name me a team that wasn't one of the top 2-3 defensive teams that won, I'm asking you to name me a bad defensive team that won. Who was the last team that wasn't at least in the top third of the league in defense to win a championship?

[Ripper 0]

Thats kinda mixed right there. If you are saying defense wins championships you are suggesting that a championship team is there because of their defense.

 

Which isn't true.

 

I can name plenty of great defensive teams that got sent packing because they couldn't score. You don't have to be a bad defensive team to back up my point. You just needed to win and not because of your defense. In the NBA offense wins championships, plain and simple. Good defense is not the cornerstone of winning a championship. average defense and a multifaceted offense is the key.

 

And the 95 rockets would count as a team that wasn't that good defensively. Nither was the Miami Heat that year. THe 01 Lakers. All of them were pretty average defensive team.

 

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

Average =/= bad. None of those teams you mentioned played bad defense.

 

Even a very good offensive team has to play "good enough" defense. If offense won championships, you could hand the trophy to the Warriors.

[alfdogg 0]

Chicago sure does love its Taco Bell.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

The Suns were one of the better defensive teams in the league last year and the year before(definately 10, though I would argue top 5-6). this year, they were horrible for much of the season, and the first year in the Nash era, they were also horrible. Now they are average.

 

But honestly, if you want to argue the defense if everything case, the suns having two WCF's and a second round appearance doesn't actually help that case if you want to maintain they are bad defensively. One way or the other on that one.

 

The fuck? Golden State eliminated Dallas. Does that mean Golden State has the blueprint for success? No. Look, there was a reason Phoenix traded Shawn Marion for Shaq. It wasn't to shore up that offense. It was to get someone that could in theory block shots and disrupt the inside game for other teams. If they had to trade for a 36 or something year old center whose body is breaking down, that tells me that Phoenix is realizing what they had wasn't going to cut it. Citing a few conference finals appearances and a second round appearance does nothing to dissuade the argument that they are not good defensively, not on the level that they can win it all. That's what my argument is. You need a defense that is good enough to win it all. Phoenix can score all the points in the world, but other teams are just going to do better than them, until Phoenix plays defense better. The Jordan Bulls didn't win championships until they put a better group of defenders around Jordan and Jordan stepped up his defensive game (wasn't he Defensive Player of the Year a few times?). Look at those teams, only Jordan and Scottie Pippen presented a consistent offensive threat for other teams to worry about. No one was spending nights worrying how to stop BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant, Steve Kerr, or Luc Longley. What they offered to the Bulls were defense, and that's what pushed them over the hump.

[naiwf 0]

The Knicks managed to make the NBA Finals twice with atrocious offensive teams. Granted the WC has been tougher over the last couple of years than the EC was in '94 & '99, but a lockdown defensive team has a better chance of getting the 85-95 points needed to win a tough postseason game than Phoenix, Denver or Golden State does of scoring 110-120 every time in order to win the 12 games needed to make the Finals and the 16 needed to win the trophy.

 

 

Also are the Hornets tanking tonight or just getting their asses kicked? It's 46-22 with 3 1/2 gone in the 2nd Quarter.

[Guest]

20th Pacific Division title in 38 years, so that's good. Seeing as we split the season series with New Orleans, the tiebreak goes to the conference records. So basically, if we win the rest of our games and they lose one of their's, the #1 spot is ours via the tiebreak. To be completely fair...the #2 side of the bracket looks like hell, while the #1 side doesn't, for the Lakers anyway. Getting the #1 seed is of the utmost importance, unless of course, Houston happens to slide into the #3 spot, knocking San Antonio to 5th, which is what would happen should we beat them on Sunday. Then everything evens out and it doesn't really matter, so, Houston needs to lose a game or two. If you can't tell, I'm pretty nervous.

[Ripper 0]

1: With the Knicks you are once again citing pace and not defense. Defense is stopping someone. Pace is just not shooting the ball so that the other team can't shoot the ball. The Knicks made the finals TWICE by just slowing the game down to disgusting levels (and a horrible 4 point play).

 

2: Golden State is not a good offensive team. Once again, scoring alot of points doesn't make you a good offensive team. If you are just a jump shooting and fast break team, that is once aspect of offense that can be taken away. A good offensive team is one that can go to something else when you take away one thing. A team with multiple dimisions.

 

3. The suns got worse defensively in trading Marion. He is probably the best defensive player in the NBA. They traded for Shaq to have a big body in there and save Amare and to have someone in the half court offense because just pick and rolling with Amare wasn't getting it done. With the addition of Shaq, they added just another aspect to their offense to be able to win.

 

4: The BULLS? They got rid of a bunch of defensive bigs and got a bunch of shooters to surround Jordan and pippen in the triangle when they got over the hump. the bulls problem was that their team was built around scoring at the rim and the Pistons would beat the ever loving shit out of you if you came in the lane. So they got shooters. And started putting one of the best defensive players ever on point guards. They did get better defensively in the regular season, but come playoff time, the ability for them to spread the floor is what changed.

 

Now the 72 win team...thats different. that was a disgustingly good at every aspect of the team guys, but the first couple of championships? They were averaging nearly 106-110 points a game and giving up 99-101 points per game. The same kind of stats that make people call phoenix horrible defensively these last few years.

 

I don't see how saying that because a team isn't BAD defensively that means that defense wins championships.

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

Ripper is shouting 12 and Slim is countering with a dozen, this isn't even really an argument. I don't think anyone is saying defense isn't important to a championship team, but it isn't THE thing. There is no THE thing. Winning four games first is THE thing, and every team that does that has a different way of doing it.

 

And c'mon, you gotta agree with Ripper on one thing, judging a team's defense solely on points allowed is like judging a baseball player solely on RBI. Pace means so much.

 

 

[Precious Roy 0]

One thing I'll say for the Bulls is that they had two of the very best perimeter defenders in Pippen and Jordan, which made up for not having an inside-out team defense. It's definitely crucial in the playoffs, moreso than having a great 5 man team defense I think, to have a great individual defender or two, as long as the rest of the guys can play off of that. The Houston championship teams weren't great one on one defensively, better on the first club with Maxwell and Thorpe, but they had the best defensive player in the league at the time in Hakeem, he was brilliant, and that alone allowed them to be good was enough. The Lakers teams in the 90's had Kobe to lock people down when it mattered and Shaq as the stopper inside, Fox and Fisher were pests but they were beatable, they weren't great defensive teams but they had the great individual defenders. "Defense wins Championships" rings true, but it doesn't mean that the "best defensive team" has the best shot at winning, which I think is what Ripper was getting at.

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

One thing I'll say for the Bulls is that they had two of the very best perimeter defenders in Pippen and Jordan, which made up for not having an inside-out team defense. It's definitely crucial in the playoffs, moreso than having a great 5 man team defense I think, to have a great individual defender or two, as long as the rest of the guys can play off of that. The Houston championship teams weren't great one on one defensively, better on the first club with Maxwell and Thorpe, but they had the best defensive player in the league at the time in Hakeem, he was brilliant, and that alone allowed them to be good was enough. The Lakers teams in the 90's had Kobe to lock people down when it mattered and Shaq as the stopper inside, Fox and Fisher were pests but they were beatable, they weren't great defensive teams but they had the great individual defenders. "Defense wins Championships" rings true, but it doesn't mean that the "best defensive team" has the best shot at winning, which I think is what Ripper was getting at.

 

I pronounce your name "Precious Wah" in my head.

[Rendclaw 0]

Provided of course that they can win a few more basketball games in the regular season...

More than forty-nine?

 

The West is so insane, two or three games would make the difference.

[naiwf 0]

1: With the Knicks you are once again citing pace and not defense. Defense is stopping someone. Pace is just not shooting the ball so that the other team can't shoot the ball. The Knicks made the finals TWICE by just slowing the game down to disgusting levels (and a horrible 4 point play).

 

Now the 72 win team...thats different. that was a disgustingly good at every aspect of the team guys, but the first couple of championships? They were averaging nearly 106-110 points a game and giving up 99-101 points per game. The same kind of stats that make people call phoenix horrible defensively these last few years.

 

You just cited pace to prove a point and then completely ignored it at the end of the same post. Back in the '90-'91 season only 3 teams scored under 100 PPG (Dallas 99.9, Minny 99.6 & Sac 96.7) and 7 teams scored 110+. So giving up ~100 points a game was actually playing above the numbers back then.

 

However, in '04-'05 only 6 teams broke 100 points a game with 10 teams scoring less than 95 a game. Giving up ~100 per game is actually playing below the league numbers in that year. In the words of Mark Jackson, you're better than that.

[Guest]

If we beat Sacramento on Tuesday, the #1 seed is ours. OURS.

[CanadianChris 0]

If we beat Sacramento on Tuesday, the #1 seed is ours. OURS.

After listening to everyone the past three weeks, it'll probably seal Kobe's MVP, too.

[chaosrage 0]

The thought that defense wins championships is something people have tried to carry over from football without it being slightly true in the NBA.

 

Fact of the matter is, the only teams you can shut down are teams that suck offensively and have no ability to mix up. Teams that can only shoot jump shots or teams that can only score down low. When it gets into the playoffs, it comes down to outscoring the other team and a few importand defensive plays here and there.

 

Thats why it alwasy annoyed me to watch commentators say the suns couldn't beat the spurs because the spurs are a great defensive team and the suns are not, then the game ends 115 - 113 with the SUPER DEFENSIVE SPURS holding the suns to 55 percent shooting.

 

In the playoffs, its where the team with the best 1-2 players take over and that is what decides the game.

 

So how come MVP Nash, and two All-NBA talents haven't won a championship yet? You'd think having 3 top 15 players would be enough.

 

I believe we all know that the Suns were screwed last year. And in the previous year, they didn't have one of those ALL-NBA talents. They may have still won it though if Bell hadn't got injured.

[Damaramu 0]

I'm having trouble getting up for these playoffs. On one hand I'm glad the Celtics are awesome and may go all the way. On the other hand I'm not really wanting to see the Lakers at all and they may go all the way. I doubt I'd watch the finals if they were in it. Ugh. Hopefully the Spurs or Suns can reach the finals to entertain me.

[Damaramu 0]

If we beat Sacramento on Tuesday, the #1 seed is ours. OURS.

 

 

Don't the Rockets have to lose too?

[Guest]

Only if New Orleans loses. Division ties take precedence over anything else, so if New Orleans and Houston finish with the same record, New Orleans wins the divisional tiebreaker, pushing Houston out of the #1 seed race. Can't get the #1 seed without winning the division. At least, that's what it says on NBA.com. Who knows, really.

 

Needless to say, I don't think New Orleans is going to lose, and I don't think Houston is going to win a back to back at high altitude in Denver and Utah. That would be something if they did.

 

If all teams win out,

[CanadianChris 0]

I'm having trouble getting up for these playoffs. On one hand I'm glad the Celtics are awesome and may go all the way. On the other hand I'm not really wanting to see the Lakers at all and they may go all the way. I doubt I'd watch the finals if they were in it. Ugh. Hopefully the Spurs or Suns can reach the finals to entertain me.

Are you serious? The West playoffs could be one of the all-time greatest. The East playoffs will be good at least once they get to the second round. And you can't possibly tell me you wouldn't watch a Celtics-Lakers Finals.

[Maztinho 0]

I'd freak out for a Lakers-Celtics match up purely based on the fact that I discovered the NBA while that rivalry had some legs in the 80's. And I'd root for the C's cause I despise the Lakers.