TNA ratings drop

[Matt Young 0]

Remember the "Fight for the Right" tournament? Just look at the second round. Nothing makes sense!

 

The Guns were both eliminated due to the no contest, and Christian took the place of whomever might have won. Not sure if there was an angle that led to that. Harris was thrown in since TNA was stupid and booked Rikishi in the thing despite not having him under contract.

[Golgo 13 0]

I can tell you that when Joe started whining about his contract and title shots and ruining Christmas is when I stopped watching. I believe they were trying for a Stone Cold thing, which was merely pathetic in comparison. He came off as nothing more than a whiner and sore loser destined for a heel turn, but they kept pushing him as a face and expected everyone to react positively to a poor imitation who didn't hit anywhere close to the archetype they were going for.

 

It was poor booking and planning from the start. I didn't even know what Joe's beef was, really, or what he was rebelling against. What, a face office that gave him his opportunities, but because he was dumb enough to fall for Angle's schemes, decided to hold them hostage. So it didn't help the storyline in that Cornette's office is generally fair and Joe was kind of a dick about everything. I don't know who thought it was a good idea when they came up with it or supported such characterization, especially when no less than a year before Joe was at his best as a ruthless ass kicker, which despite anyone's physique, translates well no matter which side of the fence they're on. If they were really going for Stone Cold or a common man people can relate to, what better than a fat guy capable of brutally murdering people, which is what they should've stuck with.

[claydude14 0]

I agree with the fact that most WWE fans won't accept Joe due to his physique. It's all I ever fucking hear when Samoa Joe is wrestling. "What the fuck why doesn't he just lose some weight and get ripped? I don't wanna watch some fat dude."

[Brocklock 0]

"What the fuck why doesn't he just lose some weight and get ripped? I don't wanna watch some fat dude."

 

Yeah, despite the physique, Joe is still an awesome wrestler. Even though, he hasn't been motivated the last year or so during TNA, that doesn't take away from four years of great wrestling in the indies.. I'm glad the internet wasn't as popular when Vader and Terry Gordy were around. If it was, we'd be getting complaints about them.

[The Truthiness 0]

The difference between Vader/Gordy and Joe, is they were awesome wrestlers and had personality. Joe being fat isn't the problem, Joe being boring combined with being a average performer is the problem.

[luke-o 0]

I don't want to get into this argument again, but Joe is far from an average worker. Has his work been steller in the past year? Probably not, but it's more than likely down to his lack of motivation.

 

But his character does suck.

[The Truthiness 0]

I don't want to get into this argument again, but Joe is far from an average worker. Has his work been steller in the past year? Probably not, but it's more than likely down to his lack of motivation.

 

But his character does suck.

 

Joe is not that far from a average worker. The "he sucks because he isn't motivated" defense, is such a pussy excuse and cop out, that I really don't take it seriously. If "lack of motivation" is the reason he's mediocre worker, than he doesn't deserve to be the champion. But I doubt "lack of motivation' is the reason Joe has been sucking for 2 years, maybe he just isn't, you know, that good. To be honest, I wasn't that impressed with him in ROH either.

[Jingus 0]

Did you ever see the Kobashi match?

[The Truthiness 0]

Did you ever see the Kobashi match?

 

 

Seen it Live and it was awesome, mostly because of Kobashi, which is why I went to the show.

[Hasbeen2 0]

Taking Selina from the group is a bad idea.

 

I agree. She is not used a lot in the Knockout Division, but it's good to have her with the group. I'm sure when they first brought her in, at the time there was no thought about having Guerrero with them. I think the bigger the group the better.

 

I agree too, the more out there to interfere, the better.

[OldSchoolWrestling 0]

Does anyone think the ratings would go up if they didn't show a replay on Saturday? If there is something better to do on Thursdays I usually won't care because I know I can catch the Saturday replay.

 

As far as Salinas I think it is good that she stays with the group as they may be able to help her win and keep the Knockout title for a bit.

[luke-o 0]

I don't want to get into this argument again, but Joe is far from an average worker. Has his work been steller in the past year? Probably not, but it's more than likely down to his lack of motivation.

 

But his character does suck.

 

Joe is not that far from a average worker. The "he sucks because he isn't motivated" defense, is such a pussy excuse and cop out, that I really don't take it seriously. If "lack of motivation" is the reason he's mediocre worker, than he doesn't deserve to be the champion. But I doubt "lack of moativation' is the reason Joe has been sucking for 2 years, maybe he just isn't, you know, that good. To be honest, I wasn't that impressed with him in ROH either.

 

You think JBL is a good worker. He's not.

 

I think the reason his matches have been lacking in the past year has been who he's opposite. Kurt can still pull it out every now and again but hasn't been on form for ages, Steiners' run in TNA has been better than usual, but nothing spectacular... actually who else has he faced other than Christian (who he had a great matche with)?

[The Truthiness 0]

I don't want to get into this argument again, but Joe is far from an average worker. Has his work been steller in the past year? Probably not, but it's more than likely down to his lack of motivation.

 

But his character does suck.

 

Joe is not that far from a average worker. The "he sucks because he isn't motivated" defense, is such a pussy excuse and cop out, that I really don't take it seriously. If "lack of motivation" is the reason he's mediocre worker, than he doesn't deserve to be the champion. But I doubt "lack of moativation' is the reason Joe has been sucking for 2 years, maybe he just isn't, you know, that good. To be honest, I wasn't that impressed with him in ROH either.

 

You think JBL is a good worker. He's not.

 

I think the reason his matches have been lacking in the past year has been who he's opposite. Kurt can still pull it out every now and again but hasn't been on form for ages, Steiners' run in TNA has been better than usual, but nothing spectacular... actually who else has he faced other than Christian (who he had a great matche with)?

 

His gimmick is he's a "mauling millionaire", and he does it well, everything from his style of wrestling to his promo's go perfectly with the character he is potraying, and he draws great heat. He's a perfect foil for any face in WWE, there is nothing wrong with JBL.

 

Samoa Joe is supposed to be a badass, but his style doesn't scream badass unless he's in the ring with a X division guy, who's bumping like a pinfall for his laughable offense. None of the heels seem to take him seriously, and his main ally has been treating him like a goof for months now. None of that screams baddass, plus him having a generic name and a generic look doesn't do him any favors either. Comparing JBL with Samoa Joe is not really something you want to do, because Joe doesn't hold up well against him.

 

[luke-o 0]

So your saying that JBL is a better worker than Joe because he has a better gimmick?

 

Good one.

[The Truthiness 0]

Not just because of the gimmick, but how the matches are structured to fit that gimmick, and how he can work in a variety of ways with different faces.

 

Being a good worker isn't about who watches the most puro matches and can do all the moves from those matches (JOE). It is about having a good character and having a style of wrestling and the personality that compliments that character, so that when they get in the ring with another character. They can combine their wrestling style and personalities, create a good story, and sell it to the fans. JBL does this well, with a variety of opponents. Joe, doesn't do this well.

 

Joe was at his best when he was in ROH, because at least he had guys like Danielson, who could lay out good matches with anybody, and guys like Nigel, Low Ki, and Homicide, because they could recklessly stiff each other. In ROH, that is acceptable, because the company is shooting for a niche audience, and that is what the audience is paying/wants too see. TNA isn’t shooting for that, they’re shooting for a bigger mainstream audience. Joe isn’t the guy that’s going to bring that crowd in, unless something drastic happens in the next few months.

[The Niggardly King 0]

I agree with Truthiness.

 

I don't know about everyone on here crapping on Joe... every time he's been positioned in the main event or a secondary main event... it gets better buys. In fact he is their best draw... so I don't know what the whole thing is about the casual fan seeing a fat dude and all that. I always crapped on Joe for his look in the past, but this was before he was put in a position to draw. He's the most consistent PPV draw TNA has, his merchandise sells pretty damn well for TNA merchandise and most people who have seen him who aren't TNA fans take a notice to him. I just don't take TV ratings seriously, as in the TNA and even WWE they've hit their ceiling... and they're still attracting the same core audience.

 

I'll just find it really fucking depressing if TNA has managed to kill off that one true homegrown draw. Of course... they've killed off guys who could have drawn back in the weekly PPV days(The Truth, Raven, AJ) and when they switched to monthly PPVs (Monty Brown, AJ again).

 

[Jingus 0]

I just don't agree with the sentiment that Joe can't draw. I think TNA has badly abused his character ever since the Angle feud, but I see nothing wrong with the guy himself. I'm not just talking about ROH and other big smark shows where people came out in droves. Just as an anecdote: there's a really old-school indy company called Wrestle Birmingham which runs shows in Alabama. And when I say "old school" I mean "they did a Tully Blanchard vs. Dusty Rhodes match in 2006". And on this redneckiest of redneck shows, you know what the single biggest-drawing main event they ever had was? Samoa Joe vs. AJ Styles, back around the time that they were feuding in the X division. Over a thousand paying customers to a little southern backwoods indy show. They made a bigger profit on that one show than TNA made that entire year. So it's not like people aren't willing to watch this guy

 

Saying JBL is a better in-ring worker than Joe is just silly. And I like JBL, I'm the only guy who liked his Wrestlemania 21 match with Cena, but his number of really good matches doesn't come anywhere near the list of Joe's best work. For one, I'd say Bradshaw has never once had a match in his life with any opponent which was near as good as the Joebashi match. And, Joe's "laughable offense"? What? He's a big thick Samoan dude who's basically doing a nu-age Taz gimmick and looks like he's killing people. How is that not credible?

[The Truthiness 0]

I just don't agree with the sentiment that Joe can't draw. I think TNA has badly abused his character ever since the Angle feud, but I see nothing wrong with the guy himself. I'm not just talking about ROH and other big smark shows where people came out in droves. Just as an anecdote: there's a really old-school indy company called Wrestle Birmingham which runs shows in Alabama. And when I say "old school" I mean "they did a Tully Blanchard vs. Dusty Rhodes match in 2006". And on this redneckiest of redneck shows, you know what the single biggest-drawing main event they ever had was? Samoa Joe vs. AJ Styles, back around the time that they were feuding in the X division. Over a thousand paying customers to a little southern backwoods indy show. They made a bigger profit on that one show than TNA made that entire year. So it's not like people aren't willing to watch this guy

 

Saying JBL is a better in-ring worker than Joe is just silly. And I like JBL, I'm the only guy who liked his Wrestlemania 21 match with Cena, but his number of really good matches doesn't come anywhere near the list of Joe's best work. For one, I'd say Bradshaw has never once had a match in his life with any opponent which was near as good as the Joebashi match. And, Joe's "laughable offense"? What? He's a big thick Samoan dude who's basically doing a nu-age Taz gimmick and looks like he's killing people. How is that not credible?

 

 

I really don't think Joe has a better match than Eddie/JBL from Judgment Day, or a better match than JBL/Mysterio Judgment Day 2006, also his matches with Booker T and Benoit were better than anything Joe has done. Yeah, Joe has a lot of good matches, no disputing that, but they were just that, good matches. The Joe/Kobashi match was awesome, just for the historic significance, is probably the only match that comes close to JBL best matches. That was Joe's best match ever and it was mostly because of Kobashi, than you turn around and watch Joe/Misawa, and it is just horrible, and even the commentators started laughing at Joe's performance, he was exposed. The last time Joe was truly awesome, outside of the Kobasi match, it was his 2 matches with Nigel and Morishima during his farewell tour in ROH.

 

The only similarities between Joe and Taz, is they both wear/wore towels to the ring. Taz was twice the character, and was more of a convincing badass than Joe. People weren't slapping him around and calling him a fat piece of shit, if they said anything in that range, Taz would annihilate them. Because that is what a badass does. Taz could also cut awesome promo’s that made you believe he was a badass; the guy was full of charisma and played his part perfectly. Joe is nowhere in the league Taz was. What Joe is today, is what Benoit was his whole career a guy the fans love, and who should be stuck around the upper midcard, and dominate people on the lower midcard. He should be the guy that destroys guys on his course to the title, but constantly loses the title match after a hard fought encounter. He should essentially be used as a less talented, less fascinating, and less charismatic version of Benoit. The fans care for him, let them love him, and give him some big feuds every now and then, but he ought to just be used to get over the stars. When the moment comes to turn him heel, give him a talking head and let him turn in to a hired gun type character, or an enforcer of a stable. He has no personality, so book him in a way, where he doesn't really have to show any. But never bank on him to be 'the top guy", that you’re prepared to bet millions on, he just doesn't have it. The guy is good; I've been a little too hard on him. What I'm basically saying is the guy is built for the midcard; he is not a name to build a company around.

[cabbageboy 0]

Oh now we're talking. I 100% agree that Taz was booked vastly better than Joe. You really believed that he wanted to kill everyone that got in his path, beat them down, etc. Where TNA needs to improve is in the area of characters. Who is this guy, what would he do in a situation, etc.

[Jingus 0]

I really don't think Joe has a better match than Eddie/Joe from Judgment Day, or a better match than JBL/Mysterio Judgment Day 2006, also his matches with Booker T and Benoit were better than anything Joe has done.

Well then, I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, because I think Joe's best stuff easily smokes all of that.

 

than you turn around and watch Joe/Misawa, and it is just horrible, and even the commentators started laughing at Joe's performance, he was exposed.

Joe certainly didn't carry that match, but I wouldn't put all the blame on him. Misawa was so broken-down and immobile that he didn't do a damn thing in there, he mostly just threw a few elbows and then sat around in rest holds for half the match.

 

The only similarities between Joe and Taz, is they both wear/wore towels to the ring.

Actually, there are several similarities, and I've used the Taz comparison to explain Joe's appeal to some of my friends who don't watch much wrestling now and despise all things ROH-like. Both are made out to be faux shootfighters with a bunch of moves borrowed from MMA. Both also incorporated a lot of Japanese offense which wasn't as common on the American scene. Both were portrayed as badass monsters despite being relatively smaller guys. Both had decidedly non-WWE physiques. Both did a little bit of questionable no-selling at times. Both had no-nonsense straight wrestler gimmicks. Both were vaguely ethnic in a way where you weren't sure where they were from unless you were told. Both tend to have their best matches with small guys they could toss around. Both used a rear choke as their finish. It's not like the two guys are night and day.

 

Taz was twice the character, and was more of a convincing badass than Joe. People weren't slapping him around and calling him a fat piece of shit, if they said anything in that range, Taz would annihilate them. Because that is what a badass does.

Which is entirely the fault of the bookers, not the wrestlers. Obviously, Heyman > Russo.

 

less charismatic version of Benoit.

Such a thing is possible? I just don't see your "Joe has no personality or charisma" argument at all. He's not a great promo guy and could use a manager, but in the ring he's fine.

[The Niggardly King 0]

I do sort of blame Joe for the Misawa match. He came in like it was an average ROH match, threw out his usual Fire Pro offense, ripped off a lot of taunts and moves from other Japanese wrestlers and was laughed at like he was some joke.

[The Truthiness 0]

 

Actually, there are several similarities,

 

Yeah, they both like Orange/Black wrestling gear also.

 

 

Which is entirely the fault of the bookers, not the wrestlers. Obviously, Heyman > Russo.

Yeah Heyman helped bring it out, but the excution was all Taz. Joe worked for this era's Heyman, in Gabe, but Joe has never convinced he was a bad ass even in ROH. You can blame Russo for being a bad booker, but you can't blame him for Joe not having a personality, this has always been a problem for Joe.

 

 

Taz cutting awesome promo's has nothing to do with bookers. Taz making me believe he'll break a guys neck, had nothing to do with Heyman. Taz calling out Sabu, after choking guys out for 1 1/2 years, might have been Heyman's idea but he wasn't the one out there making me hope Sabu would answer. When Taz stood across the ring looking at his opponent like he was about kill him, he made me believe he might do just that, not Heyman.

 

Such a thing is possible? I just don't see your "Joe has no personality or charisma" argument at all. He's not a great promo guy and could use a manager, but in the ring he's fine.

Yeah, Joe is living proof that it's possible. Seriously, if you're saying Benoit didn't have charisma, that's just blatantly wrong.

 

In the ring yeah, Joe is fine, if by fine you mean he's passable.

 

 

 

[The Truthiness 0]

I do sort of blame Joe for the Misawa match. He came in like it was an average ROH match, threw out his usual Fire Pro offense, ripped off a lot of taunts and moves from other Japanese wrestlers and was laughed at like he was some joke.

 

That last elbow Misawa gave Joe to the back of the head was very symbolic, it was like a mercy killing of that match for the audience.

 

 

[RedJed 0]

Wow, now Taz was all his own character and Heyman had nothing to do with it. Yeah, that WWE run he did was sure fucking badass alright...

 

Did you ever think that Heyman might actually have a hand in the promos back in ECW? Oh wait, that just couldnt be possible could it? Heyman BOOKED the Taz/Sabu feud build so you would get that reaction when the confrontation between them finally happened. I wouldn't think this would have to be explained to someone that shit like that is part of just simply put, good writing. Strong character development in particularly. Sure, Taz fit that "mold" for the character, but as we saw in WWE, it doesn't take much to really make that "mold" borderline pathetic in execution, compared to the ECW version.

 

Theres too many things to even start nitpicking in this thread on absurdities in someone not understanding the business in so many ways, so I will digress for now.

 

And yes, Benoit had little to no charisma. His popularity was primarily based on a rugged, polished, and stiff style he worked in the ring.

[ANKLELOCK 0]

JBL>>>>>>>Joe, by the way.

 

 

Joe has never had a match as good as the Eddie J-day match, though he has had some good ones. But Bradshaw is just soooo much better at character stuff. Not just promos(thats a given), but his the stuff he does during a match.

 

JBL's offense is ten times better and much more badass than Joe's, and Joe is the one thats supposed to be the badass. I'd rather watch JBL punch and clothesline the shit outta some dude than watch Joe doe a bunch of planchas and spinkicks when he's 290 pounds.

 

And saying that a guy's gimmick being manifested in his in-ring work doesn't matter just screams "its 1997 and I just got my smark card".

[luke-o 0]

Such a thing is possible? I just don't see your "Joe has no personality or charisma" argument at all. He's not a great promo guy and could use a manager, but in the ring he's fine.

Yeah, Joe is living proof that it's possible. Seriously, if you're saying Benoit didn't have charisma, that's just blatantly wrong.

 

That made me choke on my cereal.

[Old School 0]

I have only seen one or two JBL matches that I even thought were good, let alone great. Joe's entire ROH run was good and filled with several great matches. I do agree that Samoa Joe comes off as a very laughable and unrelatable character though. Also, Taz was booked better than Joe? Does that have anything to do with Heyman being better than Russo? Joe was booked great in ROH...

 

Benoit definitely had charisma, it just wasn't with a microphone. His charisma was about his presence in the ring. I think a lot of people get confused and automatically assume that charisma equates to great promos.

 

I won't say that Joe could never be a top guy...because with good booking, I think almost anyone can be a top guy. Now, I don't think it can happen with Russo writing a weekly comedy sketch show.

[cabbageboy 0]

Over the past 4 years I've been baffled at the amount of love JBL gets on this forum. He's a pretty interesting character but his redneck poor man's Ted DiBiase should be kept in the midcard as a US title level heel. The praised Eddie/JBL match from Judgment Day 04 was mostly Eddie carrying him and doing a massive blade job. The only other good match I've ever seen with JBL was the I Quit vs. Cena. JBL can be enjoyable in a violent brawl, but he's mostly useless in a standard wrestling match. How many times have we seen JBL stink up a building in a main event level match?

 

Joe is a vastly better worker than JBL when it comes to a regular match. I mean has JBL ever had as awesome a match as the Dec. 2005 match vs. Styles?

[The Truthiness 0]

Wow, now Taz was all his own character and Heyman had nothing to do with it. Yeah, that WWE run he did was sure fucking badass alright...

 

 

Didn't say Heyman didn't have anything to do with it, not one time. I'm saying Taz pulled it off, Joe was booked the same way by Gabe and it still wasn't as believable as Taz.

 

 

Did you ever think that Heyman might actually have a hand in the promos back in ECW? Oh wait, that just couldnt be possible could it? Heyman BOOKED the Taz/Sabu feud build so you would get that reaction when the confrontation between them finally happened. I wouldn't think this would have to be explained to someone that shit like that is part of just simply put, good writing. Strong character development in particularly. Sure, Taz fit that "mold" for the character, but as we saw in WWE, it doesn't take much to really make that "mold" borderline pathetic in execution, compared to the ECW version.

 

Heyman ad Taz have both said, that Taz never wanted to talk, but Heyman seen he'd be a great promo guy, and Heyman was right. So yeah, Heyman did help him out, but Heyman didn't cut the promo's, that was all Taz, he made the character believeable. Justin Creible was booked good, but nobody brought in to him, because he sucked. A booker can only help structur a gimmick, he can't make the fans buy in to the character

, if the character can't pull it off.

 

Theres too many things to even start nitpicking in this thread on absurdities in someone not understanding the business in so many ways, so I will digress for now.

Tell me about it.

 

And yes, Benoit had little to no charisma. His popularity was primarily based on a rugged, polished, and stiff style he worked in the ring.

Fans crying in MSG, because you finally win the championship, doesn't happen without charisma. People chanting your name all over the world, no matter who your in the ring with, doesn't happen without charisma. Being one of the most over characters face or heel for over 10 years, in the 2 biggest wrestling companies ever, doesn't happen without charisma. The guy is a piece of shit, but he had charisma.

[cd213 0]

As someone that has been a fan of TNA since the first weekly PPV, I have to say that I really don't like the Main Event scene right now. Joe is boring me, I don't care when Nash is wrestling (he actually did a good job with the X-Division with Shelly). Angle was getting stalen and I'm interested in his feud with AJ. Infusing the scene with Roode, Tomko, James Storm, and even Booker and Rhino is making me more interested. Keep Angle, Nash, Christian and Sting far away right now.