Let's Talk About...

[King Kamala 0]

Well, it's that time again. This week's edition, we'll talk about the shining moment in the career of a highly divisive figure in the IWC...the 14 month Intercontinental title reign of The Honky Tonk Man.

 

Now I've always had a soft spot for The Honky Tonk Man. Maybe it's the fact that he was on the first wrestling tape I ever watched (Hulkamania 4) and the gimmick of an in-denial Elvis impersonator appealed to me. Maybe it's because his shoot interviews are so wildly entertaining (despite or maybe because of the blatant amounts of BS in them). So obviously, I enjoyed his IC title run. Now I wouldn't call him the greatest of all time. Hell, I'm not sure if I'd put him in my Top 5 but I'm not sure if there was ever more interest in the title than when he had it. Now many might argue that the success of his run is attributable to his opponents and it is a compelling argument. "Macho Man" Randy Savage, Brutus Beefcake and Jake Roberts were all at or near their peaks popularity wise. However, a babyface is only as good as the heel he's facing and HTM was a masterful bad guy. There aren't many more guys who can rile up fans as much by doing as little as HTM. He was as blatantly unlikeable as a guy like Ricky Steamboat was likeable.

 

Somehow I think that character has blurred over into HTM's semi-retirement. Listening to his shoot interviews, he's clearly bought into the Greatest Intercontinental Champ of All Time hype, which seemed initially to be a claim he used to drum up heel heat. I find it somewhat amusing that some of the marks of yesteryear have grown into the grizzled, somewhat wisened smart marks of today and have hated Honky Tonk Man all the while for virtually the same reason.

 

So what are your thoughts on "The Greatest Intercontinental Champion of All Time"? Was he one of the great heels of his time? Or did he merely just buy into his own hype?

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

One time I let him sleep on my couch. It was awesome.

 

As for HTM, the gimmick is much better than the product. I can't think of any reason to call him the "Greatest IC champ" other than the fact that he held it the longest. The matches sucked and the gimmick was just average. He played the role of insufferable heel champion really well and the payoff with the Warrior was great, but I wasn't really into his reign.

 

I still think that he should have dropped the belt to Savage at Wrestlemania IV. That whole thing has never really been settled in the IWC, but I guess popular opinion is that he refused the job and Vince bought into it. Seems sketchy to me.

 

The fact that his entire legacy is built on that reign speaks volumes. He didn't accomplish anything afterwards. Had there been some talent he could have parlayed that into another run somewhere. He was all gimmick and no substance.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

It severely pisses me off that he feels fit to criticize Bret Hart for not dropping the WWF Championship to Shawn Michaels (even though Hart was willing to drop it to other performers) when Honky flat out refused to drop the Intercontinental Title to Randy Savage. It fucking irks me to no end. He didn't have much of a case not to. I have heard the excuse that "promoters in their time could just let their talents go like that. So fucking what? Does that mean that everybody else on the roster should refuse to lose their matches?

 

Even worse he acts as though he was working in Savage's best interests when he refused to lose. Honky talked about how Savage can't complain because he was given the WWF Championship to pacify him. Really? HTM wants to take credit for that shit just because he didn't want to drop the IC Title?

 

Watch his shoot. He thought that he was brought in to WCW to work on top with Hulk Hogan. What a delusional douchebag.

 

That said, he does have at least a few good points concerning the wrestling business, but he thinks that he is more valuable than he really is.

[cabbageboy 0]

Honky's IC title run was something that can't be duplicated now since there's no way fans would stand for a man constantly getting himself DQed or counted out on every show. What drew money back then would be almost business killing now.

 

While I'll admit that this angle worked and drew money back then, that doesn't mean I have to enjoy it. This sort of angle is better used with a nothing belt, something like the WCW TV title when Regal had it and did nothing but time limit draws. It served a purpose, but allowed more relevant titles to stay feasible.

 

As far as Savage goes, Honky was wrong to not want to job to him but the end result was better. Savage was well past being IC champ by 1988 and was ready for the world title.

[The Truthiness 0]

Honky Tonk Man was an awesome heel and had an awesome run. I would put him up there as one of the best heels ever. I absolutely hated him, because he would find a way to keep that damn title, by any means necessary. Him and the Colonel was such fucking douche bags, I could not fucking stand them. Once Warrior beat him, I laughed my ass off, but the belt was never the same after he lost it...

 

I think Meltzer once said, that HTM was a huge draw when WWE use to run 2 cities a day.

 

Hogan was on top of one card and HTM on top of the other, HTM would some times outdraw him.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

Is it true that he and Lawler don't get along? I don't remember where I heard that, but the only memory I have of either of them mentioning the other was RR2001, during which Lawler marked out big time.

 

Arguably, one of the top five heels ever.

[The Truthiness 0]

Him and Lawler are cousins, I think he feels (like many), Lawler fucked him in some of his Memphis payoffs.

[Diamonddust 0]

It severely pisses me off that he feels fit to criticize Bret Hart for not dropping the WWF Championship to Shawn Michaels (even though Hart was willing to drop it to other performers) when Honky flat out refused to drop the Intercontinental Title to Randy Savage. It fucking irks me to no end. He didn't have much of a case not to. I have heard the excuse that "promoters in their time could just let their talents go like that. So fucking what? Does that mean that everybody else on the roster should refuse to lose their matches?

 

Even worse he acts as though he was working in Savage's best interests when he refused to lose. Honky talked about how Savage can't complain because he was given the WWF Championship to pacify him. Really? HTM wants to take credit for that shit just because he didn't want to drop the IC Title?

 

Watch his shoot. He thought that he was brought in to WCW to work on top with Hulk Hogan. What a delusional douchebag.

 

That said, he does have at least a few good points concerning the wrestling business, but he thinks that he is more valuable than he really is.

 

In defense of Honky or at least playing devil's advocate, his concern was that he wasn't just dropping the belt to Savage... he was going to do it in front of 30 million people on national television. His market value would have dropped off considerably (especially since he was drawing major money during the time they were running two house shows and the IC champion headlined the B show) since they were supposedly going to repackage him back down to the bottom of the card.

 

Not saying it's the best excuse around, but losing the title on what was the most watched wrestling program in history as opposed to losing it at a house show or even a PPV was vastly different at the time.

 

As for the character itself, it was great. A natural heat magnet, and Ferris mined it for all it was worth. He made no attempt to make HTM a likable character, and that is the sign of a great heel.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

It was a nice run, but he wasn't the greatest IC Champion ever. Even from the same era, the title run Randy Savage had from 1986 to 1987 was more impressive. As good as Honky was in the role and as big a moment it was when he finally lost, his run really had run out of steam somewhat a few months earlier.

[blue2 0]

From a match standpoint, it was not that good. From a perspective of building heat, it was. I think he should have dropped the IC title. A Dibiase heel run could been awesome. Plus a Steamboat run could have been great with Dibiase on top.

[Mos_Def 0]

WWF lost credibility with him as champ for so long --- he was bad and the fans knew it. Fans were literally begging for him to lose every night. Apter mags used to ridicule Vince over HTM. Fans legitimately hated him and that fact that, as previously mentioned, he never came anywhere near that level again is testament to how much he sucked.

 

HTM was a two-month joke that severly overstayed its welcome. As a person? Way too much of a mark for himself and its not warranted.

 

He's a funny, entertaining guy at times, but he is also pretty mean spirited. Almost the exact stereotype of a living old school wrestler.

[Mos_Def 0]

Honky Tonk Man was an awesome heel and had an awesome run. I would put him up there as one of the best heels ever. I absolutely hated him, because he would find a way to keep that damn title, by any means necessary. Him and the Colonel was such fucking douche bags, I could not fucking stand them. Once Warrior beat him, I laughed my ass off, but the belt was never the same after he lost it...

 

I think Meltzer once said, that HTM was a huge draw when WWE use to run 2 cities a day.

 

Hogan was on top of one card and HTM on top of the other, HTM would some times outdraw him.

 

I think the fact that the fans rejected him from jump deminishes the thought that he was this major talent. Hulk Hogan endorsed his ass for fucks sake and the fans were booing him out of the building. Hogan could have told fans to smear dog shit out their faces and they would have obeyed.

 

 

[The Truthiness 0]

Honky Tonk Man was an awesome heel and had an awesome run. I would put him up there as one of the best heels ever. I absolutely hated him, because he would find a way to keep that damn title, by any means necessary. Him and the Colonel was such fucking douche bags, I could not fucking stand them. Once Warrior beat him, I laughed my ass off, but the belt was never the same after he lost it...

 

I think Meltzer once said, that HTM was a huge draw when WWE use to run 2 cities a day.

 

Hogan was on top of one card and HTM on top of the other, HTM would some times outdraw him.

 

I think the fact that the fans rejected him from jump deminishes the thought that he was this major talent. Hulk Hogan endorsed his ass for fucks sake and the fans were booing him out of the building. Hogan could have told fans to smear dog shit out their faces and they would have obeyed.

 

 

 

Because he was a heel, they should've never made an Elvis imposter a face to begin with. To say, HTM wasn't a good IC Champ, is just dumb, he drew more money then any other guy that held title, and when he lost the damn thing, it meant something. I don't think he is the best IC Champ, but he damn sure was one of the best.

 

 

I have no problem with him calling himself saying he was the greatest of all time.

[King Kamala 0]

I can see both sides of the argument. I don't think anybody would call HTM a great worker or even a a decent one. But he could bump fairly well and he was good to great on the stick. It was a one-note gimmick, which is probably why he was relegated to curtain jerking after losing the title but he played that one note very well for a period of time.

[JJMc 0]

Agreed that he was one trick pony, but that was all he needed. He was given an opportunity and he made the most of it. He didn't want to do the Savage job because he knew it meant the end of his money making run. He said that he did the Warrior job because they approached him and asked him how he wanted to do it and he appreciated that.

 

I could watch his shoots all day. The Face Off one with him and Raven is awesome.

[Mos_Def 0]

Honky Tonk Man was an awesome heel and had an awesome run. I would put him up there as one of the best heels ever. I absolutely hated him, because he would find a way to keep that damn title, by any means necessary. Him and the Colonel was such fucking douche bags, I could not fucking stand them. Once Warrior beat him, I laughed my ass off, but the belt was never the same after he lost it...

 

I think Meltzer once said, that HTM was a huge draw when WWE use to run 2 cities a day.

 

Hogan was on top of one card and HTM on top of the other, HTM would some times outdraw him.

 

I think the fact that the fans rejected him from jump deminishes the thought that he was this major talent. Hulk Hogan endorsed his ass for fucks sake and the fans were booing him out of the building. Hogan could have told fans to smear dog shit out their faces and they would have obeyed.

 

 

 

Because he was a heel, they should've never made an Elvis imposter a face to begin with. To say, HTM wasn't a good IC Champ, is just dumb, he drew more money then any other guy that held title, and when he lost the damn thing, it meant something. I don't think he is the best IC Champ, but he damn sure was one of the best.

 

 

I have no problem with him calling himself saying he was the greatest of all time.

 

When they initially tried pushing him as a face, smart guy, they werent angling him as an Elvis impersonator and a strong case can be made that the fans rejected him because of his lack of talent.

[The Truthiness 0]

Honky Tonk Man was an awesome heel and had an awesome run. I would put him up there as one of the best heels ever. I absolutely hated him, because he would find a way to keep that damn title, by any means necessary. Him and the Colonel was such fucking douche bags, I could not fucking stand them. Once Warrior beat him, I laughed my ass off, but the belt was never the same after he lost it...

 

I think Meltzer once said, that HTM was a huge draw when WWE use to run 2 cities a day.

 

Hogan was on top of one card and HTM on top of the other, HTM would some times outdraw him.

 

I think the fact that the fans rejected him from jump deminishes the thought that he was this major talent. Hulk Hogan endorsed his ass for fucks sake and the fans were booing him out of the building. Hogan could have told fans to smear dog shit out their faces and they would have obeyed.

 

 

 

Because he was a heel, they should've never made an Elvis imposter a face to begin with. To say, HTM wasn't a good IC Champ, is just dumb, he drew more money then any other guy that held title, and when he lost the damn thing, it meant something. I don't think he is the best IC Champ, but he damn sure was one of the best.

 

 

I have no problem with him calling himself saying he was the greatest of all time.

 

When they initially tried pushing him as a face, smart guy, they werent angling him as an Elvis impersonator and a strong case can be made that the fans rejected him because of his lack of talent.

 

I remember him being a face, but he still had the Elvis impersonator thing going. If he did something before that, I don't know about it or care. I know as IC Champ he did great business and was an awesome heel. You not liking him will not change that "smart guy". The gimmick did very well, and to this day I don't think anybody else could've pulled it off as good. WWE tried with Double J it didn't work, WCW tried with Disco, Johnny B. Bad, and PN News, none of them worked

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

WWE tried with Double J it didn't work, WCW tried with Disco, Johnny B. Bad, and PN News, none of them worked

 

I could see it with Disco and Johnny B. Badd. But I don't think anybody has drawn a comparison between HTM and Jarrett or PN News.

[The Truthiness 0]

I'm just talking about trying to get wrestlers over with cheap music gimmicks.

 

 

[Mike wanna be 0]

It severely pisses me off that he feels fit to criticize Bret Hart for not dropping the WWF Championship to Shawn Michaels (even though Hart was willing to drop it to other performers) when Honky flat out refused to drop the Intercontinental Title to Randy Savage. It fucking irks me to no end. He didn't have much of a case not to. I have heard the excuse that "promoters in their time could just let their talents go like that. So fucking what? Does that mean that everybody else on the roster should refuse to lose their matches?

Bret Hart is still somebody without the WWF title, though.

 

Honestly, does anybody give a shit about HTM if he drops the IC gold to Savage and (as the alleged plan was, so I keep reading) DiBiase wins the WM IV title tournament for the WWF gold?

 

The WWF felt confident enough in his heat-drawing capabilities to send him and half the roster to wrestle in a city without Hulk Hogan on the card. One of the top-drawing WWF champions in history, and they let the IC champ headline a card in a different city and as stated above, said IC champion occasionally outdrew Hogan. That's got to bolster his legacy as greatest IC champ of all time; who else in that time period could have done that? Steamboat? Savage? Roberts? Beefcake? Maybe Andre if he lowered himself to IC title level?

[Zack Malibu 0]

Johnny B. Badd was actually pretty over, even in the early days of the gimmick with the Little Richard aspect. It's mentioned a lot in some of the older Observers posted to the site for members only. I'll give you that his overness increased greatly when he became a more "serious" worker and dropped the gimmick, but he was almost consistently over from day one. Disco was a niche that stayed long past its welcome, and typecast him as a gimmick jobber for life (noteworthy here is how it backfired when he was presented as a serious title contender in TNA's early days).

[Timmy8271 0]

I can see both sides of the argument. I don't think anybody would call HTM a great worker or even a a decent one. But he could bump fairly well and he was good to great on the stick. It was a one-note gimmick, which is probably why he was relegated to curtain jerking after losing the title but he played that one note very well for a period of time.

 

I'd call him a decent work, especially in Memphis and when he first did the Honky Tonk man gimmick in Vancouver. He's not the best worker but he got a good match out of Brutis Beefcake at wrestlemania and I liked the feud with Jake Roberts.

[CBright7831 0]

His shoots on other wrestlers are hilarious:

 

HTM on Dynamite Kid:

 

 

HTM on Jake Roberts (and the guitar shot):

 

 

HTM on Dusty Rhodes:

 

 

HTM (w/ Greg Valentine) on The Hart Foundation

 

[cabbageboy 0]

Slightly off topic but relating to WM IV...why on earth was the initial plan DiBiase winning the title? Can anyone explain to me how it would be good booking at all to have a heel win the finals of a tourney on the longest friggin PPV ever? The whole point of DiBiase trying to buy the belt from Hogan and all of his antics was that he likely couldn't beat Hogan or Savage in a match for the title.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

Slightly off topic but relating to WM IV...why on earth was the initial plan DiBiase winning the title? Can anyone explain to me how it would be good booking at all to have a heel win the finals of a tourney on the longest friggin PPV ever? The whole point of DiBiase trying to buy the belt from Hogan and all of his antics was that he likely couldn't beat Hogan or Savage in a match for the title.

 

Funny thing, I never thought of that, and it's made me do a complete 180 in the five minutes it took me to read this thread. Dibiase would have been fantastic as a heel champ had he not had Andre buy the belt two months prior.

 

And shit, just imagine if HTM had dropped the belt to Savage - what gets the Warrior over? I'm sure he would have, in the end, but is he viewed as a legitimate challenger to Hogan 18 months later if not? I wonder what prompted that, for HTM to lie down to a guy as generally disliked backstage as Warrior.

[King Kamala 0]

Let's see some clips of The Honker in action

 

Where It All Began (Honky Tonk Man wins the title from Ricky Steamboat 6-13-87)

Honky Tonk Man Vs Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat (MSG 8-22-87)

Honky Tonk Man Vs Bruno Sammartino (Philadelphia Spectrum 7-18-87) This had to be one of Bruno's last matches. IIRC, he was replacing Jake Roberts at the last minute.

Honky Tonk Man Vs "Macho Man" Randy Savage (Saturday Night Main Event 10-3-87)

Honky Tonk Man Vs "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan (WrestleFest 7-31-88)

Honky Tonk Man Vs The Ultimate Warrior (SummerSlam '88)

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Wow, I laughed when Vince said "And an undeserved title opportunity in my book...I don't think he deserves it."