More Middle East turmoil

[The Niggardly King 0]

I wonder what crisis happens in a few weeks that Colin Powell warned about...

[SuperJerk 0]

[2GOLD 0]

 

Colin Powell could not have expressed how dangerous it would be when the bandwidth was exceeded.

 

 

This whole situation is such a fucking mess. Hamas launches rockets, knowing the Israeli government would launch back and kill civilians. Israel instead of just backing off and realizing all they should be doing is defensive stuff, goes on full scale attack which makes them out to be war hunger nuts. Hamas gets stronger in the eyes of an Arab world that already hates Israel. And the whole world turns violently on Israel, as well they probably should since their decision to go in only causes more innocent lives to fall.

 

To this day, I really don't know what the fuck Israel is supposed to do. They aren't going to eliminate Hamas no matter what they try and every time they respond to a Hamas attack (which it seems some in the Arab world will ALWAYS feel is justified) they just lose support.

[Brett Favre 0]

I can't feel bad for Israel in their "tough" situation when you have the US backing you up and the idea of going into Palestine and taking control, was a bad idea to begin with.

[EricMM 0]

But what on earth else is Israel supposed to do?

 

You can't just allow your people to be fired upon!

[Guest]

You only need to look at the charter for Hamas. I picked out the parts I found important.

 

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

 

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

 

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

 

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

 

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

 

Ami Isseroff

 

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

 

Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:

 

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

 

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

 

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.

 

All that needs to be said. They do not allow for peace. So something must be done.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Israel has been violating international law 242 and 338 for over 40 years... there's an understanding to why Hamas is reacting the way they are. It's a complicated mess up.

 

Now before this current incident going, where Hamas fires rockets futilely at Israel... why haven't there been reports in the past when Israel bombs Gaza at will... repeatedly violating the truce and Hamas tries to retaliate against that and all of a sudden it's Israel retaliating against Hamas rocket attacks. This siege has been breaking the back of the Palestinian people and they try to fight back in any futile way they can.

 

The only way it could work is to break up the siege, but that won't happen. Maybe if there was a respect for international law it would happen... yeah right.

[Guest]

UN Resolution 242 is a pile of shit.

 

Arabs attack, Israel smashes them, takes the land, and then they're supposed to give it back. Right...

 

In addition, the resolution does not state how much of the land should be given back. It is not specific. The parties were supposed to discuss how much land would be given back, and they have talked about it. Israel has talked with Syria in the past about returning some of the Golan Heights. You can also read about the Israel-Jordan peace treaty in which Jordan rescinded their claim to the West Bank.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I have no problem admitting when I'm confused about something.

 

And goddamn I am confused about this. Can somebody use, like, hand puppets or something for me to break this shit down?

[The Niggardly King 0]

Arabs attack, Israel smashes them, takes the land, and then they're supposed to give it back. Right...

 

Is that how it exactly went down from November 1947 to May 1948?

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Israel has conceded plenty of land in the past. You can't expect them to cut their own throats to appease the UN and the Palestinians. Really, there are over 20 Arab countries in the world, and it's like some can't concede that the Jews should have just one homeland of their own.

 

I don't know...I just think it's silly that this scenario with Hamas has repeated itself over and over for the past however many years. I think Israel should just ignore the international community, finish them off as quickly as possible, and be done with it.

[Guest]

Is that how it exactly went down from November 1947 to May 1948?

 

During the Civil War? I don't quite follow where you're headed.

 

How about the Jews who were forced to leave their homes elsewhere in the Arab world between 1948 and the Six Day War? Where's the outcry for them? Up to about 900,000 Jews forced to leave their homes because of Anti-Semitism.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Is that how it exactly went down from November 1947 to May 1948?

 

During the Civil War? I don't quite follow where you're headed.

 

How about the Jews who were forced to leave their homes elsewhere in the Arab world between 1948 and the Six Day War? Where's the outcry for them? Up to about 900,000 Jews forced to leave their homes because of Anti-Semitism.

 

Well, Jews have been forced from their homes in various parts of the world for a good millennium plus, so I don't know how bringing that up helps. I just don't get what the international community really wants Israel to do otherwise. Just live with the constant terrorism, or should they take Ahmadenijad's solution and all move to Alaska? The UN set up Israel, so they should accept the reality they're faced with now, and allow Israel to end the violence like they need to.

[Mike wanna be 0]

Israel has conceded plenty of land in the past. You can't expect them to cut their own throats to appease the UN and the Palestinians. Really, there are over 20 Arab countries in the world, and it's like some can't concede that the Jews should have just one homeland of their own.

 

I don't know...I just think it's silly that this scenario with Hamas has repeated itself over and over for the past however many years. I think Israel should just ignore the international community, finish them off as quickly as possible, and be done with it.

I always thought that it wasn't the fact that the Jews have a country, it's the location of the country that bothered them.

In any event, the international community just needs to let them go at it.

[PUT THAT DICK IN MY MOUTH! 0]

All that needs to be said. They do not allow for peace. So something must be done.

 

No shit something has to be done. One problem: leaving aside the moral component, the "something" they're trying right now (eg bombing the shit out of Palestinian/Arab territory) doesn't fucking work. It didn't work against Hezbollah in 2006 and it's not going to work now. All it's going to do is kill a bunch of civilians, make living conditions in Gaza even worse, and put a reasonable/peaceful solution to this mess even further out of reach.

 

As for what Israel should do, allowing Palestinians basic political rights and letting them out of their glorified prison camp would probably be a good first step.

[The Niggardly King 0]

Is that how it exactly went down from November 1947 to May 1948?

 

During the Civil War? I don't quite follow where you're headed.

 

How about the Jews who were forced to leave their homes elsewhere in the Arab world between 1948 and the Six Day War? Where's the outcry for them? Up to about 900,000 Jews forced to leave their homes because of Anti-Semitism.

 

From that period they were already on the offensive and already attacked Arabs. In the months before Israel was declared, 300,000 Arabs were driven off land and more land was seized beyond the proposed Israel.

 

The times between 1948 and the Six Day War were also a horrific event, but not exactly what it seems to be. Like I said, the whole thing is a complicated shit mess of misinformation, like most things.

[The Niggardly King 0]

I always thought that it wasn't the fact that the Jews have a country, it's the location of the country that bothered them.

 

Probably because of how integral the land is. The Dead Sea waters by evaporation can produce trillions worth of minerals and powdered metals, the sub-soil of Palestine contains 20 times more petroleum than all the combined reserves of the two Americas, and the fact it is at the crossroads of Africa, Asia, and Europe.

 

[Brett Favre 0]

As for what Israel should do, allowing Palestinians basic political rights and letting them out of their glorified prison camp would probably be a good first step.

 

+1.

 

I have no problem admitting when I'm confused about something.

 

And goddamn I am confused about this. Can somebody use, like, hand puppets or something for me to break this shit down?

 

[Guest Czecherbear]

I thought Israel admitted that bombing Lebanon did no good for anybody, so it's disappointing to see them bomb Gaza so heavily. Then again, I don't know what else they're supposed to do here. Hard to be sympathetic to Palestinian Arabs these days.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

I feel worst for the Palestinians who didn't vote for Hamas. Like, I would have been pissed if McCain had won our election, but ouch.

 

The whole thing's a mess and I have no sympathy for Hamas, but as Czech and Byron have pointed out, this form of retaliation is going to be completely ineffective unless you actually want every person in Gaza dead, which is a pretty awful solution grounded almost completely in rather bankrupt nationalism.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

So the visual aide helps.....but how the fuck did this takeover occur? I doubt the Palestinians just stepped back and allowed the Jews to come through.

[EricMM 0]

When Israel opens up the boarders to Palestinians, suicide bombings increase. And they are so much worse for the Israelis than the rockets are.

 

I can't believe people here are demanding more open boarders in the area when that has always led to more loss of life in the past.

 

These people proclaim the death of Israel as a political goal. Why should the Israelis try to appease them?

[snuffbox 0]

While Jesus eats his popcorn upon a yonder cloud.

[PUT THAT DICK IN MY MOUTH! 0]

I feel worst for the Palestinians who didn't vote for Hamas. Like, I would have been pissed if McCain had won our election, but ouch.

 

The best part about that election is that the reason Hamas was able to win is that Israel did just about everything they could to undermine and weaken Fatah because they thought a more "moderate" group would rise up and take power. Whoops.

 

So the visual aide helps.....but how the fuck did this takeover occur? I doubt the Palestinians just stepped back and allowed the Jews to come through.

 

Israelis had F-16s and American bombs, Palestinians had rocks and Kalashnikovs and fertilizer bombs.

 

 

These people proclaim the death of Israel as a political goal. Why should the Israelis try to appease them?

 

You're right, oppressive colonialist rule is definitely the more tenable long-term solution. If they keep it up long enough all the Palestinians will probably die of starvation and malnourishment and water-borne disease. Then peace will truly reign.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Continuing with my series of queries: Why am I seeing such a huge turnout for Hamas supporters at the rallies here in Toronto when it's recognized by a number of Governments worldwide as a terrorist sect?

[BUTT 0]

Haha, Byron the Bulb is fixin' to join the PLO.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I pretty much agree with Byron, Czech, & Edwin here--the situation the Israelis are in with the rocket attacks sucks, but this response is probably going to make things worse. I would be glad to eat crow, but all I see coming out of this is more suffering for Palestinian civilians and either an empowered Hamas or a turn in Gaza toward even more radical groups.

[Guest]

I feel bad for civilians. Really bad for them. Especially when they're run by a group who is not competent enough to have a parade...

 

(Pretty graphic, I couldn't even finish the video. Don't watch unless you want to see Hamas accidentally kill Palestinian kids)

 

 

Can't open the border either because of the suicide bombing problem. Once the border was closed and the tunnels were disposed of, they haven't had problems with suicide bombers. So what do you do? I think they are doing the best they can do. They can't just sit by while Hamas shoots rockets at their cities. Compound that with the problems Hamas and Fatah have with killing one another, and well, Gaza seems unable to be controlled.

 

You're right, oppressive colonialist rule is definitely the more tenable long-term solution. If they keep it up long enough all the Palestinians will probably die of starvation and malnourishment and water-borne disease. Then peace will truly reign.

And what would your suggestion be? Negotiate with a group whose charter explicitly states that they will not accept peace or anything less than Jihad against Israel?

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

I should also note that I have no idea how you really truly solve this conflict short of one side annihilating the other, but I guess that makes me no different from the tens of millions of other people who've tried to figure it out, too.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

While Jesus eats his popcorn upon a yonder cloud.

 

I know you're being your usual snarky Christian hating self here, but what the hell was the point of this comment?