WrestleMania Roundtable Part Four:2000 to 2004

[King Kamala 0]

Alright, it's time for Part Four of our six part series chronicling the history of WrestleMania. This week, we had our longest roundtable yet but before we get started...let's introduce the team of experts.

 

Smues: TSM's favorite Alaskan.

 

King Kamala Classic: The guy posting this thread.

 

909: Runner up for '07 TSM Poster of the Year

 

Ed Wood Caulfield: Runner up for TSM's I Want To Be A WrestleMania roundtable panelist contest.

 

Hunter's Torn Quad: Our esteemed wrestling history expert.

 

Before we begin with the WrestleMania talk, we talked about Chris Benoit and whether or not, the murder/suicide affected our enjoyment of these shows.

 

 

Smues: I was thinking maybe we should talk about Benoit before we get started. Because these enter the benoit era, and people's opinions may be different solely for the psycho benoit reason.

909: I've watched like, one Benoit match since the whole thing happened.I wasn't bothered.

Hunter’s Ton Ruqad It's weird watching Benoit now but nothing major. Just strange watching a match involving someone who killed his wife and kid

Smues: That out of the way, I think I'm in the minority, but I can seperate CHRIS BENOIT the wrestler from Chris Benoit the murderer. Maybe I'm just a sick individual, but I can still watch his matches with the same enjoyment I could before it. I'm still on the edge of my seat for the IC matches with Jericho, and

Ed Wood Caulfield: haven't watched a full Benoit match since his death.

King Kamala Classic: I can watch Benoit matches and I have on occasion but I did kind of subconsciously avoid them for a while.

Smues: I still scream TAP OUT YOU FUCKING SON OF A BITCH at the screen when he's got HHH in the crossface. So for me personally it didn't affect watching these old shows. And let me say yes what he did was awful, and I'm not forgiving him for it, or getting into the argument about his state of mind here or anything. I just can seperate that, and it doesn't ruin his past works for me. If they ever showed old games with OJ Simpson, I'm sure I'd enjoy those too.

909: So if I can watch that one and not be bothered, I can watch just about anything and not be bothered. I'm a completist, and believe that WWE should get back to airing his matches on 24/7.I also believe that they never will get back to airing his matches.

King Kamala Classic:You can't just pretend he didn't exist forever. I think they'll end the nonsense eventually.

Smues: I hope so.

Hunter’s Torn Quad In time

Smues: So with all that said my opinions of WM16-20 have not been affected one bit by the Benoit killings.

King Kamala Classic: It does taint the enjoyment of the end of WrestleMania XX a tad though

Ed Wood Caulfield The ending of WrestleMania XX just isn't the same anymore.

Smues: It is for me, but I have an irrational hate of HHH.

Hunter’s Torn Quad I watched the end to XX a few days ago. A little weird but nothing serious

 

 

WrestleMania 2000

 

 

Smues: Ok WMXVI. First: everything but the main event. Take out the main and it's a fairly good/enjoyable show. The crowd was fairly hot, which helps thing. You've got two good/great matches in the undercard in the Eurocontinental match, and the ladder match. and the ladder match for all intents and purposes is TLC1, as it set the template for the future matches, and while the future ones were better, this was still great and at the time was the most HOLY SHIT moments in one match I'd ever seen. No awful matches, and the stinkers were either short (women's match) or at least heated the crowd up (Godfather's tag match.) And man Bull Buchanan, there's a guy who is easy to forget he exists. The only real complaint with the undercard (and this applies to the main as well) is that outside of the TWO minute women's match, EVERY match is more than a singles match. Tag matches, a three way, and a four way. that bugged me then and bugged me now. Otherwise though the undercard is just fine, and will make you laugh when JR hypes the XFL.

 

Now, the main event: I'm going to embarass myself here, but so be it. The one constant in the WWF before this show: the face beats the heel at Wrestlemania. Yes there's WM9, but in the end a face walked out the champ. This changed that, and in doing so it killed the mark in me for life. Sure I was still a big fan afterwards, but it was never the same. Before this show I never missed a minute of WWF TV I could watch. I had an emotional investment like that of a rabid sports fan. Yes I knew it was scripted, and I was heavy into reading the internet goings on, but I CARED about the product. Deeply. And gave them lots of my money. That all changed after this. I had already been irrationally hating HHH since the summer of 99, so it didn't help that he had to be the one. But there was just NO excuse for HHH to walk out the champ. 100 years of wrestling history says the good guy wins this. After months of the McMahon/Helmsley era polluting WWF TV this is where the Rock is supposed to take out the bad guy and everyone is happy. The match that happened at Backlash should have happened here. It also doesn't help that the match is like 40 minutes and boring. I could go on for pages about this, but I'd just be repeating myself. Fuck you HHH, you killed the mark in me.

 

 

King Kamala Classic I like this show but I can see why it's gotten such a bad rap in circles. It had the misfortune of being a pretty good show right in the center of a line of really good shows and it had kind of a lousy finish. Correct me if I'm wrong but this was the first time a heel had retained a World title at WrestleMania. Sort of left a sour taste in everybody's mouth. I think no one would have blinked twice if they had ended No Mercy or Backlash or any non-major PPV but like Smues said---the face is expected to overcome the odds at Mania, maybe it's stupid and markish but I think it holds true. That being said, the match itself is pretty good, not one of the better main events and again, doesn't really compare to some other WWF main events of the era but a solid ***-***1/2 affair. The undercard is entertaining with The Eurocontinental title and TLC 1 being the obvious highlights.While the proliferation of non-singles matches is annoying as hell, it's kind of understandable. They were trying to get every major guy on the roster a WrestleMania paycheck so I can't get too mad at it. It wasn't mentioned in the roundtable last week but I got a kick out of Pete Rose's appearances at 'Mania. Perhaps my second favorite celebrity appearance behind Uecker. Though...I'm not going to go argue for Pete getting in the WWE Hall of Fame! Yeah, fun card. Maybe one of the more underrated 'Manias but it's really hard to look past the ending.

 

Ed Wood Caulfield This isn't really one of my favourite WrestleManias. I wasn't a huge fan of it at the time, and 9 years later, I STILL am not a huge fan of it. The opening tag was lame. The only good thing about T&A vs. Headcheese was Trish's outfit (okay, Chester McCheese was kinda funny). I liked the Hardcore match at the time, but it's aged horribly. The Triangle Ladder Match was great though. I loved it then and I still love it now, but it's not the best match those three tag teams had. The Eurocontinental Match is all right. I liked Too Cool/Chyna vs. Radicalz because I was a Too Cool mark at the time and Eddie was awesome trying to get Chyna. X-Pac/Road Dogg vs. Rikishi/Kane was just an excuse to get Pete Rose on the show, but I still enjoyed his yearly appearance and the Stinkface made me laugh when I first saw it. But the main event. Ugh. What a downer. Triple H winning was most definitely NOT the way to end the show. They tried to make up for it by having Rock give Stephanie the Rock Bottom and People's Elbow, but it wasn't enough. I know it's been said before, but the Backlash match should have happened at WrestleMania 2000. Everything had been building up to The Rock getting the WWF Title back after a year, but instead we got the the second McMahon family reunion in less than a year. I was super pissed watching it live. And I was even more piss when I was unable to see Backlash a few weeks later. I didn't actually get to see the Backlash match until last year actually. The theme song was pretty catchy that year though.

 

909: The Eurocontinental match was great for two reasons. One, it had those three in it, and it was the best way to get those belts off of Angle. Two, because it elevated a belt which otherwise stayed much lower on the card.I actually have a strong dislike for this show It isn't very good. The aforementioned Eurocontinental match and the TLC match are the only two good matches here. And those are two really good matches. However, those two matches do not compare to two matches on other shows which are solely held up by two matches. The two shows which succeeded this one are so much better. There is no comparison at all. The main event sucks. It bastardizes Foley's "retirement" just one month prior. And for that? It's shit.

 

Hunter’s Torn Quad I did not like WM2000. Bossman/BUll vs. Godfather/D-Lo was below average. The Hardcore Clusterfuck would have been better with a shorter time limit, as most matches like it tend to be. T&A vs. Head Cheese was horrid. The three-way ladder match was a great stuntfest but, unlike later bouts, there was nothing at all between the big spots. Not a thing. The women's nightmare was an abortion that, thankfully, was kept short. The six-man was fine enough. The Benoit/Angle/Jericho match was acceptable but a huge disappointment considering who you had involved. Rikishi/Kane vs. DX was fine and I got a kick out of the Pete Rose cameo. The main event should have been just Rock vs. Triple H. They probably would have torn the house down. As it is, we got a far too long schmoz complete with the first ever heel win in the WM main event. As predictable as some might call it, I think the story of the WM main event should be the heroic babyface finally making it to the top of the mountain or finally vanquishing his foe. Not to mention it was just too much in the attempt to push Triple H to the top. Yes, we get it, you want him to be a main event player, but the main event win at Wrestlemania? Overkill. A decided thumbs down to this one.

 

King Kamala Classic: I don't know...it's easy to see why this show gets a bad rap but personally I think it's pretty good. Not as good as the two shows preceded it or the two that succeeded it. I think it's good but maybe not WrestleMania good. My perspective also might be aided by the fact that I didn't see the show until like two years or so later and thus had lowered expectations for it.

 

Smues: As to the point about getting everybody on the card, they should have just put more people in the hardcore match. Well, and HHH being the one to pin Foley. NO reason it couldn't be the Rock.But that ending, I couldn't even watch the rest of the show again until years later.

Ed Wood Caulfield: I would have also accepted Mick Foley.

Hunter’s Torn Quad Watching yet another Triple H pinfall on Foley was too much It was too obvious they were shoving him down our throats

909: Foley shouldn't have even been involved.

Smues: I actually went outside and took a long walk after that main event. I think I missed the rocks 'revenge' when it was live because I had left. I just couldn't believe it

909: I have no problem with HHH winning the match, or being pushed as he was. He was really fucking good.

Ed Wood Caulfield: I remember the fans throwing garbage into the ring after HHH got the pin.

Smues: Yeah, I forgot to mention that.

King Kamala Classic: yeah, I wouldn't have had a problem with the finish if it were a nothing PPV but that shit doesn't fly at 'Mania

Ed Wood Caulfield: It's rare that that happens at a WWF/WWE show.

Smues: the ring was COVERED in garbage, something you never saw on WWF shows. (wcw oh yes)

 

WrestleMania X-7

Smues: First something I meant to mention when we talked about 16 but it applies here. The last few Wrestlemanias before the WWE switched were just plastered in WWF logos, and as a result the post lawsuit DVDs are blurred to all hell, and it's a pain in the ass to watch as wrestlers will get blurred when they run into the logos. On the bad ones I don't care (see WM2000) but on the good ones, it's annoying. and WMX-7 is the best wrestling PPV I've ever seen. No I haven't seen Bash 89, but I doubt I'd like it more than this. I spent like $50 to buy a used copy of the pre WWE release just so I could have it in all it's glory. Everyone from the top to the bottom of the card put on their working boots, and I don't think there is one stinker on the show. Matches that normally might have sucked were watchable and matches that would have been decent were great. The crowd was hot, and the massive stadium helped with the atmosphere I think.

 

This sucker is just loaded with historic matches and angles. You want technical wrestling? Benoit and Angle put on a fucking clinic that's only marred by the abrupt finish. You want spotfest? TLC2 will IMO never be topped. I said the match at WM16 was the most HOLY SHIT moments I'd seen in one match, well the one here had even more, and better flow. And Edge spearing somebody hanging FROM the title belts. Just awesome. You want angles? Vince vs Shane was overbooked city but it was done perfectly. The crowd reaction when Linda stands up and kicks Vince in the balls is something to behold. And the shane terminator is nice too. You want a power brawl? HHH vs Undertaker delivers in that department, as they just beat the shit out of each for our enjoyment. Watching it live I was 110% sure HHH was endind the streak thanks to what happened the prior year, and when he sledgehammered Taker I would have bet my life that was the finish. One of my few true mark out moments post WM16 was Undertaker winning that match. And there's all that awesome without even getting to the main event, which was just a buffet of awesome. Yeah the turn at the end was lame, but the crowd at least enjoyed it, and it wasn't enough to ruin an amazing match. This show is pretty much the end of the Attitude era, but man they could not have gone out on a better note. Just fantastic.\

 

King Kamala Classic: This is my all time favorite 'Mania and one of my all time favorite PPVs. As I said at the end of last week's show, this was the show that recaptured the aura and spectacle of WrestleMania that had really been missing since X and I honestly think they've maintained that aspect ever since. Sure, a couple have been a bit less than stellar wrestling wise (coughX-8cough) but they've all at least looked and felt like huge events. I also love that it's got sort of an old school WrestleMania feel to it with everybody of importance getting their time in the spotlight. The difference between this and the old school Manias is that everything is watchable and most everything is good to great.

 

As Smues said, everybody from top to bottom put on their working boots. There's something for everybody. Goofy comedy wrestling, you got it. Technical, spotfest, overbooked brawls, yep. There's nothing here that doesn't work. Everything serves its purpose. I'm having a hard time thinking of a better constructed card (like Smues---I haven't had the privlage of seeing GAB '89). It's virtually impossible to come up with a match of the night for this show. TLC, Benoit/Angle, The Undertaker/Triple H, and the main event are all flat out awesome. How many other shows have four ****+ matches? Can't think of any off the top of my head. And the match that started the wave of '80s WWF nostalgia...The Gimmick Battle Royal! Yeah, this show is great. Hard to add anything that hasn't been said.

 

Ed Wood Caulfield: Best. Pay-Per-View. Ever. Seriously, this is not only the best WrestleMania ever, but the best pay-per-view in the history of professional wrestling. I LOVED every minute of it, and I still do. The over-the-top cinematic introduction with Classy Freddy Blassie doing the narration is one of the top 3 best WM intros. Jericho/Regal is a good, not great, match to start things off with. The six-man tag is decent. Eddie/Test was another good one, although the only part I really remember is when Test got his foot stuck in the ropes. Angle/Benoit was great but I haven't watched it in years. Shane/Vince is the 2nd best McMahon match ever (the first being Angle/Shane from KOTR 2001). I marked the fuck out when Linda dramatically stood up, and even though you can clearly see Vince spread his legs out a little bit so that Linda can kick him in the groin, it's still a great moment. Shane's Van Terminator was just the icing on the cake. The Gimmick Battle Royal was a nice piece of nostalgia, and it was great to see Bobby "The Brain" Heenan back in the WWF. I still love Heenan's line about The Iron Sheik "By the time he gets to the ring it will be WrestleMania 36!"TLC II was aces. Still a spectacular match.

 

HHH/Taker was an awesome power match. Triple H's entrance was classic. And the main event is still the best main event in WrestleMania history. The video package still sends chills down my spine. "My Way" fit so perfectly. It's still the best thing Limp Bizkit has ever done. The main event was the definition of epic. The two biggest stars of the WWF duking it out for the WWF Championship in front of 67,000-plus fans in the Houston Astrodome. It didn't get any bigger than that. The drama, the intensity, the heat was off the charts. They told a GREAT story with Austin doing the one thing he thought that he would never do to get the one thing that meant more to him than anything else in the entire world. As you can see, I don't really mind the ending as much as other people do. It's truly the end of the Attitude Era. But what a way to go out. When it was over, I said to myself, "I just witnessed history." They've yet to top this pay-per-view.

 

909: This is undoubtedly the best wrestling show I have ever watched. Benoit-Angle was just great. The hardcore match was GOOD. Test vs. Eddie was good. Shane vs. Vince was really good. TLC II was the best spotfest I've ever seen. The Gimmick Battle Royal was fantastic. Trips vs. Taker was great, although by now I'm really sick of that finish. Rock vs. Austin was just one of those matches you won't forget.The ending to Rock/Austin was nonsensical filth.It doesn't ruin the match, but how stupid is it, really. There were only two down points here1. Chyna vs. Ivory 2. RTC vs. APA and Tazz. Rest is cake. Early 2001 was truly the end of stringing together a few memorable shows in a row. And the end of my excitement in the product.

 

Hunter’s Torn Quad: Jericho/Regal was a disappointment. Tazz/APA vs. RTC was tolerable. Kane/Raven/Big Show was a really fun hardcore match with lots of fun, crazy stuff. Eddie Guerrero/Test was ropey because of the style clash, but who could forget Perry Saturn looking like a cross between Superstar Billy Graham and Buff Bagwell. Angle/Benoit was really good, and while I didn't like the finish, I can see the logic behind it. It was also a nice surprise to see the crowd react so well for the amateur-style work at the beginning. Chyna/Ivory was terrible with a finish that screamed of ego. Shane/Vince was a nice garbage brawl and when Linda stood up that crowd went ballistic. TLC I was a fantastic stuntfest and I think having Lita, Rhino and Spike interfere made it better because it allowed for action while the next big spot was getting set up. The Gimmick Battle Royal was fine for what it was and a nice way to bring the crowd down. Undertaker/Triple H was surprisingly good, and I say surprisingly because Undertaker wasn't having good matches with anyone at the time. The false finish with Triple H using the sledgehammer in mid-Last Ride was great. Austin/Rock was really good and the near falls had the crowd going bonkers. The finish didn't really harm the match, even if it didn't have the desired effect live and turned out to be a bad move for business. I'd call WM X-7 the best Wrestlemania of them all and give it two huge thumbs up with an extra thumb given for the fantastic 'My Way' video, which remains the last time a WWE hype video gave me goosebumps and the feeling that I was going to be watching something special.

 

Smues: I had forgotten to mention the gimmick royale. I loved it. Yeah it wasnt a real match, but it wasn't about the match anyway it was all the gimmicks and letting the crowd pop and GETTING BOBBY HEENAN BEHIND THE MIC ONE LAST TIME. Just awesome all around.

King Kamala Classic: As great as this show, it's kind of bittersweet. It really is the beginning of the end of an era.

Smues: yeah it's the end, but you can't go out on a higher note. If you gotta die, do it in style

Hunter’s Torn Quad The only problem with going out on such a high is that it made the crash that much worse

King Kamala Classic: yeah, well honestly I don't think the crash was immediate. Well...it wasn't immediately noticed. I didn't realize the era was really over until we were knee deep in shit.

Ed Wood Caufield: The only WrestleMania JR and Heyman did together.

Smues: Oh yeah I forgot to mention Heyman in place of King. I thought having Heyman there made it a lot more enjoyable.

Hunter’s Torn Quad No way it would have come across so well with Lawler

King Kamala Classic: Lawler is too much of a goof even when he's trying to play it straight.

Ed Wood Caulfield: The Debra part of the Austin/Rock feud was so forgettable.They didn't need her. Once they realize that Rock/Austin sold itself, it got better.

Smues:: Yeah. Austin didn't need her either apparantly. Punch punch

909: if you turn Austin, shouldn't it be towards something better than a Taker/Kane feud?

Hunter’s Torn Quad: They should have called an audible and turned Rock

Smues: I agree with that, but they were headset on turning Austin heel and I don't know why. Because he was still insanely over as a face.

909: Yeah, but Rock was leaving and everyone would've forgotten by the time he came back.

King Kamala Classic: yeah, they couldn't have turned Rock face. Maybe when he got back from filming Scorpion King but it would have been just as bad timing as an Austin heel turn. How about nobody turns heel at the end of that match if we're doing fantasy booking?

Ed Wood Caulfield: How much longer would the boom have continued if the Austin heel turn hadn't happened?

909: not at all. there was nowhere else to go

King Kamala Classic: Yeah, I think time was running out for the boom period regardless of what happened at the PPV.

909: Yeah, but the heel turn tried to extend that by adding something totally different. Failed.

King Kamala Classic: yeah the heel turn wasn't a bad idea in theory to extend the shelf life of WWF"s popularity. I mean where else was there to go if Austin remained face? Maybe heel Angle Vs Austin, I don't know.

Hunter’s Torn Quad I think they'd have probably tried pushing Big Show again

King Kamala Classic: maybe have Austin fighting off the invading WCW guys?

Hunter’s Torn Quad: Which is what the fans wanted, and got, even if for one night

King Kamala Classic: God, can't believe we didn't mention the buyout of WCW in all this X-7 talk. I guess we're all trying to purge The Invasion from our memories!

Ed Wood Caulfield: I'll never forget the crowd booing the WCW guys.

Hunter’s Torn Quad Or the crowd going beyond insane when the old Stone Cold showed up to stun everyone in sight

Ed Wood Caulfield: The camera didn't even get a good close-up shot of them. And the graphic just said WCW Superstars'

Smues: But hey they had a luxery box!

Hunter’s Torn Quad: Wasn't even worth showing them

Ed Wood Caulfield: I was disappointed that no one from WCW interfered during the Shane/Vince match.

 

WrestleMania X-8

 

Smues: Wrestlemania X-8: When I think of this show I don't have positive thoughts about it. I wasn't very excited for it, I wasn't very excited after i watched it, and I never really bothed to watch it when i watch the other DVDs. That said, I popped it in yesterday to discover I'd been far too negative about this show. It's not a great show by any means, but it’ss perfectly acceptable as a WWF ppv, and as a Wrestlemania it doesn't have a blowaway in ring match, but its got an epic in ring match that's worthy of the wrestlemania moniker in Rock vs Hogan. I don't think anything on the card really sucked, and Skydome was a great venue for it, I hope they go back. The switch to seemingly always doing WM in massive arenas was a good move, IMO. I just love the atmosphere and the crowd. Nothing mind blowing in the ring but some decent matches including Edge vs. Booker T, Angle vs. Kane, Undertaker /Ric Flair, and the main event. Of course I’m going to point out that HHH gets to be the first heel to walk out of WM the champ, and then he is also the one to end that streak and win the title as a face at this show, but I’ll contain my HHH bashing, I got it mostly out of my system (until we talk WM19) when we talked WM16.

 

My real problem with the main event is that it was the title match, when most of the hype for the show was on Hogan vs. Rock. That’s your Wrestlemania moment, put it on last. I also, while not expecting Flair to end Taker’s streak, and he really shouldn’t have been the guy, didn’t care for how one sided that fued was. But my comlaints aside there is nothing horribly wrong with this wrestlemania. Outside of Rock-Hogan there's nothing to really seperate it from any non WM pay per view, but Rock-Hogan is that epic moment every WM needs so it works. and as a match it sucked, but the crowd made that match, and they played off of it perfectly. Oh and I can't talk WM18 without mentioning Scott Halls selling of the stunner. He pops up so high he takes a second one in a row. Always good for a laugh. So this is a wrestlemania I'll have to get into the regular rotation. One complaint though: WAY too much live music at this one. I lost count but I think if you include HHH getting live music (one of like 1,600 times he does at WM) I think I counted five live songs. And it's not just that Saliva and Drowning Pool suck. That's just too much live music at a Wrestling show. And only one I think was as entrance music, I'd be ok if it was all restricted to entrance music, but it wasn't.

 

King Kamala Classic: Yeah...this show is the definition of average. A lot of matches in the **-*** range (basically everything Smues mentioned and the opener) but nothing that stands out as particularly great or horrible (well maybe the Hardcore title match and Hall-Austin sort of sucked outside Hall’s aforementioned selling of The Stunner). Oh and this was probably the peak of my disenchantment with rock radio before I finally just stopped listening so the multiple appearances by Drowning Pool and Saliva didn't really go over well with me.This one does have a great atmosphere going for it and it does have one WrestleMania classic in Rock-Hogan. As a traditionalist, I won't argue that it should have been the main event. That match very well could have really really sucked...maybe the fans wouldn't have cared regardless of quality but it was a miracle that those two were able to put on a match that was actually fairly watchable. I've always thought the World title match should go on last. Putting Jericho and Triple H together at that point was a surefire way to get a **** match but that dumbass storyline and Triple H being a crappy babyface kind of just led to that match sort of falling flat. Why the hell were Jericho and Stephanie so chummy anyways after he had spent the last two years insulting her to no end? Always bugged the hell out of me. It's a good match but nowhere near as good as it could have been. I'd put this WrestleMania directly in the middle if I were to rank them (and I think I will, once this whole roundtable thingy is said and done). The first word that comes to mind with this show is middling

 

Ed Wood Caulfield: Words cannot describe how much I utterly loathe this period of the WWF. This show takes place smack dab during the middle of my least favourite period in WWF history (I didn't watch during 1995). I hate it. I thought it was above average back then, but I utterly despise it now. The Rock vs. Hollywood Hulk Hogan is the only match I have any use for anymore. Regal/RVD was forgettable. The Hardcore Title segments were all right. The Fatal Four Way Tag Team Title Match sucked. Undertaker/Ric Flair was decent. Austin/Hall sucked (though Hall's Stunner sell is still hilarious to this day). DDP/Christian sucked.I was at the height of my Rock fandom, so that Hogan match is one of my all-time favourites. And that main event. Ugh. Everything about that feud was just so damn terrible! Instead of something as simple as "You injured me. I'm getting payback." They went with running over a dog's leg. This was when Stephanie was at her most annoying too. The Pedigree she got wasn't satisfying at all.The Triple Threat Women's Title Match blew. I hate WrestleMania X-8. Sans Rock/Hogan, I never want to watch this show again. 2002 pretty much blew for the WWF/E.

 

909: First, this show is awfully boring.Without Rock/Hogan, it is on the level of WM IX. It's also the pinnacle of bad angles in the WWE. Really, it just does not get worse. You have guys fighting over a shampoo commercial. Two gay dudes in a team, but the gay dudes really aren't even gay. The dog. A superhero and his sidekick winning a belt. I could go on, but I won't. It is really bad.

 

Hunter’s Torn Quad: RVD/Regal was enjoyable but I don't know that I'd have put this on at WM because it was never going to be that great due to the style clash. Wasn't impressed with DDP/Christian or the Hardcore match. Angle/Kane was fine but they've had far better and the botched finished didn't help. I HATED Undertaker/Flair, even if the Arn Anderson cameo was a big surprise. I'm talking negative stars. Edge/Booker T was clunky. Austin/Hall was fine but you really expect more from Austin, especially at Wrestlemania. Though, Hall did sell that second Stunner like a trooper. The four-way tag match was passable. Rock/Hogan was a fantastic and emotional spectacle but watching it the next day and without the buzz and you realize the actual match was sub-par. Jazz/Trish/Lita was your typical WWE women's match. Triple H/Jericho was fine but nobody cared. Even if the crowd weren't spent from Rock/Hogan, the build up to this had done such a spectacular number on Jericho's credibility that nobody was buying that he had a chance. I'd give this a thumbs up live, due to Rock/Hogan, but thumbs down if you're watching it a second time.

 

King Kamala Classic; I don't think anybody will argue this as a great Mania but almost as bad as IX? Harsh.

Smues: I wouldnt rank this near IX or XV

Hunter’s Torn Quad: Nor would I. But it is not far off

909: If not for Rock/Hogan, I would put it on the level of IX. It's just fucking boring

King Kamala Classic: yeah, I'd rank IX, XV, IV,XIII, II, and XI worse than this off the top of my head

Ed Wood Caulfield: Honestly, I'd rather watch IX then this.

909: No thanks.

King Kamala Classic: No, I'd rather get all of my finger and toe nails plucked out than watch IX or XV again. The rest, I could probably tolerate to some extent.

Smues: Hogan vs HHH the next month? WTF were they thinking.

King Kamala Classic: Hogan Vs Taker was even worse

909: they rode the wave into the ground

 

WrestleMania XIX

 

Smues: WM19 was a five hour drive from where I was living, so a friend of mine and a bunch of his friends that I didn’t know drove over for it. We needed I think eight seats in a row so we were pretty high up, but there aren’t many bad seats at Safeco. Again I love the large stadium atmosphere, and being there live it was certainly awesome. I hadn’t been following the product very closely at that point, but I caught myself up going into this show. Again there’s nothing truly awful here (except Limb Bizcut but I’ll get to that in a moment) and a couple of really great matches. Rock/Austin 3 is not for everybody, but I was able to enjoy it for what it was, and I think I might like it more than their WM15 match. Jericho vs. Michaels was great except for I didn’t care for the end. Both the way it was executed and the fact that Michaels one, since A. he didn’t need it and b. at that point for all we knew Michaels would be back in retirement in two weeks. And the main event was some awesome stuff too, as Lesnar and Angle both brought their A game. And again, I didn’t find any matches to be truly awful or anything. Pretty much all of them outside of the Undertaker tag match were decent to good.

 

The bad: The Undertaker handicap match was pretty brutal. As it was just resthold fest 2003. I especially like (see loathe) the part where Big Show has undertaker in an abdominal stretch, tags to Albert who put Taker in an abdominal stretch, and then the Taker escapes it and puts Albert in…an abdominal stretch. Yeee-uck. Limp Bizcut sucked of course, but at least it was only two songs, and one of which played out Undertaker’s entrance. And in fact their second song was fine because it gave everybody a chance to go get food or take a shit and not miss anything important. The Miller Lite cat fight girls thing was pointless and I can’t even say harmless because it resulted in coachman in his underwear. Vince/Hogan as a brawl was ok, but it was A. really pointless and not needed, and B. LONG LONG LONG. The people I was with and I kept looking at each other and asking ‘when the fuck is this going to end? And is there a point?" Then Piper runs out and yeah that gets the nostalgia pop, but again, pointless. Truly since it didn’t lead to Vince winning.

 

Take this match off the card and give it’s…20 minutes to the opening crusierweight match (which had like 5 minutes and was just warming up when it ended) and to the smack down tag title match. Speaking of the cruiserweight match, Rey’s outfit is pretty awful. He looks like Daredevil. And lastly I have to talk about Booker T vs. HHH. I think everybody knows the story here, but I need to bitch anyway. It’s not just the fact that HHH as heel retained at WM again, at least it wasn’t the main event this time. It’s that the entire company treated Booker like shit this entire fued, and I don’t think I’m stretching to say it was fairly racial. All the talk about Booker’s people not being champion material, it was just pathetic. HHH treated him like a complete joke, Flair didn’t help matters, and even Lawler on the mic is like NO HIS PEOPLE WOULD DISGRACE THE BELT. And if that wasn’t all bad enough, there’s the finish.

 

HHH gets the win with the pedigree. I timed it, from the moment it hits to when HHH attempts a cover is about 22 seconds. and yes the cover is successful, so after the pedigree hits Booker is out for over 25 seconds? He's not a referee, he's a title contender. What a farce, and I don't think it's just the HHH bias in me in this case. Thank god it wasn't the main event. But anyway really good show and a step in the right direction after WM18. And during Austin/Rock someone in our row yelled "It's ok Austin you can't beat the Rock but you can beat your wife!" which was pretty funny.

 

King Kamala Classic: I'm not crazy about this show. I always found it odd that they shortchanged the undercard matches so badly on this show. It's a four or so show and you give the opener and the Smackdown Tag Team titles match both less than ten minutes yet you give Hogan-McMahon an absurd amount of time and give Limp Bizkit two performances and The Miller Light Catgirls (who only had like two minutes of fame) some face time. Just absurd. And the less said about Triple H-Booker the better. That match just infuritated me. That said, there is a fair share of good stuff on this show. Angle-Brock is a hell of a main event, it was great to see Austin-Rock one last time, Jericho-HBK is great.Decent Mania but with some simple booking changes it could have been a better one. And the Taker handicap match is just behind the match with Bundy at XI and the one with Giant Gonzalez at IX in terms of bad Taker Mania matches

 

Ed Wood Caulfield: I've always thought that this was an underrated WrestleMania. 50% of the matches on the card had weak buildup, but the event as a whole delivered. We had the first (and sadly last) appearance of Matt Hardy Version 1.0 and Rey Mysterio in cool Daredevil outfit go at it. The ending was disappointing though. Rey should have gone over and the match should have lasted like 5-10 minutes longer. But I can understand wanting to save Rey's big Crusierweight Title win for his hometown. ): He even got to main event then, back when that was a rarity! The Triple Threat Tag Team Match for the WWE Tag Team Titles was decent, although by that point, the SmackDown! Six formula had been done to death. Undertaker vs. Big Show/A-Train was forgettable, but at least Limp Bizkit got to perform "Rollin'" for The Undertaker finally...two years too late. HBK/Jericho was awesome! 2nd best match on the show. I'll never forget how Shawn reacted so calm and funny when the Badd Blasters didn't work. If you wanted proof that HBK had changed, that was some proof right there. The ending made sense to me at the time, and it does so even more today, now that HBK is back full-time. This is actually the match that made Shawn want to come back full-time, so it's certainly historic too in a way.

 

The Women's Title Match was enjoyable. Great to see Trish get her belt back again (although she lost it the next month). There is one spot in the match where Victoria stops the pin and Jazz tells her "What the hell are you doing!?" Victoria shoves her. Jazz just stands there and lets it sink in, and then lets out a primal yell and bumrushes Victoria into a corner. I never noticed that spot until I saw the match again last year, and I laughed so hard when I finally noticed it. The Miller Lite Catfight Girls segment was useless ESPECIALLY since we saw Coach in his underwear. Wow, those girls truly did have only 15 minutes of fame didn't they? Does anyone even remember them today? It was funny how the blonde Cat Fight Girl couldn't pronounce Hulk Hogan right. She kept saying "Hulk Hoagan." Why couldn't they just get the brunette to say Hogan then? Speaking of which, Hogan/Vince was a good brawl. Vince McMahon's Ladder Legdrop. Was it cool or what!? The Piper cameo was a nice surprise though it led to some awful awful crap later on. Vince's expression when he grabs the lead pipe is classic. As is he giving Hogan the bird while lying on the mat as Shane checks on him. Sadly, this all led to the Mr. America crap, which kind of taints it. The less said about HHH/Booker the better. Rock/Ausitn was great as usual. Rock was on FIRE back in 2003, and it's such a shame that he left so soon afterwards. The Hollywood entrance is still one of the Top 5 greatest entrances in professional wrestling history. I haven't seen Angle/Lesnar in years, but I remember enjoying it. The only thing I still remember about that match is the botched Shooting Star Press. All in all, this was a much better card than WrestleMania X8. It's definitely underrated for sure.

 

909: It was pretty good, but has brought us towards what we currently have now. Any semblance of undercard matches (read: elevating anyone) on a WrestleMania show is GONE. In any case, Angle-Brock is really good. HBK-Jericho is also very good. Austin-Rock is kinda weird.

 

Hunter’s Torn Quad: Rey/Hardy was OK but I was expecting more, both in terms of quality and time; 5:39? WTF? Undertaker vs. A-Train/Show was fine for what it was, and how funny is that even with all that build of 'taker training Nathan Jones, they didn't trust him to so much as stand on the apron? Trish/Victoria/Jazz was better than average, thanks to Jazz and Trish. The three-way tag match was fine but wouldn't have been out of place as a TV main event. Michaels/Jericho was really good but it was totally deflating for Shawn to go over. Jericho was sticking around full-time and Shawn was already an established near-legend, so he wouldn't have lost a thing putting Jericho over for a win Jericho really needed. We can ignore the pillow fight bullshit. Triple H/Booker was pretty decent but that finish was totally uncalled for. Was it really necessary to bury Booker by waiting almost 30 seconds between hitting the pedigree and making a ONE HANDED COVER? You can defend Triple H winning but there is no way to defend that finish. No way at all. Hogan/Vince was a great storyline brawl with lots of blood and both men, especially Vince, doing more than you’d expect. Plus, the Roddy Piper cameo was a great surprise. Rock/Austin was really good, even though, to me, it came across as more a performance of spots than an actual wrestling match. Angle/Lesnar was a match I really enjoyed and don’t think it gets the praise it should. It’s mostly remembered for Brock botching the SSP, which is sad because the match was great up to that point and, had he nailed the move, I would have easily given this match the full *****. I’d give this one a moderate thumbs up.

909:You guys hit the Booker/HHH stuff right on the head. I don't know how anyone could watch a summary of that angle and say, that's not racist at all

Smues: Don't forget them showing the mug shot of Booker T a hundred times too.

Ed Wood Caulfield: Lawler wouldn't shut up with the racism during that match.

Smues: STREET THUG STREET THUG

909: It was just disgusting.

Ed Wood Caulfield: Didn't they tone down on the racism once they decided that HHH was going to win?

Smues: Watching it at the arena was odd because I didn't get the racist commentary from the booth, I got it from my friends dad. I think the man stood up and clapped when HHH got the 3 count, and I had to ask my friend why his dad liked HHH so much, and his response was "because Booker T is black." Kind of creepy

.

909: Well, I'm sure a lot of typical wrestling fans were happy about that one anyway. They know their audience meaning with the racism

Ed Wood Caulfield: Everytime I watch Rock/Austin from WM XIX, it just makes me wish The Rock was still wrestling even more. His heel character in 2003 was just phenemonal.

Smues: Rock wearing Austins jacket was great stuff.

Hunter’s Torn Quad His rarely used entrance, with the helicopter footage, was great

Ed Wood Caulfield: Don't forget how he adjusted it when he got up. The little touches like that were great. And Rock talking to Austin after the match was kinda sweet. At least now that I know what they were saying to each other. One more thing: Lawler talking about "WrestleMania The Movie" got really tiresome. .

Smues: One note I'll make is the only problem with safeco is that even witht he roof closed it's still not sealed on the side, so a lot of light gets in during the day, and it's noticable as it gets darker throughout the show

Ed Wood Caulfield: I remember SmackDown: Here Comes The Pain having Safeco Fieldhouse as an arena. You could come down a zip-line like Shawn Michaels at it.

Smues: Really? that's pretty cool

Ed Wood Caulfield Yep.Brock Lesnar doing the zip-line entrance is one for the ages.

King Kamala Classic: I'm trying to picture Big Show doing it or KANE! The possibilities are endless

Smues: Owen Hart CAW for the inapproriate win!

909: that was over the edge

Smues: Sorry, I released that one too early

 

 

WrestleMania XX

 

Smues: Really great show, I think it has to rank 2nd behind WM17. That said it’s LONG and there’s a lot of filler and you could chop an hour off of this without really hurting it. But there is so much good here it’s hard to even know where to start. I expected nothing out of Rock/Foley vs. evolution, but it was the surprise of the night. Great chemistry between all involved, and Flair and Rock playing off of each other is just gold. Crowd ate it up too, and a nice last match for the Rock, who goes out of his way to make it special for Foley too. Angle vs. Eddie is a MOTY candidate and I really had no idea who was winning it until the finish. Just a classic because two greats. And I need to mention somewhere that the crowd for the whole show was pretty electric and helped make this such a fun show. Jericho vs. Christian wasn’t as good as I expected because they had 15 minutes and I expected greatness but it was still really really good. Cena vs. Big Show wasn’t very good but Cena being over at MSG is so weird to watch today. There’s even a CENA chant. And don’t forget Lesnar/Goldberg. As a match it’s beyond garbage, but the crowd makes it great, as they just shit all over both of them. And I think we get 3 full chants before they ever even touch each other. YOU SOLD OUT, NA NA HAY HAY GOOD BYE, it’s all there. It obviously affected both guys pretty badly. Well worth watching, but keep the sound up. On mute it’d be pretty awful.

 

As for the bad, nothing stands out to me, there’s just too much filler and like I said the show was longggg. They could have cut a few matches and no one would have cared. As for the main event, it's one of the best triple threat matches you'll ever see. I really didn't care for the inclusion of HBK into the match though. Benoit won the rumble, he gets the shot. Make the non rumble winners match the 3 way. But it worked out for the best. and it gave us such a great moment at the end with Benoit getting HHH to tap (something I never expected, if Benoit was winning I expected a quick 3 on a cradle) and then the celebration and what not. The celebration, not so great to watch anymore, but I could watch that match until the end of time, ending the ending. Just stop the dvd shortly after benoit gets the belt and has his hand raised. Really great show, and it's pretty awesome they were able to put on something so awesome for the 20th anniversary show. Like I said it's behind 17, and it's not close either, but then I don't think it's close between this in 2nd place for all time wrestlemanias and whatever show is 3rd place.

 

King Kamala Classic Yeah, I like this show a lot. It seemed like for a while, it may have replaced XX as the consensus greatest Mania of all time but I think time and The Benoit murders has pushed it back to #2. As Smues said, this show is just about an hour too long and I don't think the filler is as good as it was at X-7. That said...great, great show. Three ****+ matches, a very solid Christian/Chris Jericho match, the always entertaining Brock Vs Goldberg debacle. Everything else is kind of forgettable but that's more than enough to make this show a superb Mania and what more can be said about MSG? For my money, the greatest Mania venue of all time. Can't wait till they return there for WrestleMania XXX (Can’t wait to see Triple H go for his 22nd World title!) but yeah, it's odd but I judge WrestleMania greatness on how tolerable the filler is and this one's doesn't quite doesn't stack up as well as X-7's

 

909: It is way too long. But very good. Perhaps if they are going to run such long shows, they should run less, but longer matches? The Evolution vs. Rock and Sock tag is very good. main event will always be a great match, and as mentioned, I just turn it off once the bell rings and that's it. Jericho/Christian could've been better.

 

Ed Wood Caulfield: It's not the greatest WrestleMania of all-time like the WWE wanted it to be, but it's definitely the 2nd greatest. This show was alot of fun, even before the main event. The venue was great, the crowd was fired up, I like the lighting, the set was cool (remember Kane's entrance when the city burned?). I really liked the Harlem Boys Choir's version of "America The Beautiful" and the CGI Freedom Tower at the end was a nice touch. Cena/Big Show was a decent opener, notable for giving Cena his first ever WWE belt. I still miss Cena as a rapper. The two Fatal Four Way Tag Team matches are forgettable junk. Christian/Jericho I feel could have been better, but it was still good. ***1/2 maybe. The storyline is still tremendous stuff. I was half-expecting Trish to turn heel, but I was still shocked when she slapped Jericho. Heel Trish was a great character. She managed to get even hotter too. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Rock N' Sock Connection vs. Evolution. The 2nd best match of the night, IMO. A great crowd, great atmosphere. Everything was awesome from The Rock's promo to the postmatch hug between Rock and Foley. This was truly The Rock and Ric Flair Show. Flair's People's Elbow still makes me laugh to this very day. Everyone did their roles perfectly. It sucks that Rock's last match was a lost in a Handicap Tag Team Match, but still, at least he went out on a great great match.

 

The Playboy Evening Gown Match was forgettable fluff. Angle/Guerrero was awesome, although I haven't seen it in years, so I'm not sure if it holds up. Brock/Goldberg is an awful match, but the crowd makes it worth watching. Undertaker/Kane was as good as it could have been. I was disappointed that Undertaker didn't return to his old school look, instead opting to just grow his hair out barely and wear a new hat and leather jacket. Paul Bearer's return was a nice surprise though. Oh well. At least Taker let his hair grow out longer as the years went by. I haven't seen the main event since the day Chris Benoit died. I remember liking it, and I'll never forget literally being on the edge of my seat and yelling, "TAP!" when Benoit had Triple H in the Crippler Crossface. When HHH really did tap out, I was so relieved! I could have stopped watching professional wrestling right there and I almost did, in fact. Something always brought me back. A great ending that is now and forever tainted. I also have a soft spot for this show for personal reasons. It has nothing to do with the show itself, just things that happened in my life that happened around this time. The only things I remember from the Cruiserweight Open are Ultimo Dragon slipping twice and Billy Kidman almost killing himself with the Shooting Star Press to the outside. Oh, and Rey Mysterio's Flash costume was pretty cool. Definitely one of the better WrestleManias. I didn't mind the 5 hour running time. It flew by when I watched it.

 

Hunter’s Torn Quad Cena/Show was a fine opener that did its job of priming the crowd. Worth going back and watching purely to see MSG pop huge for Cena and not hearing a single boo. Both four-way tag matches are totally forgettable and might as well have never happened. Jericho/Christian was a really good midcard match and the Trish turn was a nice surprise. Evolution vs. Rock/Foley was OK but there were plenty of little things that took the match down. The women’s tag was at least kept short, because it was terrible. Like the tag title matches, the Cruiserweight free-for-all was a match you can skip. Goldberg/Lesnar was actually decent stuff and would have been better as a battle of hard hitting monsters. The problem is that they were never going to get the chance, no matter what they did, because both men had the ‘gall’ to leave the company and the always petulant wrestling fans were damn sure going to let them know it. Victory/Molly was OK and it was nice to see a hair match end with an actual shaving. Angle/Guerrero was real good but not great, though I loved the finish. Undertaker/Kane was acceptable but at least it was better than their horrible effort six years earlier. Benoit/HBK/HHH was five star emotion in a match that doesn’t quite reach that level. It was really good, though, and the final scene of Eddie and Chris embracing was very touching and it really got to people. If Eddie dying put a bit of cloud over this then Benoit pulling a Benoit put an entire thunderstorm. I’d give this one a thumbs in the middle but slightly going up.

 

 

[King Kamala 0]

By the way, couple of slots open for next week's roundtable, covering WrestleManias 21 through 24, next Tuesday at 8 P.M. EST. Give me a PM or holler at me here if you want in. Preferably someone who hasn't done one before.

[bob_barron 0]

I'm down for next week's roundtable, if you need someone.

 

problem is that they were never going to get the chance, no matter what they did, because both men had the ‘gall’ to leave the company and the always petulant wrestling fans were damn sure going to let them know it.

 

Why should they give them a chance? They knew both guys were leaving, it was a terrible feud, and MSG's not going to root for Goldberg.

 

I was at this show, and thumbs in the middle is absurd. I agree that it was WAY too long, but the main event is just perfect.

[Smues 0]

Damn our like...2? hours of after chatter got cut You erased our Madden bashing!

 

So Bob, you were at WM20, what's your take on the show as a whole, and on the main event post Benoit killings?

[foleyfanforever88 0]

I've seen 10 (the past 10) Wrestlemanias, and my top 5 are:

 

17

24

21

20

22

 

After that, it's tough to rank them. I'm sure I enjoyed the earlier ones when I was younger..but now they don't necessarily hold up as well.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

problem is that they were never going to get the chance, no matter what they did, because both men had the ‘gall’ to leave the company and the always petulant wrestling fans were damn sure going to let them know it.

 

Why should they give them a chance?

Maybe because one of them almost broke his neck for their entertainment only the year before?

 

I shouldn't be surprised. Wrestling fans do tend to have a "What have you done for me lately?" mentality when it comes to giving a damn.

[Boner Kawanger 0]

What does Rock say to Austin after the XIX match? I used to know but the knowledge has left me.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What does Rock say to Austin after the XIX match? I used to know but the knowledge has left me.

Rock told Austin that he loved him and he appreciated what he'd done.

[bob_barron 0]

problem is that they were never going to get the chance, no matter what they did, because both men had the ‘gall’ to leave the company and the always petulant wrestling fans were damn sure going to let them know it.

 

Why should they give them a chance?

Maybe because one of them almost broke his neck for their entertainment only the year before?

 

I shouldn't be surprised. Wrestling fans do tend to have a "What have you done for me lately?" mentality when it comes to giving a damn.

 

But the audience knew both men were leaving after the match, the match itself had a terrible build, no one likes Goldberg anyway. Why should they care about a match that was 100% meaningless?

 

I don't blame Lesnar for quitting or Goldberg for leaving, but I also don't blame the crowd for crapping all over the match

[Papacita 0]

2000: I swore Bull Buchanan was gonna be huge coming out of this show. Whatever happened to him? Anyway, this wasn't really that bad a show, but like everyone said, the finish kills it. For me, I don't think the problem was so much the fact that HHH went over (I'd have been completely fine with it if he won clean after a good match), but it was all the bullshit with the McMahons overshadowing everything. This was around the time where they were REALLY starting to outstay their welcome, and if there was any problem with HHH going over, it was worsened by having them go about it in such a convuluted way.

 

Also, given Test's recent passing (BTW, there's an obvious pun that I don't think I've seen anyone try to make...if you're gonna joke about the man's death, do it right, damn it!), I'll give a mention to the T&A/Head Cheese match. This match was ASS, since Test and Albert seemed to have zero chemestry at the time. But I thought it was cool to see how those two worked over the next few months to improve into a fairly decent team, which is one reason I liked them. Hell, I'm still pissed that Bull and Godfather got a tag title run over them. That was some bullshit!

 

Anyway...

 

X-7: Good show, but I have almost zero emotional attachment to it so I can't rank it as one of my favorites. The one match I was really looking forward to was HHH/Taker, since I absolutely loathed the idea of HHH beating Taker PERIOD, much less at a Mania. Unfortunately, though, I didn't get to see the match until about 5 months or so after it aired, and while it wasn't bad, it was just underwhelming with all the suspense taken away. Hell of a build for this one, though.

 

Re: Austin/Rock-I disagree with those who say that Austin shouldn't have turned. The WWF had changed dramatically in the year Austin was out, and by the time he came back from the neck injury, he was stale and seemed out of place. The heel turn pretty much had to happen in order for Austin to stay relevant, IMO, and I think if they had 1) taken more time to plant the seeds of the turn and 2) done the turn anywhere other than Texas, this would've gone over a lot better. I agree with the praise for match, though, and when you consider that you essentially have a heel going over for the second year in a row, this was executed a lot better than the HHH debacle from the previous year.

 

And fuck TLC II while we're at it. Without shitting on the effort, I never got the love this match gets when compared to the others.

 

X-8: Oh damn, I've been posting here for a long time! :worry: I agree with EWC that this was my least favorite WWE period, but I remember the show being surprisingly fun given all the bullshit we had going into it, but ultimately I didn't like it. Rock and Hogan is insanely overrated from an in ring perspective, but it's still a great moment, and it was hard not to get caught up in the atmosphere watching it live. I would've enjoyed the post-match (with Rock and Hogan becoming allies) a little more if Hogan hadn't tried to kille the Rock just a few weeks earlier. I did enjoy Taker/Flair too, and the Hardcore title stuff, though forced, at least gave me my all-time favorite WM moment where Christian beats Molly Holly for the belt (the best part was when she walked into the door ).

 

My biggest gripe with the show:

 

HHH/Jericho is easily the worst booked PPV World Title match ever! The Lucy/Stephanie bullshit has been well documented, and I think they top it off by actually putting HHH over here. Say what you will about it being wrong to have the heel go over, but Jericho's credibility was through the floor at this point. HHH was, at this point, rightfully being positioned as the top guy and really needed a strong, meaningful title win to push him over the edge. Instead, he went over an absolute joke of a Champion in front of a dead crowd after the shittiest build up in history; they essentially put a bullet in the man's title run before it even got off the ground. Instead of having him beat Jericho here, they should've shuffled the match to the midcard and let him retain, either by pinning HHH (that way, they could build Jericho up so there's at least some uncertainty their next encounter), or let him keep it in a cheap manner and just have him drop it to Austin (that seemed to be the match they really wanted at X-8 anyway) or someone with a little more credibility and have them transition the belt to Hunter. As it went down, this is just some shitty, shitty shit, and it's stuff like this that ultimately keeps HHH from being mentioned in the same breath with Rock and Austin despite having probably the best chance out of everybody to reach that level.

 

XIX: I think they really overdid it with the big matches (there were like 5 matches on this show that could've been a standalone ME on a regular PPV), but I really liked this one at the end of the day. HBK/Jericho was my MOTN, but like people have said, not having Jericho go over hurts this. HHH/Booker...just read my last sentence under X-8. Austin/Rock and Hogan/McMahon were both fun, and while I didn't really care for Brock/Angle at the time, that one's grown on me over the years. Nothing stands out as bad to me.

 

XX: As everyone's said, this was TOO DAMN LONG, but it was a fantastic show. Loved Jericho/Christian and Trish's big turn (I thought Christian could've gotten a believable run at the title after that), the Rock/Flair interaction (Orton murking Foley with the RKO is great too), the crowd shitting on Brock and Goldberg, and naturally the two title matches. Haven't even tried to watch this show since the deaths, so I'm not sure how this holds up for me.

 

[Diamonddust 0]

My favorite part of the Gimmick Battle Royale (Outside of seeing Heenan and Okerlund come back for the commentary) will always be seeing Michael Hayes come out in Freebird mode in front of a Texas crowd one more time.

[CanadianChris 0]

I stopped watching in this period -- XIX is the last one I've seen in its entirety. That said...

 

2000 - Good show marred by the main event. This was the real start of the overexposure of the McMahons, IMO. Forget that the main event should have logically been HHH vs. The Rock, and that having anything other than a one-on-one match for the title on the biggest show of the year is a mistake -- I could have lived with that, had it not been for the abominable "A McMahon in every corner" gimmick. And, of course, this is the show that turned me against HHH for good, since he just had to retain the title, becoming the first and only heel to do so in a Mania main event. The match overshadowed what had been a very good show, with the Eurocontinental title match an underrated gem, and the ladder match just mind-blowingly awesome, along with a bunch of other fun stuff. An added bonus was the "WrestleMania All Day Long" special that started at noon, giving half an hour to recap every show (and an hour to WMIII).

 

X-7 - Not my favourite show of all time, that will always be III. But probably the best Mania ever, top to bottom. It's a real shame that there's virtually zero historical significance to it, though. Austin's turn was completely undone in eight months, HHH-Taker was a good match but nothing more, and TLC 2 was amazing, but just another in a series of amazing ladder matches. Seeing Heenan and Okerlund together for the Gimmick Battle Royal was terrific.

 

X-8 - This one is very overrated, as is the Rock-Hogan match that carried the show to its overratedness. If they did that match anywhere but Toronto (except maybe Montreal, seeing the crowd reaction to Hogan the following night), there's no way it's remembered nearly as fondly as it is. The crowd absolutely made that match. And, of course, you have HHH going over Jericho convincingly, what a shock. Not that it really mattered, seeing of Jericho's credibility was completely shot in the buildup to this match. It was also pretty sad to see Austin and Hall quarter-assing it all the way through their match.

 

XIX - Honestly, I remember very little about this Mania besides the lineup. I know HBK/Jericho was very good, I know Austin/Rock was pretty good, Hogan/McMahon was pretty fun (and seeing Piper come out and slug both guys was awesome) HHH/Booker was quite offensive, and Brock nearly broke his neck doing an SSP. No real opinion, other that I guess it seemed good at the time.

 

XX - I haven't seen this all the way through. The double main event was fantastic, although it's a bit ruined by later events. Don't remember much else about it.

[bob_barron 0]

I don't see how X-8 is overrated, since the consensus is that it's a medicore show with Rock-Hogan blowing everything away.

[King Kamala 0]

Yeah, I vaguely recall WrestleMania X-8 initially being rated really well by the IWC in the immediate aftermath of the show. But every WrestleMania seems to be rated really highly (or really poorly) right after the show. I think the consensus now is that it's a slightly above average show at best and a mediocre one at worst. Just look at the panelists' here reaction (not saying we're spokesmen for the IWC or anything)); 909 and Ed Wood Caulfield really hated it, HTQ kind of didn't like it, I thought it was average, and Smues thought it was pretty good.

 

Like I said in the roundtable regarding WrestleMania X-8, if I were to rank all of the WrestleManias, X-8 would probably be exactly in the middle. There's enough decent stuff there to separate itself from the dregs but nothing spectacular enough to distinguish itself as one of the great WrestleManias.

[bob_barron 0]

I have to disagree with you Kamala on the title match going on last.

 

Even before Wrestlemania X-8 it was obvious that Rock v. Hogan was completely above anything else in terms of buildup, especially Jericho v. HHH. There was no reason for Jericho v. HHH to go last, except for Triple H to have his moment in the sun. Given that they laid out Rock v. Hogan weeks in advance, they had to know it was going to be over huge.

 

Look at the ending, with Rock and Hogan walking to the back and Rock having this look of amazement on his face. That's the perfect way to close the show.

 

I have no problem with HHH winning the match

 

What?? HHH being really fucking good has nothing to do with it. There was no reason for him to win the match or to have the McMahon clusterfuck that closed the show. I agree that HHH was awesome at this time, but him winning the match just killed the show for everyone. I remember the next day, everyone was shitting on this show. Why? HHH won.

[King Kamala 0]

See I don't know. I waver back on forth RE: Whether Triple H/Jericho should have gone last. Like I said in the roundtable, I'm a traditionalist who thinks generally that The World title match should go on last but nobody will deny that Rock/Hogan was built up way better and was the focus of more of the attention in the weeks leading up to it. So in that sense, yeah, you're probably right.

 

I just think if Triple H/Jericho had been built up better with Triple H coming for revenge on Jericho for almost ending his career instead of feuding over a dog's leg getting run over and Jericho being Stephanie's chickenshit wimp lackey then absolutely nobody would be complaining about it going on last over Rock/Hogan. There were several more higher profile matches than Angle/Brock at XIX but nobody complained about that going on last because it was built up well and people generally cared about that feud.

[Molotov The Bear 0]

Rey’s outfit is pretty awful. He looks like Daredevil.

 

Uh, that was the point? And say what you want about the match itself (which was pretty much a letdown from what could've happened with more time) but Rey's Daredevil outfit was one of the coolest things about that show for me.

[bob_barron 0]

I know people who left X-8 after Rock v. Hogan. It was all they wanted to see. All my friends left after Rock v. Hogan too.

 

I agree that if HHH v. Jericho didn't involve a dog, maybe it should've gone on last but still, Rock v. Hogan is a match of the century. JR going into JR hyperbole mode for HHH v. Jericho was hilarious since the crowd was dead

[Molotov The Bear 0]

the 'Wreslemania purist' in me agress with KKC/HTQ/everyone else that agreed in that the World/WWE Title match has to go on last' assessment, however the 'god HHH/Jericho is FUCKING AWFUL AND NEEDS TO FUCKING DIE ALREADY' in me agrees with the fact that Rock/Hogan shoulda gone last.

 

...It's a hard act to agree with.

 

[King Kamala 0]

See, the thing is, the match itself isn't all that bad. Workrate-wise, it's undoubtedly way better than Rock-Hogan. Not as good as their previous efforts but a solid ***-***1/2 affair. It's just the stupid feud that preceded it and the dead crowd just absolutely kill it.

[bob_barron 0]

The match is decent, but watching 68,000 people sit on their hands while TRIPLE H'S CAREER COULD END IN AN INSTANT BAH GAWD just kills it.

 

Watching some of Rock v. Hogan again today, everything from the first Rock Bottom to the end is perfection. That's what wrestling is all about.

[BUTT 0]

There's something about Rock-Hogan not going last that makes me like it more. I'm a mark for oddly-sequenced PPV shows. Like Beach Blast '92!

[Molotov The Bear 0]

See, the thing is, the match itself isn't all that bad. Workrate-wise, it's undoubtedly way better than Rock-Hogan. Not as good as their previous efforts but a solid ***-***1/2 affair. It's just the stupid feud that preceded it and the dead crowd just absolutely kill it.

 

Oh, the match itself isn't horrible, but the story leading upto the match...

 

[ChrisMWaters 0]

See, the thing is, the match itself isn't all that bad. Workrate-wise, it's undoubtedly way better than Rock-Hogan. Not as good as their previous efforts but a solid ***-***1/2 affair. It's just the stupid feud that preceded it and the dead crowd just absolutely kill it.

 

Oh, the match itself isn't horrible, but the story leading upto the match...

Hence why, when they did the recap, they did it with that music video insted of having any voice for it.

[cabbageboy 0]

Thoughts:

 

WM 2000: I detested this show at the time and have zero desire to go back and watch. Most of the matches are misfires and wastes of talent, just 3 and 4 ways all over the card. Angle lost two belts without being pinned. HHH retained in the main event with another Vince heel turn, which never made much sense. There are reasons why I think Chris Kreski's booking is vastly overrated, and this show is one of them. The only really good thing here is the ladder tag match, but that was dwarfed by the TLC matches.

 

WM X-7: Awesome show, one of the best PPVs ever. On paper it looked like it would be one of the best shows and it was. Rock/Austin II, HHH/UT, TLC, Angle/Benoit, Vince/Shane....all of this stuff is a tremendous amount of fun. 2001 > 2000 even with the Invasion angle being screwy.

 

WM X-8: What the hell, I like this show. Rock/Hogan was a blast at the time and surprisingly holds up well on repeat viewings. Could care less about the main event, but let's not kid ourselves....no one thought Jericho was winning. Flair/UT was a fun brawl type match, not sure why it's being hated on here. Also like RVD/Regal, certainly a ton better than the various Edge/Regal turds in the IC division before it.

 

WM XIX: This is a curious show. The wrestling is pretty good throughout, but I never cared much for the booking leading up to it and most of the feuds. Vince/Hogan is a silly and fun brawl but it means nothing really. Lesnar/Angle is okay but I never cared for these guys feuding regardless of who was heel or face. HHH/Booker mostly buries Booker, while Jericho/HBK should have seen Jericho go over.

 

WM XX: Very good show, only its overlength keeps it from being truly a great PPV. Just too many tag guys and the aimless women's hair match. But the title matches? Oh yeah. Eddie/Angle is tremendous fun and has a great finish. The main event 3 way is a total classic even after Benoit did what he did. Lesnar/Goldberg is hilarious fun on its own deranged level.

[Angle-plex 0]

I'd argue that Rock/Hogan actual wrestling match than Jericho/Triple H. Hogan busts out some cool moves (when he's a heel, he actually add some moves to his arsenal). As bob said everything after the first rock bottom is gold, and everything before that is pretty good too.

[Boner Kawanger 0]

I could watch Hogan/Rock all day. I can watch technical exhibitions, but the bottom line when it comes to me and professional wrestling is the theatricality and storytelling aspects. The X-8 match is just that. Luckily, I've never seen the rematch, so nothing can sully it for me. Hell, Hogan/Warrior is one of my all time favorite matches. Say what you will about Hogan, but he gets it.

 

Oh, and Jericho/HHH is pretty much a Raw match. Ironic because I like their classic Raw match better. It's far more memorable. Still, I'm glad that one of my favorite wrestlers got to main event at least one Mania (like it will ever happen again).

[King Kamala 0]

WM X-8: What the hell, I like this show. Rock/Hogan was a blast at the time and surprisingly holds up well on repeat viewings. Could care less about the main event, but let's not kid ourselves....no one thought Jericho was winning. Flair/UT was a fun brawl type match, not sure why it's being hated on here. Also like RVD/Regal, certainly a ton better than the various Edge/Regal turds in the IC division before it.

 

Really? The only one in the chat who hated on that match was HTQ...who I admit really hated on it. I'd like to see his argument on why its a negative star match. I personally thought it was one of the more entertaining matches of the evening. Though I hated how Flair basically looked like a bitch during that whole feud. I would have had him go over in a rematch at Backlash or something.

 

Question for everybody; What star rating would you give Hogan-Rock? Personally, my opinion has always been its a ** match (which about as good as you're going to get with '00s Hogan) in terms of workrate but in terms of atmosphere, it's *****. So I go right in the middle with ***1/2, which is the same rating I'd give Hogan-Warrior.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

WM X-8: What the hell, I like this show. Rock/Hogan was a blast at the time and surprisingly holds up well on repeat viewings. Could care less about the main event, but let's not kid ourselves....no one thought Jericho was winning. Flair/UT was a fun brawl type match, not sure why it's being hated on here. Also like RVD/Regal, certainly a ton better than the various Edge/Regal turds in the IC division before it.

 

Really? The only one in the chat who hated on that match was HTQ...who I admit really hated on it. I'd like to see his argument on why its a negative star match.

I've only seen the match once, having hated it so much that I had less than no interest in watching it again. I hated it for a variety of reasons, some invoking more vitriol than others. First, Flair's offense just wasn't credible in any way. His offense was almost entirely chops, punches and kicks, and with Flair the size and age he is, against Undertaker the size he is, it just wasn't believable. It would be one thing of it was all stiff and laid in hard, but it was typical Flair offense and that just isn't credible against Undertaker. Second, and this might have been because of the first reason or simply because he wasn't feeling it, but Undertaker wasn't selling much in that match. No matter what Flair did, it never seemed like Undertaker was hurt, was on defense or was in any danger of getting beaten. It was as if he was just letting Flair do his thing and just taking it without putting it over. Third, the match was so slow and wrestled at a terribly unexciting pace. It felt like it was at least thirty minutes that I was surprised to find out it actually eighteen minutes, which was far too long as it is for a match between these two. Fourth, and you hated this too, but Flair was made into a total bitch, both in the storyline and this match. Undertaker punked Flair out for almost the entire feud, punks him out for most of the match by selling almost nothing and then pins him clean. I wanted Flair to win, because Undertaker had taken almost the whole feud and you were dying for Flair to get revenge, but no. And while I could have tolerated Undertaker winning had the match been more competitive in some fashion, any fashion, the fact that Undertaker dominated the entire feud, match and finish, while playing Superman almost all the way, just totally turned me off this wretched affair. As I recall, I went with minus three stars, and recapping it as I have, I feel I was far too generous.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

2000: I must be alone in actually liking it. Even at the time I liked it. TLC 0 is, IMO, the best of the wars between the three teams (since it seemed that every other match was just a repeat of the spots in this one), and still has the more popular visual (Jeff Hardy coming off of the ladder with the Swanton to put Bubba Ray through a table in the aisle) of all of the TLC matches. Angle/Benoit/Jericho was solid booking, as it got the two midcard belts off of Angle and onto others without him losing credibility as he was set for a push towards the main event later in the year. And the main event? I never minded it. In hindsight, Foley ruining his retirement was dumb, and definitely set forth his ruining of his legacy for years to come, but really? HHH retaining added to it, in my eyes. Having the face win each and every WM in the main was too predictable. So now you have a top heel who can work his ass off and needs just that little nudge into true superstardom...so why not let him be the first heel to walk out of WM with a win in the main event? I didn't mind it then (huge HHH mark until the return in '02), and I still don't mind it too much now. The rest of the card was average at best, and totally not worthy of being WrestleMania.

 

X7: I can't add anything new. Top-to-bottom best WM ever, and definitely in the running for best PPV ever (I would say Vengeance '03 and maybe Heat Wave '98 could give it some stiff competition, but X7 would likely win over them). Even the resultant Austin heel turn (which was still VERY entertaining) started off decent enough, but I really think that the Austin/Rock main was just pure icing on the cake compared to Angle/Benoit, TLC 2, HHH/'Taker, and even the Kane/Raven/Big Show 3-way. Wonderful show.

 

X8: Never cared for it. I dug RVD/Regal, oddly enough, primarily due to Regal busting out the half-nelson suplex and RVD eating it head-first like a fucking champ. HATED HATED HATED HHH/Jericho, for both the feud (before and after WM) and the match itself being all about fellating HHH's ego. Jericho looked like a chump, which wasn't how he was booked in the years prior, and Rock/Hogan was a fun match. At the time? I hated Hogan. Never really liked him much. And I didn't care for the Rock in the ring unless he had Austin or HHH to bust his ass with. So, overall? Bland WM, and one I don't care if I ever see again. 1 match show, which a WM should never be, and that 1 match is a favorite amongst others more than it is of mine.

 

19: HHH was in full-on suck mode. Solid match, that HHH/Booker, until the bullshit finish. Even having Book win by DQ or count-out, seeing HHH retain but lose, would have been better, but noooooo...HHH felt that the planned title switches later in the year would ruin the credibility of the WHT (which was just put into place about 6-7 months earlier), so Book goes on to lose the one feud he 100% should've won that year. Bullshit. Solid Angle/Lesnar that would have been among the greatest WM main's of all-time had Lesnar not botched the SSP, but even with it? It's still a tight match. Flair/'Taker was meh aside from AA showing up to nail 'Taker with the spinebuster. HBK/Jericho should have seen Jericho reversing that roll-up into one of his own, or reversing it into the Walls to make HBK tap, but I think Jericho's made up for it by essentially owning HBK during their amazing feud last year. And...I don't remember any other matches off the top of my head.

 

20: Oh man...like X7, everything that can be said has been. Only thing I didn't like was the ending to Angle/Guerrero. Was it original? Yes, of course it was. Did it fit the story of the match? Perfectly. Did it even fit the characters of both men? Indubitably. But it's WrestleMania. Guerrero's first (and only) as WWE champion, and his first true chance at having a classic WM match. And it ends with a roll-up. Sorry, but to blow-off a feud, even one based around whether or not one guy could outsmart the other? A roll-up finish is bullshit. If the finish were similar, with Eddie's loosened boot letting him slip out of the Anklelock and nail Angle with something to lead-up to the Frog Splash I would love it, but the fucking roll-up? Dumb dumb dumb dumb. Never agreed with it. Main event is near-perfect, though, with all 3 busting their fucking asses, and Benoit going over HUUUUUGE. 'Taker's return to the Deadman was memorable, even if the match was a minute of Kane being jobbed to the man who had to pull out all stops to barely beat him 6 years earlier, but I'm having the same problem of just not remembering most of the rest of the show. Jericho/Christian was a very good match, easily ***1/2-****, and Goldberg/Lesnar is worth watching for the crowd reaction, but...no TLC, a year or two before MitB, and the same roster, overall, that had been there for a few years by this point.