I post on TSM and all I got was this lousy blog.

The thing that bothers me most are the "you fucked up" chants, as it reeks of smarkiness and really ruins the atmosphere of the match. With that being said, I give ROH a break because since April 2004, they've produced more high quality matches that any other promotion in the world. Even if I get greatly annoyed with some of the stuff on the undercard..

"You fucked up" falls under the same category that I'm talking about. Fans have forgotten what their purpose is. ROH fans go to ROH to see good matches, not to see feuds or storylines. Actually, maybe the fans *do* know their purpose, it's ROH that has forgotten. Cause ROH doesn't really do feuds or storylines, their objective is to put on good matches. So you don't really see fans cheering or booing genuinely for their favourites, you hear them chanting in relation to the match quality. "You fucked up" is to reference a mistake and is a criticism of the match, while "Thank you" is the opposite (both equally annoying to me). I don't really think it's appropriate for the crowd to chant either, the crowd should react to the story of the match and particular spots. But where's the fun in that? You're not part of the show, then. You won't be able to get over. And if you can't leave the show thinking how great you were, then why did you go in the first place??

Bitching about the fans, this sounds like a post at the ROH Message Board.

 

No one has chanted You Fucked Up in forever.

 

ROH DOES do feuds and storylines. Where have you been Rudo?

 

Punk v. Rave

Aries v. Shelley

Embassy v. Gen Next

Samoe Joe/Lethal v. Rottweilers

Punk v. Gibson

 

I don't see anything wrong with chants like "Thank you" or "Welcome back". The bottom line is, wrestling is predetermined and the storylines are fake. The ROH fans get into the matches and storylines regardless, but when all is said and done, they still appreciate the wrestlers themselves, whether they're supposed to be faces or heel. Chanting "thank you" to a heel CM Punk on his last night isn't a problem. The real problem is when the fans blatantly ignore the face/heel dynamics during the course of a storyline and cheer the heel anyway, ala Homicide. But really, that's not just restricted to ROH fans. I seem to recall Steve Austin and The Rock being cheered by WWE fans when they were trying to heel it up.

Bitching about the fans, this sounds like a post at the ROH Message Board.

 

No one has chanted You Fucked Up in forever.

 

ROH DOES do feuds and storylines. Where have you been Rudo?

 

Punk v. Rave

Aries v. Shelley

Embassy v. Gen Next

Samoe Joe/Lethal v. Rottweilers

Punk v. Gibson

 

But do people go to the shows FOR the feuds and storylines? Or do they go for the "good matches"?

I don't see anything wrong with chants like "Thank you" or "Welcome back".

 

Isn't it implied that by cheering loudly, you are saying "thank you" or "welcome back"? You don't hear crowds chant "Thank you" at any sporting event, or after any live theatre. But then again, those crowds understand their roles at the event while ROH fans think they ARE the event. Actually, those crowds don't even know they have a role, while ROH fans are so into themselves that they think they are relevant. That ROH fans find the need to bring up all the shit they chanted at the event certainly is a problem. At least to me it is. It's fucking annoying.

The bottom line is, wrestling is predetermined and the storylines are fake.

 

So? It's called suspension of disbelief. People are able to do it with television, film, and theatre. People take guys hitting tiny balls with sticks of wood seriously. It's not necessarily difficult to get people "into" things. Yet Pro Wrestling, especially on an indy level, can't do it. Is it because the fans are "smart" to it?? I don't think that's the real reason - people are able to watch movies and know everything about the actor, and still laugh and cry and be emotionally involved despite being -what would be called in wrestling- "smart" to it. Yet wrestling/ROH fans would rather chant some silly shit than watch a match intently.

 

The ROH fans get into the matches and storylines regardless, but when all is said and done, they still appreciate the wrestlers themselves, whether they're supposed to be faces or heel.

 

From what I have seen, ROH fans aren't nearly "into" the matches as they like to appear to be. You look and listen to crowd heat at other events - Hogan/Andre, Kobashi/Kikuchi vs. Furnas/Kroffat - and its another level of interest. These fans aren't conscious of what they are doing - they are too busy experiencing it. ROH fans aren't that way (I generalize ROH fans, I am sure there are a few that I wouldn't want to punch in the liver).

 

Chanting "thank you" to a heel CM Punk on his last night isn't a problem.

 

I think it is. It reeks of self-importance.

 

The real problem is when the fans blatantly ignore the face/heel dynamics during the course of a storyline and cheer the heel anyway, ala Homicide. But really, that's not just restricted to ROH fans. I seem to recall Steve Austin and The Rock being cheered by WWE fans when they were trying to heel it up.

 

Nothing wrong with that, to me. Cheering heels because you genuinely enjoy the character is fine. It's up to the wrestler and promotion to adapt. I think a big part of the sincerity of the crowd is lost in ROH.

ROH earned its rep on the good wrestling and used it to draw people in with feuds. Now all the matches are usually based on storyline and feuds.

 

Take the Punk v. Rave feud, that helped them draw huge numbers in Chicago for the blowoff.

 

And the main selling point of 12/3 looks to be the War Games.

 

CM Punk wasn't a heel his last night in ROH, and fans do suspend beliefs. You should see the Embassy.

I rarely _ever_ hear anyone report on or talk about how good a feud is when it comes to ROH, so I find that very hard to believe. Punk drawing in Chicago? Get OUTTA here. Saying War Games is the selling point of a show is proving my point exactly. Any buzz surrounding that match won't be "I can't wait for this to blow off", it's going to be "That match is going to be crazy! ROH~! WAR GAMES! I'M GONNA START A FOUR HORSEMEN CHANT!"

 

ROH Fans don't suspend disbelief. They wouldn't do and chant the shit they do if they did.

Yes they do.

 

Watch Punk v. Rave in the steel cage match. Or some stuff from the Lethal/Joe v. Rotts feud, Punk v. Aries. ROH fans can suspend their disbelief.

 

And people have been raving about feuds in ROH since 2003 since the Raven-Punk feud.

 

I don't understand how can you rip on the fanbase when you've never been to a show. And at the ROH Board, after every show there's always a thread where people complain about the behaviour of the fans and it gets annoying.

 

Why let other people affect your enjoyment of a show? I mean I go to ROH shows to slap the wrestler's hand, go crazy for Nigel, call Lacey a whore, see my friends and see some good wrestling. Most ROH fans go to the show just to have a good time and good wrestling. Not with some grand notion of how to put themselves over.

ROH didn't create it, but they're as much to blame as anyone for further perpetrating the Great Divide between good matches and good storylines. There's this really bizarre outlook I see all the time that the two are mutually exclusive or diametrically opposed, or that a promotion focusing on wrestling can't possibly have good storylines to drive that wrestling. Content is valued over presentation when honestly, good pro wrestling places a much higher premium on presentation than content. ROH has no clue how to contextualize their own booking, even when they do something right. I blame Paul Heyman for starting the trend of providing a "good match" on every ECW undercard that wasn't intended to connect with an audience. I blame Vince Russo for burning out the wrestling audience of the modern era on so many bad angles and bad storylines that a small group of fans somehow came to the conclusion that wrestling wouldn't be so bad if angles didn't exist at all. I blame Eric Bischoff for destroying an empire and giving us a wrestling scene where Heartless Gymnastics Disguised As Wrestling is considered a high standard by a group of egomaniacal fans who don't know as much as they think they do. And I blame Vince McMahon for arrogantly attempting to tweak the moral structure of his most loyal supporters when he should be focused on selling his next pay-per-view. It's a combination of egos, injuries, back scratching, life destruction, greed and Corporate America that put the current wrestling scene in the lifeless hellhole where it currently resides, and until people ask tough questions and truly grasp how we got here in the first place, getting out of that hellhole will remain impossible.

I rarely _ever_ hear anyone report on or talk about how good a feud is when it comes to ROH, so I find that very hard to believe.

 

I've listed a bunch of big ROH feuds they've had. In 2002-2003 they did have matches that existed just for people to clap at spots and all that, but they've evolved.

 

Punk drawing in Chicago?  Get OUTTA here. 

 

The show drew because people wanted to see Punk kick Rave's ass in the cage match, since last time they met in Chicago, Rave blinded him and beat up his girlfriend.

 

Saying War Games is the selling point of a show is proving my point exactly.  Any buzz surrounding that match won't be "I can't wait for this to blow off", it's going to be "That match is going to be crazy! ROH~! WAR GAMES!  I'M GONNA START A FOUR HORSEMEN CHANT!"

 

No, people want to see The Embassy get their asses kicked, and see Strong and Aries kick it. Isn't that wrestling? And no, no one would start a Four Horsemen chant. Again Rudo, you don't go to the shows. I agree the dueling chants are sometimes lame, and I hate people who cheer Cide, but you generalising a whole fanbase.

 

ROH Fans don't suspend disbelief. They wouldn't do and chant the shit they do if they did.

What about Canadian fans at WWE shows? "You screwed Bret!" chants, "TWOOOO!", doing the wave, cheering every Canadian regardless of heel/face roles. A lot of the stuff you say about ROH fans could be said for Canadian WWE fans.

 

(note: my ROH viewing doesn't extend beyond a comp of James Gibson's matches in the company).

RRR has some good points regarding the ROH fans and Loss has about as perfect a take as you'll get, but Spiff does make case about WWE Canadian fans basically doing a lot of what we are criticizing the ROH fans for (although Canadian fans aren't the complaint, it's ROH fans)

 

Surprised TNA fans weren't mentioned because they are marks for themselves as well.

What about Canadian fans at WWE shows?  "You screwed Bret!" chants, "TWOOOO!", doing the wave, cheering every Canadian regardless of heel/face roles.  A lot of the stuff you say about ROH fans could be said for Canadian WWE fans.

 

(note: my ROH viewing doesn't extend beyond a comp of James Gibson's matches in the company).

 

I think it's a given that the WWF live crowd is the most obnoxious by far

Canadian fans don't do it to "get over" with the wrestlers though. We do it cause we're asses and tend to want to stray from the (american) norm.

 

I'll take a WWE crowd over a ROH crowd any day. Then again, I hate wrestling fans, in general. WWE tends to have an overly markish crowd of guys who bring belts to the right. ROH has guys who chant "Thank You". Both are extremes that I don't really like to be around.

Yes they do.

 

No they don't

 

Watch Punk v. Rave in the steel cage match. Or some stuff from the Lethal/Joe v. Rotts feud, Punk v. Aries. ROH fans can suspend their disbelief.

 

Explain to me how they suspend their disbelief. Really. Don't make me watch ROH. I just can't.

 

And people have been raving about feuds in ROH since 2003 since the Raven-Punk feud.

 

I haven't heard/read it. Anything I've read about good "feuds" were because of the _matches_ involved in the feuds rather than any stories being told. Actually, wait a sec. Raven or Dreamer pouring beer down Punks throat was part of that angle, I remember that. Yeah, that's about it, actually. My point still stands - ROH fans don't watch ROH for the feuds. They watch for more smarkish reasons like "match quality", and their emotional involvement (as Loss mentioned) is kept to a bare minimum. This leads to more "chants" than "cheers".

 

 

I don't understand how can you rip on the fanbase when you've never been to a show. And at the ROH Board, after every show there's always a thread where people complain about the behaviour of the fans and it gets annoying.

 

I've been to indies before, one in particular was comprised of many folk who would (and have) go to ROH shows. They did the dueling chants. Some decided to chant both names at the same time. Think about that. Not very genuine. Besides, not actually being in the crowd doesn't disqualify me from commenting on them, or basing an opinion on them, or being absolutely annoyed by them. The fans (YOU, Bob) are annoying.

 

Why let other people affect your enjoyment of a show?

 

Because if sound wasn't an important part of the show, they wouldn't mic the rings, or have announcers. But they do, so it is. I can't just watch a show in silence, Bob. Besides, the crowds reaction should be dictated by the wrestlers. If the crowd is going out on their own and coming up with several retarded chants that have nothing to do with whats going on in the ring, then whats going on in the ring can't be that good, now can it?

 

I mean I go to ROH shows to slap the wrestler's hand, go crazy for Nigel, call Lacey a whore, see my friends and see some good wrestling. Most ROH fans go to the show just to have a good time and good wrestling. Not with some grand notion of how to put themselves over.

 

And not with the notion of storylines and feuds, it seems from you discription

 

Lemme post something.

 

Kobashi vs Joe

Greatest. Match. Ever. First, the crowd was absolutely on fire for this match. Kobashi was getting a lot of cheers and would get the fans on their feet by just looking at them and hulking up. I have never seen Joe so intense for this match. He came up with Lethal as his second/assistant. Match starts with Joe slapping Kobashi and Kobashi returning the favor. The first Kobashi chop gets the fans on their feet. Kobashi is thrown outside and Joe hits him with a baseball slide (maybe i dont remember well) and hits a suicide dive onto him for "Holy ****" chants. Goes back inside for some insane stiff chopping which gets the electric crowd on their feet. It goes back outside where Joe hits an ole ole kick. However, Kobashi avoids the second one and instead hits a move of his own which received a huge pop but I couldn't see. Kobashi DDTs Joe on the floor. Goes back inside for more chopping. Joe eventually gets control after a Kobashi abdominal stretch and starts locking on submission holds. Eventually Joe reverses a Kobashi suplex into a suplex of his own. Joe places him on the turnbuckle and hits him with a Muscle Buster! Crowd is going wild for only a two count. Joe hits a power bomb and flows into an STF. Kobashi almost gets the ropes but Joe in a crossface holds back his arm! Kobashi finally gets to the ropes. Kobashi eventually regains control and hits joe in the corner with a bunch of chops, leading to a huge pop. Kobashi then hits not one but two Half Nelson Suplexes! Joe kicks out of a couple of pins but then is met with a sleeper into a sleeper suplex! There might have been some more moves afterwards but eventually Kobashi gets pumped up and hits Joe with a crazy lariat for the win. Crowd goes nuts and chants ROH!

 

Look at the self-importance. NINE references to the crowd in this. And, apparently, the match was SO great that the FIRST thing this guy had to say about it was something about THE FANS. Was the ECW audience even this absorbed into being ECW fans? Well, they *did* chant "ECW"...

What do you expect? ROH is an elitist promotion for elitist people. They bill themselves as being more about athleticism and wrestling than WWE, and what that really means is "if you watch us it means you're more sophisticated and mature than WWE fans." It's no wonder that the fans are more than a little full of themselves.

Explain to me how they suspend their disbelief.  Really.  Don't make me watch ROH.  I just can't

 

Booing Austin Aries whenever he did anything during his match against Punk, and cheering Punk for the same. Isn't that suspending disbelief?

 

Ditto the Embassy. The fans for the most part HATE Jimmy Rave.

 

Another match is Strong v. Punk from Escape from New York. The crowd was begging for Strong to chop the shit out of Punk and take the title.

 

The biggest example is Jimmy Rave though, since people really hate the guy. Whenever I see him walking around, I ignore him, since I do hate the guy.

 

And people have been raving about feuds in ROH since 2003 since the Raven-Punk feud.

 

I haven't heard/read it.  Anything I've read about good "feuds" were because of the matches involved in the feuds rather than any stories being told.  Actually, wait a sec.  Raven or Dreamer pouring beer down Punks throat was part of that angle, I remember that.  Yeah, that's about it, actually. My point still stands - ROH fans don't watch ROH for the feuds.  They watch for more smarkish reasons like "match quality", and their emotional involvement (as Loss mentioned) is kept to a bare minimum.  This leads to more "chants" than "cheers".

 

I really don't know what you're trying to argue here. ROH hooked its fanbase on doing indy dream matches for the first little bit. That was starting to get stale, so during their Reborn process, the booking philosophy changed a bit and now most of the matches on the show usually have a lot of backstory and further the feuds.

 

I still don't see what the problem is with fans watching a show because they will get a good in-ring product. ROH fans DO get emotionally involved in matches. Aries v. Joe from Final Battle is another example.

 

I don't understand how can you rip on the fanbase when you've never been to a show. And at the ROH Board, after every show there's always a thread where people complain about the behaviour of the fans and it gets annoying.

 

I've been to indies before, one in particular was comprised of many folk who would (and have) go to ROH shows.  They did the dueling chants.  Some decided to chant both names at the same time.  Think about that.  Not very genuine.  Besides, not actually being in the crowd doesn't disqualify me from commenting on them, or basing an opinion on them, or being absolutely annoyed by them.  The fans (YOU, Bob) are annoying.

 

The dueling chants can be lame, but I'll never understand people in the ROH fanbase who just get so anal about what the crowd is doing and what they're chanting, and can't just enjoy the show and have a good time. I mean seriously, it's just wrestling. I mean OMG half the fans are chanting for one guy, the other half are chanting for the other guy, let go and have fun.

 

And at Escape from New York, the chants for Homicide and Lethal were legit, because fans were emotionally involved in the Lethal v. Rotts feud.

 

Because if sound wasn't an important part of the show, they wouldn't mic the rings, or have announcers.  But they do, so it is.  I can't just watch a show in silence, Bob.  Besides, the crowds reaction should be dictated by the wrestlers.  If the crowd is going out on their own and coming up with several retarded chants that have nothing to do with whats going on in the ring, then whats going on in the ring can't be that good, now can it?

 

You're generalising again. Not every match has chants and the fans trying to put themselves over. The wrestlers do get the crowd into their matches, just watch any of the big ROH matches with guys like Homicide, Punk, Joe, Gibson, Aries, etc.

 

I mean I go to ROH shows to slap the wrestler's hand, go crazy for Nigel, call Lacey a whore, see my friends and see some good wrestling. Most ROH fans go to the show just to have a good time and good wrestling. Not with some grand notion of how to put themselves over.

 

And not with the notion of storylines and feuds, it seems from you discription

 

I'll go to any ROH show if its in my area and I'm home for it because I like the product they put out. And I do get emotionally invested in the feuds. I mean I get into the big storylines and usually end up booing the heels like mad, and going crazy for the faces. Unless it's Nigel.

 

 

Kobashi vs Joe

Greatest. Match. Ever. First, the crowd was absolutely on fire for this match. Kobashi was getting a lot of cheers and would get the fans on their feet by just looking at them and hulking up. I have never seen Joe so intense for this match. He came up with Lethal as his second/assistant. Match starts with Joe slapping Kobashi and Kobashi returning the favor. The first Kobashi chop gets the fans on their feet. Kobashi is thrown outside and Joe hits him with a baseball slide (maybe i dont remember well) and hits a suicide dive onto him for "Holy ****" chants. Goes back inside for some insane stiff chopping which gets the electric crowd on their feet. It goes back outside where Joe hits an ole ole kick. However, Kobashi avoids the second one and instead hits a move of his own which received a huge pop but I couldn't see. Kobashi DDTs Joe on the floor. Goes back inside for more chopping. Joe eventually gets control after a Kobashi abdominal stretch and starts locking on submission holds. Eventually Joe reverses a Kobashi suplex into a suplex of his own. Joe places him on the turnbuckle and hits him with a Muscle Buster! Crowd is going wild for only a two count. Joe hits a power bomb and flows into an STF. Kobashi almost gets the ropes but Joe in a crossface holds back his arm! Kobashi finally gets to the ropes. Kobashi eventually regains control and hits joe in the corner with a bunch of chops, leading to a huge pop. Kobashi then hits not one but two Half Nelson Suplexes! Joe kicks out of a couple of pins but then is met with a sleeper into a sleeper suplex! There might have been some more moves afterwards but eventually Kobashi gets pumped up and hits Joe with a crazy lariat for the win. Crowd goes nuts and chants ROH!

 

Look at the self-importance. NINE references to the crowd in this. And, apparently, the match was SO great that the FIRST thing this guy had to say about it was something about THE FANS. Was the ECW audience even this absorbed into being ECW fans? Well, they *did* chant "ECW"...

 

 

Okay, so the crowd was into Kobashi v. Joe, which apparently was the best match in ROH history. I fail to see the problem.

I don't think RRR is going to change his mind, no matter how great the argument you make. For whatever reason, he's set his mind on what he thinks ROH is, and I don't see anything changing that mindset.

Yea I know, I have to do my duty as an ROHBot. Even though I did NOTG2 sucked ass.

 

What do you think of the whole argument and ROH Fans HTQ?

What do you think of the whole argument and ROH Fans HTQ?

I think you're both right, to a point.

 

To a certain level, some ROH fans do try and get themselves over at the expense of the matches or whatever else is going on. But at the top level, in the biggest and most important matches, the ROH fans do stop that nonsense and they make a concerted effort to get as into the match as they possibly can. If someone disputes that, go watch Aries beating Joe for the ROH title, as that whole building was going beyond insane crazy when they realised they were going to see history made, which is a testament to how over to the crowd the booking made Aries, Joe and the ROH Title. That kind of reaction is something you cannot get out of people who, as RRR seems to think, are solely concerned with getting themselves over.

 

And I think picking holes in the live report of Kobashi vs. Joe is a little weak, because if you're talking about a show is like live, and the ME has the crowd going crazy, you are naturally going to bring that up and talk about it. If it was meant to be an unbiased and a more analytical report, it would be ok to pick it apart like that, but it isn't meant to be anything more than how one fan saw the show.

When it comes down to it, there was a word I used above that perfectly describes ROH - their fans, their announcers, their wrestlers - GENUINE. And ROH is not it. At all.

 

This is the exact same problem I have.

 

Saturday was my first real ROH experience (before that, I had only seen some matches that I downloaded), and yeah...my first impression was similar to Rudo's. The chants interfered with the matches a few times, and I did think that, at some points, the fans were more interested in coming up with "witty" things to chant than they were in the action in the ring. A few wrestlers had to stall a bit at the beginning of their matches, so they could wait for the chants to die down...it was pretty annoying. When the crowd was chanting, "Please come back!" at Gibson, he turned and gave us the "aw, shucks, you guys" shrug, but inside, I wondered if he was thinking, "could you guys just shut the hell up and let me wrestle?". The whole "standing up & clapping after every highspot" routine was pretty bad, too. You just get the feeling that they're trying to say, "look how appreciative and smart we are, as opposed to the ignorant WWE-loving peasants".

 

On the other hand, it's how they have fun at the shows, and it only really bugged me when it got in the way of my enjoying the matches. Plus, it wasn't everybody...just some loud, vocal fans, and I did think some of the chants & crowd reactions were amusing, especially in response to heelish stuff from McGuinness and Prince Nana. It was just overkill at times, and by the second-to-last match, I was pretty irritated (the crowd reaction to Kobashi/Joe was definitely genuine).

I'm with you on this one RRR.

 

I've tried watching RoH many times, all end in misrable failure. I usually end up getting bored, falling asleep, or just turning it off. Ring of Honor is a good example of a "one match card". It's ridiculous. I end up fast forwarding to the "great" match, watch it, and then ask myself why I spent the money for a tape or DVD that has only one good match on it, and that I'll probably never watch it again.

 

Also, the announcing is horrible. The one announcer sounds bored out of his mind, he's so dull and boring sounding. At least though, he;s not like the CZW announcers "SOMEBODY CALL 9....1.....1 !!!!!!!" Lame.