NYU

Well, at least our Intercontinental Champion looks strong going into his title loss on Sunday. WWE just planning ahead.

then do it on TV and not for 35 bucks on PPV. Er.....Television shows are used to set up storylines most of the time. Pay-Per-Views are used for the actual payoff. The Jericho/Trish/Christian/Lita rectangle is a storyline that has been set up on television. It's a storyline that will MOST LIKELY be paid off on a PPV, where people paid $35 to see it.

God damn people, think ahead. This match has a point !! Christian's going to start beating up Trish and Lita, while Jericho doesn't have his heart in it. Eventually, he stops Christian and starts helping Trish out. Christian gets angry, attacks Jericho, Jericho fights back, Trish realizes that Jericho DOES care for her, and Lita continues to look like a dog. This isn't going to be a 2 men vs. 2 women match. It's probably going to unite Jericho/Trish, and start a Jericho/Christian feud. Just look ahead a little instead of bitching without thinking.

No, it's a midseason replacement. Well, thanks for ruining my night. Oliver Beene is a cheap copy of the Wonder Years.......only without actually being, you know, good.

Kaz will be next Met of import Closing big deal for Little Matsui By SAM BORDEN and BILL MADDEN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITERS The Mets have been sitting quietly in Queens this fall, watching the crosstown team make plenty of moves. Now it appears they are ready to make some noise of their own. Multiple baseball sources told the Daily News the Mets are on the verge of landing shortstop Kazuo Matsui, the superstar Japanese free agent. The Mets are offering Matsui (no relation to Hideki) a three-year contract worth about $7 million a season, plus incentives. An announcement could come within the next few days. Matsui's agent, Arn Tellem, has been talking with several other high-payroll teams in hopes of drumming up Matsui's value, but all indications are that it's a two-horse race for the 28-year-old - with the Mets far ahead. "It looks like it's just the Mets and Dodgers," said one baseball insider, "and the Dodgers can't go where the Mets can (financially)." The Mets have made second base their top priority this offseason, and signing Matsui would solve their problem up the middle. Jose Reyes dazzled at shortstop in his half-season with the Mets in 2003, but Mets executives talked with Reyes about moving to second while they were on a previously scheduled trip to the Dominican Republic this week. With Reyes on board, the door is open for Matsui. There was some concern about stunting Reyes' growth - John Franco said Thursday he wasn't sure how Reyes would react to a move - but Matsui is apparently too talented to pass up. "I trust our baseball people," Franco said. "To move Reyes, he (Matsui) must be a hell of a shortstop." Statistically, Matsui is exactly that. He hit .305 with 33 homers and 84 RBI in the Japanese Central League last season, and several scouts have raved about his range and instincts. A huge celebrity in Japan, Matsui shouldn't have any trouble adapting to the media crush in New York. His hair - which has been many colors, including orange and blue - was a frequent topic in the Japanese press and he is said to enjoy his stardom. As many as nine teams had preliminary interest in the switch-hitter, and Matsui told reporters two days ago that the field had been whittled to four. It's even smaller now. The Angels initially were serious about Matsui, but are now concentrating on adding pop at first base (possibly Rafael Palmeiro) and the outfield. They also are closely monitoring the ongoing talks between Texas and Boston about an Alex-Rodriguez-for-Manny-Ramirez swap, because that would be a precursor to Nomar Garciaparra landing in Anaheim. The Yankees were strong early contenders, and fully believed they could have brought a second Matsui to the Bronx - even though he would have had to switch to second base in deference to Derek Jeter. But with a big-money signing of Gary Sheffield set to be announced soon, an expensive bullpen overhaul nearly complete and the expected signings of Andy Pettitte and Javier Vazquez (to an extension), the Yanks feel they are almost tapped out. Even in George Steinbrenner's world, there's just no logic to investing $8 million more in a second baseman when the Bombers can leave Alfonso Soriano there. As for the Mariners, payroll constraints kept them from truly pursuing "Little Matsui," but it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway. Reports indicated that Matsui wasn't interested in playing in the shadow of Ichiro, and the Mariners are now looking at free agent shortstop Miguel Tejada, to whom they offered a three-year contract yesterday. The Mets, on the other hand, are focused squarely on Matsui. They made a run at Luis Castillo, but once he opted to return to the Marlins, the Mets turned their attentions to the spiky-haired shortstop from the Seibu Lions. Credit: NY Daily News --------------------------------------------- I have no complaints with this signing. Tejada would have been nice, but there's the possibility that, at this point, Tejada has peaked and his stats and defense will start to decrease. The Mets needed another infield player and Matsui is supposed to have good power and great fielding. There's always the question of whether or not the Japanese player can successfully adapt to the American style of baseball, but he should be fine......and of course, it's better than having Super Joe McEwing at second base, like he was at the end of the 2003 season. If this signing happens, the hole in the Infield will have been plugged up. Now all the Mets need is another power outfielder, a reliable starting pitcher (or two), and a GOOD CLOSER. No more of that Benitez or Franco shit. I would like to have a closer I can count on.

Those three guys were definitely names before Russo. The way I read it was "Nobody was a star except for Hart, HBK, and the Undertaker." Then, Russo took a whole bunch of relatively unknown wrestlers, or not too over in WWE, and made them into huge stars - Austin, Rock, HHH, Foley, etc. I also miss Russo because, with him writing Raw, every episode was a MUST-SEE. Something new or surprising would happen and, if you missed it, you might have trouble catching up the next week. Now, it's like.....yeah, you can miss it this week. It will be the same exact thing next Monday. Raw with Russo had a MUST SEE element to it, which has been missing for the last couple of years.

Years ago, I used to watch those Kids Choice Awards on Nickelodeon. One year, I watched it and realized how painfully awful it was, and knew I was too old to watch it. This award show is even more painfully awful than that. Maybe I'm a little suspicious, but I can't imagine teenage girls going crazy and screaming for "Halo" or "Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell"

YANKEES EXPECT A VASQUEZ VICTORY Close in on Expo righty but figure to get Nicked By SAM BORDEN & BILL MADDEN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITERS The essential pieces of the Yankees' offseason plan are simple: Re-sign Andy Pettitte, then bring in another front-line starting pitcher. That's where Javier Vazquez comes in. The Yanks and Expos last night had serious discussions about a trade that would bring the 27-year-old righty to the Bronx, and sources said the sides agreed on the players involved. A deal could be reached as early as today. Montreal will get first baseman Nick Johnson and outfielder Juan Rivera in exchange for Vazquez. The sticking point is said to be whether the Expos would grant the Yankees a 72-hour window to negotiate a contract extension with the pitcher, sources said. Vazquez can be a free agent after next season, and the Yankees are not interested in trading Johnson for a player they don't have locked up to a long-term contract. Minaya was said to be against granting the window (as the Diamondbacks did for the Red Sox in the Curt Schilling trade), but it does not figure to be a deal-breaker. There was some division among Yankees honchos over Vazquez, as some of the braintrust were pushing for the Yanks to instead sign free agent Bartolo Colon. Although that would not cost the Yankees any major-league players, there were serious concerns about Colon's conditioning, and many executives fear he wouldn't stay in shape if the Yankees gave him a long-term contract. Vazquez, on the other hand, is a young workhorse who struck out 241 and walked 51 in 230-2/3 innings last season. His stats (13-12, 3.24 ERA) are deceptive, as most scouts agree he is one of the league's top young arms. He threw four complete games in 2003 and opponents batted just .229 against him. He has thrown more than 210 innings each of the past four seasons. The origin of these talks stretches back to the GM meetings in Phoenix, when Brian Cashman and Minaya had several preliminary conversations. However, Minaya wasn't sure if he was going to be shopping Vazquez at that point because he did not have an idea of what his payroll was going to be for the coming season. Now Minaya is certain that he will have to move Vazquez, and he would like to do so quickly. One source said that, by trading Vazquez, Minaya is hoping that he will be able to retain star outfielder Vladimir Guerrero, who is a free agent. The Yankees already have several sluggers (and will soon add another in Gary Sheffield), but are facing a serious turnover in their starting rotation. Roger Clemens has retired and David Wells is a free agent coming off a back operation. They do have Mike Mussina, Jose Contreras, Jeff Weaver and Jon Lieber, but George Steinbrenner was determined to land a stud starter this winter. When the Red Sox traded for Schilling, it only heightened the Boss' desire. Kevin Millwood is the other big-name pitcher on the market, but the Yankees had only preliminary contact with his agent. It now appears that the Phillies will offer Millwood arbitration, since they have Eric Milton (whom they obtained yesterday in a trade with the Twins) as insurance. The Yankees inquired about Milton (whom they traded in the Chuck Knoblauch deal) but were turned off because he missed most of last year with a knee injury. That left Vazquez. Since the Yankees are considering moving Bernie Williams to DH next season, trading Johnson has become more palatable than in the past. The Yankees are better served to sign a backup to Jason Giambi - perhaps Rafael Palmeiro - than have a young player like Johnson strapped for at-bats. Originally published on December 4, 2003 Credit: New York Daily News ---------------------------------------------------------- . Yeah. The Yankees also thought trading for Jeff Weaver was a good move too.

The kip-up comeback routine popped the fans like crazy, and had a purpose in establishing that throughout the entire beating, Shawn Michaels wouldn't give up and that the Heartbreak Kid was back. It was a signature move of his, so it made his fans pop like crazy when they saw him do it, previously thinking that he couldn't. The fact that some continue to turn a blind eye to that is pretty fucking pathetic. Benoit broke his neck, and the fans knew it. Does that mean he shouldn't do his flying headbutt or his german suplexes, which SHOULD hurt his "forever-to-be-damaged" neck, yet pop the crowd? Keep in mind. His neck injuries have been established, and have been focused on in a match as a weakness. Does this mean his signature moves, which require the neck, should not be used at all? Or is there a double standard?

George Steinbrenner. Hopefully, I don't need much of an explanation there.

Replace RVD with Jericho and I'd be happy. Jericho could go to SD and have good matches with Benoit, Guerrero, Lesnar, etc... I don't really care to see RVD vs anyone on SD. Jericho's feuded with everyone on Raw anyway. RVD can tag with Shannon Moore for matches against Spanky & London or Bashem Brothers or TWGTT. I hope that was a joke.

Jones and Morgan PHYSICALLY COULD NOT DO the same match as Angle and Benoit. Jeff Hardy and Test COULD do the same crappy match as HHH and Shawn. You seemed to have missed the point of the already-weak analogy. You skipped over the whole "Hardy-Test didn't have the storyline, and the psychology, which made the match stand out as special." You just went straight for the rebuttal to the analogy. Ah, well. Anyway, don't be TOO sure Morgan/Jones couldn't pull it off if they try to do an exact model of the match. It might be possible if they spent enough time studying it. But anyway, fine. Spike Dudley and Randy Orton put on a match just like Angle/Benoit '03, which they physically COULD do. Now how much praise would that match get? People are lying if they say they could be unbiased about it.

Of course, Hardy and Test wouldn't have had the history with each other, and the story of whether or not one of them could go, though they suffered a back injury years ago, would be non-existant. This means that none of the emotion would be there, which is what made Michaels/HHH so special (and a damn good match, in my opinion) Pretty weak analogy there. If you took Angle/Benoit from Royal Rumble '03, and substituted it with Nathan Jones and Matt Morgan, would people still give it its due here? Of course not.

Rudo, that was a really good post. I can understand your point of view, but I just can't help finding it a little silly that American matches are still constantly being compared to Japanese matches. Admittedly, you know a LOT more about Japanese wrestling than I do, but from the matches that I have seen, the type of wrestling and the fans that watch it are different. I still stand by my opinion that Japanese fans are a lot more respectful of the matches themselves, and the psychology that goes in them, than American fans are. What works in Japan might not work in America, and vice-versa. I still have a problem with those that come into the WWE folder and bash a certain match, saying that a particular Japanese match did it so much better. Those Japanese wrestlers had a different crowd to deal with, different guidelines to abide by from the promoter, and probably a different story to tell. Yet, matches are continually being compared. The puro fan will name 2 Japanese wrestlers that mean shit to a WWE folder poster, then they'll have an argument, when that could have been easily avoided. To say that a match sucks because the selling wasn't up to par with a Japanese match is silly, and winds up causing more trouble than it's worth. I don't want to type much more on this subject. The WWE promotes Sports Entertainment. Japan promoted WRESTLING. A Japanese promoter can tell 2 wrestlers to go out there, bust balls, and have the greatest match of their lives in 30 minutes. On a PPV, Vince will send them out there for 15 minutes, give them specific spots to do, and sometimes order them not to overshadow a different match. If the guidelines to a match are so different, how can they be compared, considering the limits on the American one? My point: WWE wrestling should be discussed in the WWE folder. Puro wrestling should be discussed in the Puro folder. When you compare the two, especially to a fan who doesn't know TOO much about Japanese wrestling(like me), you're only asking for petty arguments, angry feelings, and dumb flames.

But how can you compare the two? If we have Chris Benoit and Kurt Angle facing each other in a submission match, can it REALLY be comparable to a constant high-spot match between two luchadores? Shawn Michaels and Triple H in a hardcore match. Can it REALLY be comparable to a match in Japan that was based on submissions? The puro fans here (Not just this thread, but many other) are the ones doing some of the comparing when it comes to offensive moves, defensive, counters, selling, etc. People would just be happier if they could accept a match for what it was, without comparing it to the Awesome, Life-Changing, Thrilling, Climactic Misawa-Kobashi match from whatever year.

I'm saying it's ridiculous and nearly impossible to compare the two in this day and age. If we look at the crowds....American fans want non-stop action. Selling and slow, methodical submission-based style matches mean shit to them for the most part. They want offensive moves and flashy spots, and they want it now. If they don't, the "Boring" chants come, like they did with Hardy/Christian last night. Meanwhile, the Japanese fans are entirely different. They appreciate the classic submission-style match and seem to actually kind of appreciate it a little more than the flashy, signature-style kind of matches that happen in America. The crowds dictate what kind of matches happen. How can you compare an American match to a Japanese match when they wrestle two DIFFERENT types of matches in front of two DIFFERENT types of crowds?! Puro may have had heavy american influence. But bring some of that to the common-WWE arena and watch it get shit all over on. What might be good for you would not be good for the majority, and not good for business. Selling constantly and realistically, without going on offense, might be good for you, other Puro fans, and the Japanese fans - but try that in America and you won't be able to block out the "Boring" chants. As for the HBK explanation, I'm done with that. If you didn't understand the complexity of it, go back and reread it.

Have you read the other posts in this thread? The story of the match can be taken different ways, depending on hurt Michaels back was supposed to be. If he was really supposed to be a walking cripple - how come he's wrestling every Raw now? Is it SO impossible to think that the WWE writers used a little psychology in Michaels' initial matches, showing his back was not as bad as he led people to believe, and the 4 years of rest and rehabbing did him good? But then again, the IWC didn't think up this kind of psychology, so surely it cannot be right. Michaels didn't sell the back as if he was dead, and lay in the ring like a beached whale for the entire match. Screw the enjoyment of the fans. MINUS 10 MILLION STARS!!!

Nobody here is bitching about puro. They're bitching about those that constantly bash WWE while comparing it to Puro. They're two ENTIRELY different styles of wrestling, in front of two ENTIRELY different types of crowds, in countries that are thousands of miles away from each other. Puro-fanatics refuse to realize this, and instead continue to focus on why puro is better. We get that this is their opinion, but they repeat it ad-nauseum until several people have to tell them to shut the fuck up. Not just in this topic but many more.

If this was Jeff, Lita wouldn't think it was.

Spike: And Vince, thanks to all those terrible bumps, I wound up losing feeling in my arm. Vince: Oh Spike, that's a horrible story. Just horrible. *Shannon Moore walks by* Shannon....listen, go out there and have a match with Nathan Jones. Talk with Stephanie, she'll tell you about the safe bumps I've planned for tonight's Smackdown. Shannon: Uh, sure Mr. MacMahon. *Match starts. Insane moonsault bump, followed by repeated SICK throws over the top rope* Vince: Spike, what a horrible....horrible.....1-2-HEGOTHIMNOHEDIDN'T! Oh, that Nathan Jones is a monster! ------------------------------------ .......Vince won't learn. He never does.

Yep. The same sledgehammer which Goldberg blocked with his temple, and didn't even flinch? 25 minutes work with various weapons etc. = nothing 2 shots with a hammer = cripple. Hmmmm.... To be fair, when Goldberg got hit on the head with the sledgehammer in the Elimination Chamber at SS '03, he was out cold and got pinned. He got up when he got hit in the chin with the hammer at Unforgiven, but that's because....well....Goldberg is a shithead. Yet, he did fall like a tree initially after getting hit with it. And a few minutes (not 25, since you're not including Shawn's offense) with various weapons = Shawn's back hurt, but not enough to put him out of the match or kill his spirit. 2 shots with a sledgehammer - SLEDGEHAMMER = equals out for a few months. Understandable. I'm not here to justify the aftermath of the match for the next few months, but the match itself.

Couple of shots with a sledgehammer! And about the wheelchair, well you saw him just dance out of it and go on to win the world title at SS. So? Triple H used weapons in the match and Shawn no-selled that. Er.....a sledgehammer is a little bit different than a chair - which wrestlers can get hit with, but get up a minute later (OMG! NON-EXISTANT SELLING!!) - or a garbage can lid. Ask your friend to hit you with a chair in the back. Then try a garbage lid. Then try a sledgehammer. See which one hurts you the most. I'm sure a hammer being swung with all its might would easily win.

"Wasn't as bad a everyone thought"? He retired for 4 years. Then HHH brutalized it. I'd say it SHOULD have been pretty bad. If the story of the match was "Shawn's back isn't really hurt" then it was even worse than I thought. Of course, that wasn't the story of the match, as Jim Ross and co. were putting over the severity of Shawn's injury all night. You're proving my point. Everyone thought Shawn was a walking cripple. One blow to the back, and he might never walk again. Hunter, JR, Lawler.....they all overestimated the extent to which HBK's back was beaten down. Only Michaels knew that his back was a little healthier than everyone thought. Sure, it's a sore spot - and weaker than the rest of the wrestlers - but it doesn't make him a walking cripple, by any stretch of the imagination - which is what HHH had believed. If you look at it as "He had 4 years to rest, rehab his back, and make a big, healthy return", then it doesn't sound so bad.

I spent my entire post trying to explain the logic behind the match. And while selling is important.....it's not the be-all and end-all of professional wrestling. You need to your suspend your imagination a little. Realistically, if someone gets punched in the face, the fight's pretty much over. But in wrestling, a guy gets punched in the face and continues on, as if nothing has gone wrong. If you're going to complain about selling that is not 100% flawless, then you can't look past that. The goal of a wrestling match should be to make it ENTERTAINING - not that it's completely technically sound every single second of every single match. The match had a bigger role than for Shawn to just sell the back and end it like that, barely being able to pull off a bodyslam. Hey, wouldn't want to make the fans happy, would we? Again, the way I look at the match - Shawn's back wasn't as hurt as everyone thought. It ached, sure, but he rode through the pain to make a stirring comeback. Is it completely impossible to think that yes, it hurt, but he was hoping to lull HHH into a false sense of security - then spring back at him? Sure, it's called psychology.....but what does psychology mean, when there's a back to hold and groan about? False security for HHH? It DID hurt, but he knew he had to rally against it if he was going to prove his point to Hunter and the world? Pick a choice. As any home sports team can tell you, fan support always helps and can stir a team, or an individual, to a victory they might not have had without the support. Shawn might have thought about giving up but, thinking about all the fans cheering him on - and wanting to prove himself to them - he kept on fighting. Proper selling seems to be a matter of opinion. I think it was perfectly fine selling. You don't. Contrived spots? Er.....it's calling getting in position for a certain move. See, that's what wrestlers do when they try to perform an entertaining match for the fans. When they don't, a mess happens. And as for HHH rolling on the table, Shawn hit him with a fire extinguisher and he just happened to fall on it. Fit the flow of the match better than Shawn knocking him down, picking him up slowly - WITH THE BAD BACK (SELLING!! PSYCHOLOGY!!) - then lying him on the table. There was a reason for HHH falling on top of the set-up wooden table. And as for Shawn marks coming up with excuses, sure. Just don't explain to me again why the Benoit/RVD match with endless armbars and Submission-Mania that put the fans to sleep at SummerSlam was RVD's fault. I don't think I could stand to hear another faulty excuse from a Benoit mark.

Oh god, not the HBK-selling argument again. So he didn't sell the back the entire match. Big fucking deal. The whole role of the match was something larger. It was to prove that Shawn Michaels was back, and nearly as good as ever. Yes, his back was a factor - but it was not THE factor. Triple H could do as many abdominal stretches and backbreakers as he wants, but Michaels' back at that point was too strong to be put off by a couple of simple wrestling moves. It ached, but it didn't cripple him. With the fans behind him and adrenaline (GASP!!) surging through his veins, he was able to will through the aches and pains to attack Triple H back. Forearms, flying elbows, superkicks - his back hurt, but his desire to defeat his former friend and show the world he still had it was stronger. The kip-up was the culmination of the HBK comeback and showed that, while his back may be weaker than before, it is not shattered and not insurmountable. It was the classic HBK of old, coming back from a terrible beatdown and bouncing back like only he can. Then, the sledgehammer in the back put him down motionless, showing that he was not unstoppable and that the back, while better than what was previously thought, was not 100% healed and would always be a weaker point on Michaels than the rest of his body. What the fuck is so hard to understand about the story of the match?