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If that Hell in a Cell match poster didn't exist I would think HHH/Batista was done. It's funny that the wwe has built up challengers for both champions on opposite shows. Batista could concievably face off against JBL(pre-Mania build)) on smackdown and Cena can battle Christian on RAW. They can end JBL/Cena at Judgment Day.

It does have a chance of blowing up in their face, but they got to put Cena in there with stronger workers if they want him to be a top champion. I've heard HBK might also be going up against Cena and there's a chance Cena might get booed in that scenario too. The thing with Cena's character is that he's more suited to be a heel anyways and they could just turn him as champion. If they do that he'll probably just get cheered within weeks anyhow.

In kayfabe it made sense for Vince wanting HBK holding the title over Steve Austin. It stems with Vince's screwjob of Bret Hart. Bret Hart disobeyed him by not doing what's best for business with passing the torch to HBK whom he wanted. You got to also take into context HBK as the new generation leader of 1996. Bret suddenly became anti-American. Austin was another person who disobeyed what he was told by Vince Mcmahon. The only hole in the storyline was HBK telling Vince he did not need his backing for the match against Austin. HBK kind of rebelled against Vince with that one, but HBK was seen as more corporate and ass-kissing even though he did his DX stuff. He was young, talented, and seen as the leader of the youth. Austin seemed much more hard to control. As for justcoz's idea, I have been thinking about that ever since they brought back Bischoff and had the Vince/Shane segment post Hogan/Vince match. I thought they would split things up where Shane went up against Stephanie. I still think they will do HHH/Steph sometime. They are acknowledging thheir marriage in the media purposely now. Usually they try to sweep it under the rug like the Lita/Edge fiasco. The problem I think they might see with doing it for storylines again is that it might really be too realistic where fans will get even more apathetic towards advancement. The aura is already there with HHH's dominance and to flirt it in people's faces might cause more indifference. I actually think Russo is damn right though. They should have just stuck with the Mcmahon/Helmsley Era and have the split between the Mcmahon siblings where Vince and Linda are overthrown.

I think the purpose of this heel turn is for Eddie to feud with Cena for the title. Eddie in kayfabe has lost his spark and drive to be the top guy by sticking in a tag team with Rey Mysterio. They are doing a slow burn for Cena/Eddie. Of course, this is assmuming both men will stay on the same brand.

Well, I'm sure Booker T would rather have his wife beside him while touring the world than walking around with Cleo in a graveyard. Yep, this is a hard choice to make Plus, it seems like he might be feuding with Kurt Angle.

I honestly think Cena might be like HBK in 1995, but is more mainstream. I think it's also fair to say Cena is at Austin early 1997 levels. The potential is there for him to reach their status, but it all depends on how he works to improve himself. Christian on the other hand seems like he is getting Batista's kind of heat a few months back. The potential is there for him to be the bust out player this year although Batista could still increase. Each year someone steps up. Orton WAS that guy until they ruined him post SummerSlam.

When they move Stephanie Mcmahon then I'll believe things may turn ratings. At least they got rid of the morons who wanted to turn Booker T into a voodoo master and hopefully the death of Paul Bearer crap doesn't rear its ugly head again.

You know justcoz is absolutely right. Remember that other thread about the wwe's identity and we went over all the phases the company went through? Well, the wwe is not using the internet properly anymore. During the last boom the wwe would use the heat of backstage stuff on the television which made things become more realistic to fans from the cartoon crap of Doink The Clown a few years prior. Look this is what I'm talking about....................... 1994 Bret Hart and Owen Hart have the best feud in the company and it's realistic where it kept people wondering how true some of the remarks were(such as Bret wanting Owen to wear a mask not to steal his last name*does seem like a Vince mindset for those days*) 1995 Shawn Michaels gets beat up in Syracuse. The wwe uses this in a storyline and HBK returns too soon and collapses on RAW. This angle was well recieved and an early indication that fans wanted a more mature product. Diesel who fans started to love as a heel big guy turns face and becomes corporate. The fans do not take to this as champion. He loses the belt and he starts to act more tweener by taking jabs at Vince for turning him soft. He goes to wcw and plays up his real personailty more and gets even more over. 1996-1997 Austin starts to berate Bret Hart. Bret Hart rags on HBK about being champion and feeling betrayed about losing the belt. The bickering continues on the net with backstage info and Bret and HBK end up having one hot ass feud. Austin jumps into the fray calling Bret a whiner and fans start to turn on Bret. Bret starts slamming America about turning on him for a hyena with no morals in what was becoming a cess pool in America. Hart family values. In wcw, they played up things that Hall and Nash were sent by the "new generation" wwf to make war on Nacho Man and the Huckster. It turns out Hogan joins Hall and Nash as he becomes the third member who "came from a great big organization up north". Then they brought Piper in to counter Hogan being the man who made wrestling and so on. 1998 Austin and Vince is rooted in Vince wanting his "champion" HBK retaining against the pr nightmare of the bird flipping Austin. Vince was also getting heat for what he did to Bret Hart. He throws challenger after challenger and Vince's master plan works with The Rock whom he saw as a corporate champion. The wwe used the knowledge some fans through his push to the moon as IC champ to make it realistic that Rock was wwe bred for the role as champion the way Vince saw it with his background. There is realism to it although it's all storyline. The wwf makes one of the greatest comebacks of all-time that year. 1999 This is where it all went downhill with the overscripting and unrealistic storylines. WCW is in the same boat with stuff that aren't related to the internet AND the masses. 2000 HHH and the Mcmahons are also rumoured to becoming together. It seeps into the storylines along with HHH's workrate and he is the greatest heel champ they ever had that year. 2001 It went straight to hell again with storylines, but the only thing on the net that fascinated fans was the growing relationship with HHH and Stephanie. 2002-2005 Things on the net are non-existant and so is the buzz for wrestling in the mainstream. Can all this be coincident or that the wwe just doesn't have someone like Russo who can turn real life incidents into compelling television that makes fans emotionally involved with something they might believe to be real?

Well, nothing's really changed. Everyone stated they liked his character, but thought he was not world championship worthy. It's no coincidence now that his reign has come to an end people are liking the guy. Hell, some on the net started to like the idea of him holding the title for a year. I still say the guy sucked as champion for the most part. Go ahead and tell me someone who can REALLY watch any of his title matches over and over like someone as Angle, Bret, HBK, Austin, etc. You can't because all he really has is the championship victory over Eddie and the cage match and it seems like Eddie was responsible for that. Then take into account how they protected him by not really having him in serious title matches on smackdown. Where JBL is now is where he belongs. Was it worth killing Eddie's heat for JBL as champion because that is exactly what happened? I don't buy that crap with Eddie admitting he couldn't handle the top. He's just playing politics. It seems like he was upset with how he was being short-changed as champion with matches against Danny Basham instead of being put in there with people like UT and Brock. JBL is entertaining though. I still think JBL and HHH in the same group would be friggin hilarious. Didn't JBL defend his title in front of 1200 people What a great draw. I'm sure Shawn Michaels' reign as champion didn't get that horrible in 1996(at least he was putting on 5 star matches and still played a big role later on with DX). Hell, Diesel probably didn't either.

Yeah, it was a cool swerve, but I think it was bad for business. How many in the masses felt they would get ripped off by another match like that between the two at WrestleMania. Then consider the "senior's tour match"(Bob Costas' words not mine) and HHH against Booker T who became a contender out of nowhere and maybe that buy-rate isn't so surprising. I guess Jericho and HBK didn't draw that well. When you take into account that horrible main event Jericho had a year earlier and not surprising. I forgot BROCK/Benoit was rumoured for Mania 19. BrockLock vs. The Crippler Crossface on smackdown months later comes to mind

I read a rumour it might be a hybrid show for raw and smackdown where wrestlers from the other brand would recap the opposite brand to build the rivalry for raw and smackdown. Is that a good idea or is there something better they can do?

Okay, yeah they write what Vince wants. However, if Vince says he wants Batista to turn face and tells the writers to come up with the scenario........... We get Batista eavesdropping on HHH telling the whole world about his masterplan. Then they have Bischoff and Long make no mention of this for the contract signing. Man, that's just bad television writing. Sure, Vince approves the final product, but damn aren't the hollywood people suppose to write coherently? That is different than booking and who gets pushed in this instance.

You see I think the wwe looks at the big picture and more than just a weekly thing. Cena was easily giving Eddie competition in popularity last year as US Champion. Hell, personally I think Cena has become too ridiculous with the over the top stuff since he turned face, but the guy is still very over. Cena is getting a bit of backlash now with even the general audience because of the forceful nature the wwe has pushed him since Royal Rumble with the "Chain Gang" nonsense. I bet if they try to turn Cena heel the fans will start cheering him harder. It's the lameness of Cena's character that's messing him up lately. At WrestleMania I still believe having friggin Austin's first appearance in a year and Hogan's first wrestling "action" in over a year hurt Cena and Bradshaw(not that I'm complaining). Eddie in comparison didn't seem too popular either, but those two are the biggest draws of all-time.

When was the last time anyone went to a televised smackdown or ppv? I went to a smackdown last year and I was shocked how sheep people were with Cena. When I saw the show on tv it didn't do it justice. I was saying to myself at the arena that Cena aint that great why the hell is he getting CENA CENA sheep chants for coming to the damn arena to promo against Booker T. People aren't looking at things the other way. Batista defends his title against Christian and he isn't the popular one in the match. I still want to see if Batista will keep his heat when he's not facing Triple H. Cena the wwe KNOWS is over because they already tested him as US Champion. I think Eddie will always be ovr, but he has a stigma to him that Cena doesn't yet which was being a midcarder for so long. Cena does have to watch out for fans turning on him if he doesn't keep to promos like last week's. I also think all the damn unnecessary jobbing with Christian has made him the underdog fans want to see come out on top. The guy is entertaining and much more deserving of a push than cardboard Edge.

True what you are saying and that is probably the main reason why they won't hire writers who will be vocal about how crappy some of the stuff is. I mean look at Paul Heyman. I think it's fine to give the writers breaks because for all the ragging they get they are overworked. Switching them around and letting them restart their engines isn't a bad idea.

It's funny how there was a rumour that Edge would be feuding with Kane post Mania. Maybe it is all an angle. I mean this doesn't seem like the wwe to pass up on this thing. I mean the Canadian screwing the American in revenge for Bret Hart sounds right up their ally

So what are the betting lines for how long this guy lasts? I was laughing at his resume on here until jumpingbombangel made a good point. People just end up writing for wrestling it seems like. Then again, I've read guys like Scott Keith and Rick Scaia were turned down more than once for the position. Hell, I know they can come up with some nice stuff with their analysis sometimes. Sure there will be some biases, but hey it beats stuff like Austin pissing on Anderson and so on. Although, that crap has somewhat toned down, but I still can't laugh at "I Spy" Dave Batista on the night he turned face.

I want to ask some here how the wwe should run this draft. It seems that they are wondering themselves. A new rumour has it spanning multiple shows. Should they move the champs as rumoured a few months back? Really, this is one time I really can't come up with something really compelling that would really boost interest and make it entertaining.

I'm not really downplaying Angle and Brock's build, but Angle's condition kind of made the whole thing queezy. I also think that free match on smackdown wasn't a good idea. Some people liked their WrestleMania encounter more, but imo the SummerSlam match was much better.

Ugh, Cena is the most over guy in the company. Why don't people understand this? His fan support is not dying down any time soon. True. Christian is getting the underdog heat that fans always do. Batista was getting it, but he's champion now. Before that it was Randy Orton in the summer. Cena is still the top babyface. The fans might not like all his pandering, but when he cuts promos like last week at MSG he connects the best with the new audience. He can always just turn heel, but with his cd and movie coming out I think he can only get more popular carrying the real belt.

I think the increase in buys isn't necessarily due to the elimination of midcard workers although that is one element. If you look at the earlier Mania shows there was a mix of lower card to main event on the card. I still think in terms of depth a show like WM III still had a bigger match feel. At the top you had the big match feel of Hogan and Andre. The upper midcard had Steamboat and Savage. The mid-card had the Bulldogs/HF and Piper/Adonis, while the low card had stuff with Bundy and Muraco etc. IMO, that still looks more like a big match card compared to WM 19 that had "4 main events". I might say putting taking out boring filler might have helped. One thing we are missing in this equation is that perhaps the brand extension is playing a major role in this. I don't think Angle/HBK was nonsensical at all. They did revisionist history, but it was believable. Angle won the gold medal in 1996, but HBK was getting accolades being the "professional wrestler". HBK is one of the most decorated athletes in wwe history, but Angle is the only Olympic decorated athlete in wwe history. They played this up and it illustrated both characters and the accomplishments. This was better than last year's dream match with Goldberg and Lesnar. Orton turning heel to challenge UT after failing to capture the gold made sense in terms of him trying to regain his credibility as a legend killer. It was better than UT/Kane's reason for fighting last year.

Another theory making the rounds is that the company is getting buys from fans who can't see the event at bars anymore. All this stuff could be true, but I bet if it was last year Benoit and Eddie would be getting all the praise for the big buy-rate instead of all this theories why a Mania that was main evented by Cena and Batista got this big buy.

Well, the Mania name obviously has something to do with it as well. However, I think last year's finish probably gave fans confidence in a happy ending this year. WM 16 ended with a heel. WM 17 had Austin turning heel. WM 18 had Triple H in a flat title win although Hogan/Rock was the draw. WM 19 had Brock winning in an anti-climatic match. XX at least had all the top babyfaces going over in their matches. This year it happened again. Fans are probably trusting Mania for the happy ending again.

Guys, I do remember saying that Mania could surprise and this is one instance. As for weakening WM to help out the other ppv shows I completely disagree. You don't water down the Super Bowl for monday night football. You don't water down the World Series for a Sunday night ball game. Once they start taking the event for granted the good loyalty built up for the event will tarnish the event. The wwe for once have struck while the iron is hot with Cena and Batista imo. Many people were saying it was too soon for both men, but I always believed that in 1995 they screwed up Shawn Michaels heat as the top superstar by not having him as champion. By the time they put the title on Shawn Michaels in 1996 a lot of his heat was gone due to failing when the fanbase wanted him to be the top guy. The guy was getting face pops to win the title as a heel at Mania 11. A decade later and the wwe learned its lesson. The build with HBK/Angle was well done and was old school. The same with UT/Orton. It was about who wins and loses instead of crap like they did with WM 18. I think the added stuff with the HOF and Pipe's Pit helped push it up a bit. Last year did not have this element.

Just going over some of these matches and the possible outcomes on the product are pretty interesting. I will try to see how things might have played out. The guy did miss out on some matches such as Hogan vs. Piper at WM 2. That might not have made that much of a difference in the wwf, but it would not allow wcw to have the powder keg of a rivalry in 1996 where Piper bragged that he was the only man who Hogan couldn't beat in the 80's. Hogan/Piper just killed Bret/Sid in drawing power for December 1996 for ratings and buy-rates. If Hogan had gone over Piper at WM 2 the feud in wcw would not have the same aura. Hogan vs. Piper was also a rumoured match for WM 7 where Piper would take the strap off Ultimate Warrior. This could have been true due to the nature of how Piper was heelish in commentary in terms of Ultimate Warrior even though he was a face commentator. Ricky Steamboat and Randy Savage was also rumoured to be at WM 2 alledgedly, but it was held off until WM 3. I think we know the result of that turned out to be better in the long run, but I wonder how it would have been for Savage/Steamboat at WM 4? The wwe was going downhill in 1991, but I believe it was their own incompetence that caused it. Hulk Hogan vs. Ric Flair at WM 7 was rumoured in Toronto as well as Hogan/Warrior. There were rumours Flair was in talks with Vince around WM 6. Now, how would things have played out if Hogan vs. Flair happened at WM 7? I think they might have had a shot at getting a monster record if it was booked strong and the "Real World's Champion" storyline was a pretty good one. Flair and Hogan were still strong although they weren't at their heights of popularity or physical best as in '86-'89. This was a dream match and it would have avoided the disaster the company encountered in the media with the Hogan/Slaughter match. They might have had problems still drawing over 100,000 fans because I believe the company just got too cartoonish. If they had booked things like they did in 1986 and 1987 I have good reason to believe they would have made the mark(remember Big Event and WM 3 booking?). Another dream match the wwf botched for WM 7 was The Road Warriors(LOD) vs. Demolition. That didn't turn out too well, but there was a time when this was a dream match. It could have helped WM 7 draw for the LA Coliseum if they didn't rush it months before and made it anti-climatic. Hulk Hogan vs. Ultimate Warrior could have worked imo as well. One big reason Ultimate Warrior wasn't drawing as they wanted to imo was that he did not have any real big feuds that people cared about. He won the title and then feuded with Rick Rude all summer just as he did the year prior. Then they put him in half-ass feuds with Ted Dibiase. I actually think the Slaughter match if Warrior won would have raised his stock back up for a match with Hogan. Of course, it has never come across "insider's" minds that maybe Warrior vetoed jobbing back the title. With his ego I wouldn't put it past him. Then there are those who think the match was never going to happen which I also question when you think about Hogan not getting his win back which he always does. I think the match would have sold out the LA Coliseum if they had turned Ultimate Warrior heel and even put him in the Slaughter role. Things would have changed the landscape for sure in 1991. Vince Mcamhon vs. Eric Bischoff if it was planned could have also changed the landscape if they really wanted to bring back wcw which I remember was also rumoured. As mentioned they pretty much ruined the whole thing with Bischoff's first appearance. However, if they did Bischoff/Mcmahon in a fashion they wanted to do Flair/Mcmahon's feud the brand split might look different today. What if Vince listened to some of his staff that wanted to bring wcw back? Steve Austin vs. HHH is a strange one. I remember Heyman and HHH were rumoured to be pushing for this match at WM 17. I loved Rock/Austin, but maybe they should have done this match because of what transpired after WM 17. Austin returning from injury and winning the title in Texas against Triple H as champion would make things a lot different for many reasons. Of course, at the time Rock/Austin was highly anticipated, so that was done. Austin vs. HHH at WM 18 might have also worked well, but only if they didn't bring in the nWo. It just would not have seemed right for Mania when fans wanted to see Rock and Austin against the nWo. Rock vs. Austin is a great example of timing. I knew I remembered rumours about Rock/Austin at WM 16 and the wwe was wondering who to turn heel because they were doing polls on their popularity and stuff. They even had them teaming up before the Survivor Series. I think if Austin did not get hurt their match at WM 16 would have turned Austin heel MUCH better depending if the WM 17 match was just pushed back. HHH would not have got that heel win and imagine how different things would be if HHH was not pushed as a main eventer. I think the wwe would have done bigger business then they did. The Rock was at his peak in popularity and Austin's turn would have gone over better with the California crowd in 2000. HHH would not have leverage in saying he was a drawing champion with Rock and Foley which I'm sure plays a part in his reign of terror we see today. The Rock vs. Goldberg would have been better at WrestleMania simply because of the atmosphere. They ruined Goldberg's first appearance anyways with that vignette at Mania which killed the surprise the next night on RAW. They are doing it again with Hogan's "last match" this weekend. It should have happened at Mania. There is a reason why the event gets a big buy-rate. Fans put out to pay for the event because it's WrestleMania and saving "big matches" for lesser ppv for buys doesn't work anymore with all these damn ppv shows imo. The Rock vs. HHH at Mania 16 would have also changed the course of history because I'm quite sure Rock would not have jobbed in that scenario. He might have been a better champion and not have that label of being a better belt chaser than champion. WrestleMania XX's alternate with the biggest feuds of the last 20 years was a nice idea and maybe they should have just done it because Vince's promise about XX being about the future was hollow. It would have saved us from some of the terrible filler on the show. Remember there were was going to be video recaps and matches? Either way none of this would matter. WrestleMania 13 in hindsight could have been WAY better than it was and if things were done differently the wwe could have returned to glory earlier than it did. The thing with this timeframe is that it's very hard to tell how things would have been if it didn't go down the way it did. Vader/Mankind is one example, but I really liked the idea of British Bulldog and Owen Hart at the event with Bret re-uniting the family the night after on RAW. I loved Bret/Austin like everyone else, but I think if that match happened at WM 14 with Austin winning the title that would have been even better. Bret getting his job back from HBK and turning heel the night after would have given the wwe the response to the nWo it needed. Of course, Austin, HBK, and Bret were kind of banged up around the time. Remember Bret had surgery not too long after the Mania 13 match, but still appeared on television. So.....WM 13's alternate. WWF Championship : Bret Hart over HBK to win the title and turns heel the night after. British Bulldog vs. Owen Hart in most likely a classic Then you would have Austin still rising and he could have possibly faced off against either Sid or Undertaker, but they probably still would have done UT/Sid. Austin would be up against HHH or Rocky Maivia. Of course, they could have just went with Hart/Austin as the title match anyways how things went down. I think Vince still would have got rid of Bret with that contract and maybe Austin would have been crowned at SummerSlam and would not get injured which also changes history big time. HBK would not have got injured in a casket title match if he wasn't champion. HHH is kind of very lucky when you think about things. HBK and Austin would not have been the injured stars they would become. HHH really got his push because of lack of top stars in 1999 and 2000 with only Rock being a true main eventer. I know Foley was popular, but that was really because of his cell match stunts. Rock was more of a true main eventer in the vien of Austin and HBK. Then some say Vince would not have done the Mr. Mcmahon character which is true to some extent, but he was already putting himself in storylines before the Montreal incident. Remember Vince was trying to stop Austin from returning from injury to soon. It shows how much a year can make a difference. Then you got to consider the Mike Tyson incident which still would have happened, but he would perhaps be put in the Hart Foundation. Triple H against Hogan at WM 17 would have sucked and ruined the Hogan/Rock scenario. However, I still think Hogan vs. Austin in Toronto would have been better. I mean if Austin got booed against Hogan like that it is a real bizzaro world as Austin is hardly ever booed. Then if you take into account Austin's heel turn was kept I think this match would have really been the biggest buy-rate ever. The storyline would have to be a lot different though. I would have Austin reign with the title all year from WM 17 and proclaim to be the greatest champion of all-time and enter HULK HOGAN to accept his challenge. MONEY!!!!!!! Austin should have been the first undisputed champion and run the angle with Hogan's wcw fall-out with being the "real world's champion". The triple threat matches should not have happened at WM 15 AND 16 imo.