Promoter

The Hollywood Fashion Plate and JMA get what I'm trying to say. Vince should not have turned it only into a 6 month storyline and heel/babyface group. Austin would be the poster boy for wcw like Sting was as an example. You give it a facelift if the plan all along was to create two brands like what we have now. RAW/Smackdown as two brands aren't cutting it. You had wcw/nwa with its long history and the wwf with its history to work off. What the hell is raw and smackdown, but two television show names. One that was simply done as a counter to thunder in 1999.

To get the nWo over, you'd have to let them annihilate the faces. Doing that did a BANG-UP job of killing WCW, so the WWF doing the same idiotic thing wouldn't exactly be logical. Same problem with GB. WCW was killed because all of the faces were killed by the nWo and all of the heels were killed by GB. When those stopped drawing, they had a rather big problem. Nobody in the world would have bought it. WCW's booking worked because some casual fans ASSUMED that WWF was invading. This wouldn't work in this situation. I don't want to get too much off the topic, but just responding. WCW didn't have stars? So, who were Sting, Goldberg, Hogan, Hall, Nash, etc. Jusdt because they weren't apart of the last nitro didn't mean they weren't in the company. Don't forget the last nitro was going to be the night of champions, but Vince had bought the company and Bischoff's plan for the show fell through. I'm a wwf mark, but to say wcw didn't have stars is a bit of a stretch. I went into how things could have been done with who goes over who and whatnot in the other thread. The wwe didn't use Stiener properly and yes I know he was a stiff. It still doesn't take away that the wwe casted him as a face against all good logic even when the fans were turning on him. Goldberg in a wig and selling for Mark Henry says it all. You wouldn't have to let the nWo get over all the faces like wcw. The wcw screwed up with the nWo angle because Bischoff had no long term plan for it(sound familiar?). Sting and Goldberg should have been the ones to put a nail in the coffin of the group, but they didn't. I don't think people bought Vince killing his own creation either or Flair as co-owner. The nWo wouldn't be invading, but returning to Vince Mcmahon and wanting their just due for the services they had done down south. That would be much better than "kill my own creation..me and the nWo". Vince killed the nWo long before he made that announcement about the nWo era in the wwf being over. Silly stuff like "killing" Rock did that. He injured the patient and put him on the table and played doctor by ending its life with the motivation of murdering it for personal reasons. As for the HBK/Flair match I am referring to last year's match on ppv and not the match when he was a tag wrestler. To bring it back on topic. I would laugh my ass off if this is all an old school work

Nope, my premise is that the wwe purchased an entity and from a business perspective didn't allow using shareholder's money to make back on the investment. I'm not crying over spilled milk, but just making an obvservation for discussion on the message boards. Again, this is not about ANGLES per se, but making a brand work. You are missing the point of making wcw a draw in and of itself. Do you think if Vince was serious about making the thing work he would not try to make it draw? You can't say for sure that this fan or that fan wouldn't watch a different version of wcw if it was taken seriously by its owners. For what they did of course wcw fans wouldn't watch. Why not really try to make it an alternative? Again, I never stated wcw and the wwe as equals in 2001. I stated that the wwe could have had a real brand split cosmetically right now instead of raw vs. smackdown. In other words what the wwe could have done besides this brand split we have now. It's not about wcw going over wwe, but creating two entities. It's not about appeasing a few smarks because quite frankly I think only the smarks and some fans left from the last boom are really interested in this brand split.

That is how I feel about it. It didn't work because Vince didn't want it to. The nonsensical stuff in 2001 and 2002 I believe turned away fans and some haven't come back since. That sounds strange, but it's true. Look how Vince was determined to make Brock a star. Vince had a dispute with Hogan in 2002, but somehow he got Hogan back to do the match with him at Mania 19. Vince just did not want the thing to work. When Vince wants things to work he does his damn best to make it work. The Rock is another example. If anyone has the Royal Rumble 2002 dvd and seen the extra with Ric Flair he states that Vince didn't follow through with wcw for whatever reason. The reason is understandable since they really put a hurting on him, but it can't be denied it has hurt the industry. Even with wcw at its lowest levels in 2000-2001 the business was still stronger. Vince admitted on OTR that wcw was good for business and that maybe he shouldn't have purchased it. Vince had the power to make it work and not regret having wcw as a viable entity.

You know when that happened my friends who were casuals actually thought Vince was lying and didn't buy it. They asked me if it was true and asked why he was bringing them back. In hindsight there really was no real reason to bring them back. The storyline was nonsensical and not rooted in something like Hall and Nash entering wcw in 1996.

Anglesault is right. That was a major flaw in what they did. They can't have wcw come in and try to bully spots from wwf wrestlers. That is why I stated that Austin or someone of his stature needed to get behind wcw. You had to take someone extremely popular and give wcw a leg to stand on. You turn Vince into the bully somehow. I think Austin would be best. The Rock couldn't do it because the fans are much faster to turn on him than Austin. We saw how hard it took the wwe to fully turn the fans on Austin. Austin/Mcmahon was the heart of the attitude era and if Austin left Vince in relation to that storyline it would be like Hogan leaving Vince in 1993 for the wcw. He would bring people to the side of wcw.

My thing is not really about making an original splash for the big interpromotional match with the big guns. I'm more of the opinion that this current brand split idea is just a substitute for what would have been wcw and the wwf. The wwf should not have mixed the two the way they did at the time. You see how patient Vince is with "his idea" of the brand extension? That is what I feel Vince should have done with the purchase of wcw. Have patience and build it back up. THEN you run the supercard. You give some dream matches here and there to keep fans interested, but the goal should be to have two brands.

I actually like this thread and long convo as long as the repitition isn't done too often. I mean we might have Flair and Hart accuse us of being "routine" I was asked by someone to post about the invasion in another thread, so my points would be there. Vince should have put over wcw/nwo/ecw because that would be best for business. I am also not arguing the point you made about Bischoff putting over nWo over the wcw. That is a different topic all together. I think the reason this thread and these topics are going so long is that the current stuff isn't exactly getting any strong reactions from any of us. I mean you can only spin the HHH/Eugene topic so much and hate on Bradshaw to an extent that can entertain discussions that go into the history of wrestling.

This thread is about what I feel went wrong with the wwe in 2001 and 2002 in terms of blowing the nwo and wcw invasions of the wwe. I think certain things have to be taken into consideration here. When Vince Mcmahon bought wcw and used Shane Mcmahon in storylines as the man who stole the company from underneath his nose that was brilliant. The reason being that the big news had already leaked out in the mainstream press that the wwe bought wcw. If the wwe could have kept things under wrap it might have been better, but being realistic that was impossible. What I think the main problem was at first was that Vince Mcmahon obviously was happy to be the man to purchase his competition and rightfully so. Anyone would have been the same in terms of being happy about that accomplishment, but Vince lost track of what he really did have in his hands. Go back and watch the raw/nitro simulcast and see how Vince degrades his own company in wcw by stating he had the organization in the palm of his hands and he was shocked that they weren't performing in a barnyard or something to that nature. This is good heat if Vince had planned on making wcw separate, but he didn't. Imagine the opposite happening if Eric Bischoff bought the wwf and he showed up on raw and said those things. You can bet that wwf fans would slowly turn off, but at least see where things were going. You had Booker T and Scott Stiener in the last real wcw title match with Booker T going over. This is all well and good. They even had Ric Flair cut a wicked promo on the wwf and Vince Mcmahon defending the history of the nwa/wcw. Keep that in mind when a few months later Flair shows up in his hometown backing a "winner" in the wwf. Nonsensical. Vince forgot he now had two different fanbases to cater to. Yes, I know ratings and attendance was falling for wcw, but the fact of the matter was that wcw at one time was the #1 company and people did know about their existence. The wwe should have worked to generate interest back into wcw by giving its fanbase some hope. Anyways, the finish of the simulcast with Shane proclaiming his wcw would kick Vince's ass like it did before. Now, I bring things to WM 17 where Shane Mcmahon vs. Vince Mcmahon happened. The hype of the wcw purchase was at its fever pitch right here and there should have been a stipulation about the future of the two companies. I know some might say this was too close to the purchase, but if I recall correctly in late February and early March Big Show did speak about Vince having something up his sleeve for the wrestling business which tells me the purchase thing was in the works for at least a month. The wwe legally through a court order also had the first rights to purchasing wcw from the legal problems wcw and wwf had over the Razor and Diesel gimmicks. You see how we now have the two brands separate on different days? Vince and Shane Mcmahon should have fought over those television rights. Shane is also an owner of the wwf remember and would be realistic. The wwe started to stray from realism starting from the Survivor Series 2000 show. Anyways, Vince could have kept raw and Shane should have got wcw nitro for the thursday timeslot. That way the big hype of the future of nitro's heat would have transfered over. You separate the two entities and keep the fanbases separate. You want to make a big impact with star power? The wwe could have still used Austin with his heel turn in Texas, but make him turn on wwe fans and on Vince Mcmahon. Move Austin to wcw and nitro. That would give wcw a big boost. Austin would have a great explanation of not wanting to deal with the crap Vince was doing to him anymore and that wwe fans didn't deserve his services anymore since they didn't actually miss him while he was out. Now, I'm keeping this in real-time and the incidents that occurred. Rock would be gone as well because of him filming his movies. You have Rock and Austin leave in protest since Vince would be asking for their help on the resurrection of wcw. Rock leaves Vince and heads to hollywood because of the same reasons, but he doesn't turn on the fans. This keeps Austin heel and Rock face. You have the two biggest stars question the future chance wwf has of competing with this new wcw. The wwe had to put themselves at a disadvantage in the beginning since they in reality won the war. Vince strips Austin of the wwf title and there is no nonsensical story of Austin taking the title over to the Alliance. In reality, Vince would strip Austin of the belt. We know what he did to Austin to prevent the issue of embarassment. The wwe and wcw would then switch up talents through some manueverings since Shane was also an owner of the wwf. You create a storyline where Shane is absolved of his duties as owner of the wwf. You have Stephanie Mcmahon and Triple H stand by the father of sports entertainment Vince Mcmahon. Linda could stand behind her son who is a momma's boy. The trick though would be too keep this very low on segment content and focus on wcw's resurrection and repeat the sort of exodus that happened in 1994-1996 between wwf stars jumping to wcw. You do this for the summer of 2001. You have SummerSlam be a joint venture where Rock returns and wins the wwf title before having the champ vs. champ ppv showdown with Steve Austin to blow off Austin/Rock's story for that year. The finish can be similar to the HHH/HBK one last December or what they actually did with Kurt Angle. You run the same angle that was done where Rock returns not for Vince, but for his wwf fans. This would be the bright hope and hopefully by this time both wcw and the wwf could be on equal footing. You run things as normal and make things seem like par for the course to set up the big storm ahead. At the 2002 Royal Rumble you have the big guns come in as a surprise and advertise the lesser guys. I know the wwe was in talks with Hogan, Hall, and Nash before the Rumble because it was in the "dirtsheets". The wwe should have just got Goldberg here. You also save Ric Flair. Now, you bring Flair in as a bitter man and the hired bodyguard of Shane Mcmahon. You need Flair to represent wcw plain and simple. It should happen sooner actually, but I'm going off real time here. The nWo ruin the Royal Rumble and there is no winner who goes on to challenge the wwf champion. You make Hogan, Hall, and Nash cut a promo that is more vicious than the one they did at Bash at the Beach. I know this would piss off people for not having a finish to the Rumble, but I think the surprise return of the nWo would overshadow this and the group would have made a serious impact. Hogan, Hall, and Nash are pissed off at Vince Mcmahon and demand their bounty money that was promised for destroying wcw. Again, in early 2002 for some odd reason HBK was re-signed, but for whatever reasons people say he and Triple H had some kind of falling out and couldn't appear. Okay, we'll deal with that, but I would also have HBK appear in the nWo and proclaim the conspiracy that was set up by Vince Mcmahon to destroy "Billionaire" Ted. Now remember, wcw and the wwf would be against each other. I would have the nWo be the renegade group disrupting both entities. There would be abuzz in the air. The rosters and its champions would look like this at the time of the nWo takeover. WWF WWF Heavyweight Champion: The Rock WWF Intercontinental Champion: Chris Jericho WWF Tag Team Champion: Dudleys WCW WCW Heavyweight Champion: "Stone Cold" Steve Austin WCW United States Champion: Booker T WCW Tag Team Champion: Palumbo & O'Haire *You need to keep at least 2/3 as what wcw was before being bought out to keep the illusion. Now, it would be a year in the making for the dream "superbowl" at WrestleMania 18 instead of the rushed crap at Invasion in July of 2001. WWF Heavyweight Title Match The Rock(wwf) vs. Bill Goldberg (wcw) You pit the two babyfaces against each other in Toronto. This way you still save the real dream match between Goldberg/Austin It's not fair, but Rock would put him over and go do his movie gig Goldberg as WWF Champ would work well in creating tension in the wcw vs. wwf war by having him come over to the wwf to show wcw as superior. WCW's top star is rebuilt and sets up Goldberg for future anti-wwf reign. WCW Heavyweight Title Match Steve Austin vs. "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan The storyline is wcw oriented where Hogan claims he never lost his wcw title due to Russo's crap. You got the real icon vs. icon match-up with something on the line. Hogan would have to do the job. Triple H/Kurt Angle (wwf)vs. Scott Hall/Kevin Nash(nWo) Angle would carry the match since all of these guys would be rusty, but Trips and Angle would be defending Vince Mcmahon. Vince Mcmahon vs. Ric Flair *These would be the top stories and matches for the event. Now, you keep the two separate and perhaps run the current landscape. You build things for SummerSlam 2002. I would still run the Lesnar project and have him be the new saviour for the wwe by going over Goldberg at SummerSlam for the wwf title. I would do Rock/Hogan at SummerSlam 2002 as well with the nWo on the line. Rock is the man who ends the nWo. Hogan goes into hiding. I will go with Austin leaving and so on since he did disappear. Now with the nWo gone Eric Bischoff in wcw brings them back under the wcw banner. You run the brand split the same. The key is too use the hype from the wcw purchase and use wcw/nWo instead of going the route of raw/smackdown brands. They needed to build back wcw immediately with the hype in early 2002. Using Austin they would have the biggest star of the attitude era bringing fans over to the wcw and have Rock be the face of the wwf giving wwf fans something to cheer for. Austin would turn heel on the wwe, ut still stay face as it was hard to turn him completely anyways with his strong fanbase. You make the needed adjustments in the midcards to strengthen both companies. You eliminate the Mcmahon focus that was done which took away from the entities of ecw and wcw. I would not have used ecw either as the mainstream news was wcw. ECW could have rebelled within wcw for its own storyline. You take the purchase of wcw and actually deliver on the product like it was one of your own instead of just making it a half year storyline. This way you could milk it for years instead.

Shanghai kid you got a point there. Bret is being ridiculous saying Foley is better than Flair. Hart has already stated what he thinks about HBK as a worker in a wwe promo before Mania 12. He felt HBK wasn't technically sound on the mat, but was good as a heavyweight luchadore or something along those lines. I can't remember the promo exactly. It could have been just working, but Hart also stated that he felt Savage was really good and that HBK was knocking at his door for the title as he was knocking at the door of Savage for the championship(I believe he was neck and neck as a main event champ in 1992 being the secondary champ to Savage).

Oh yeah, I know I brought up Bret returning and whatnot. What do people think if he returned as the president of the wwe? I think that would open up a whole bunch of storyline possibilites for raw and smackdown. Bret wouldn't have to wrestle, yet he would have hostilities with you know who on raw and Angle can be used as a front man for the president on smackdown. We know Bret has pulled the face on one side and heel on the other side before.

This thread could make a record I swear. Anyways, as for the nWo and wcw invasion topic, the wwe blew it plain and simple. That was an angle that was years in the making. The wwe blew it because they had no concrete plan to make it be what it should have been and that is the greatest angle in history. Vince was cheap and did not want to pay for the services of the big guns at first. Vince never had the plan of making wcw separate. How in the hell could the wwe expect wcw to get over in a wwe environment? Of course, they would get booed initially. The wwe did not think that angle out imo. They brought in Hogan, Hall, and Nash and ruined that angle as well. Just as with the brand split there was too much damn confusion with the wcw invasion and all the belts floating about the place. Another thing was that Vince did not follow the gameplan of the original reason why the takeover in wcw sparked interest. I won't get into what I felt the wwe could have done in detail, but I will say this. The wwe could have spun things to make it seem like the nWo members had returned for their receipt from Vince Mcmahon for killing wcw. The storylines were nonsensical like Ric Flair actually backing against the company he helped mold. The wwe rushed the angle and confused the damn market by killing off the fanbases of wcw and ecw. There were fans who only watched those entities, but Vince seemed to think otherwise. You don't do any favours to destroy the properties you had now owned in 2002. Foley did put comedy into his character, but that was not really apart of his ringwork(with the exception of Dude Love). There is a difference. I think it is also telling that HBK didn't have that great a match with Ric Flair either to be honest. I always just took it that both men aren't what they use to be. I was rather disappointed with HBK/Flair. I also think HBK was better than Bret, but the reasons are for stuff like charisma, magnetism, being a chameleon, and knowing how to connect with more than just the general fanbase of the wwe. You know, I truly believe Steamboat/Flair's best match was the one where he won the title. I compared that match with Angle/Benoit and believe it or not I think Angle/Benoit had it beat. I also have Taker/Bret from One Night Only and that is a better match than the cell match between Taker/HBK. That match has certain parts which drag. Bret/Taker had a better flow from beginning to end.

Austin and Bret really had the best feud of the 90's between two wrestlers that delivered in the ring. Bret was also apart of the mega feud with HBK. Bret was also apart of Mr. Mcmahon's character growth. Are people forgetting stuff like the 97 Rumble and the night after? Bret did help make Austin a star because a lot of things revolved around Bret in those days. I do't think this can be disputed.

Loss, so Hogan vs. Andre and Flair vs. Sting hold the tv ratings numbers respectively of all-time. Just more suspicion that I always stated that wrestling was bigger in 1986-1989 timeframe than the attitude era. I knew it was bigger back then just by being on NBC. I always get into that argument. I also never knew about Landell's incident either. Good stuff. I've read another net writer's opinion on this Flair/Hart debate and he made a point that Bret and Flair really aren't the same kind of wrestlers. His argument was that Flair was like a Rock in terms of mic work and being a colourful personality, while Hart was somewhat of a Chris Benoit. That was just an extreme view, but I got the point he was making. Anyone agree with this? He said for what Bret excelled in he smoked Flair and vice versa. He also said that this is just a personal vendetta now with both men trying to cut the other's legacy, so they can be seen as the greatest of all-time.

Maybe the wwe should get Bret back or Bret should consider the farewell speech. Imagine the Flair/Hart face to face heat in a building like Calgary, North Carolina, New York, or Toronto. It would be surreal.

Benoit has been called a robot too Landel is a great legend who has put on better matches than both Flair and Hart. He knows what he's talking about. I think Vince wanted to make him wwf champion at one time as well.

It's not the wrestlers. It's the presentation. However, I believe smackdown's deficiencies are an ailment because of raw. I ask this question. Did anyone hear actually try to explain the brand split to a casual fan or non-fan? I mean explain why a person should care? There is no reason for it and the wwe hasn't given people one. There are a lot of problems that are hurting both brands. I mean seriously try to explain to yourself what the purpose of this brand split is and not the business related reasons. From an entertainment standpoint try to explain this brand split.

pochonorella, the carry job most likely would be his match against Davey Boy Smith in England.

The real problem with wrestling all together is that FORMAT imo. Wrestling didn't take off again until nitro gave a new format. Vince was still stuck with his old crappy format with pig farmers opening up raw and got his tail kicked for it in ratings. The wwe changed up their format and lo and behold attendance and attention rose. The things that worked great from 1996-2000 aren't working anymore. Here is a list of things that need to go. EVIL ADMINISTRATOR *This thing is played out. There is no balance. The GM act like there is no set plan for the night and everything is by chance. It was great as a break from tradition in the 90's because it created the live atmosphere of anything can happen, but it worked well because there was at least some structure in place originally. You got Bischoff and Angle pretending to run things, while when Vince was doing it things felt more genuine because the wwe became honest about the man behind the scenes. What is the real purpose of the general managers in kayfabe when we know Vince and Linda are the bosses. They have not given a real reason why there are general managers. Matches happen for the most stupid reason and there is no structure of people getting matches. There is no working your way to the top to make fans care about the chase. Didn't Eugene just enter the damn wwe? How is he getting a world title shot before someone like say Christian or Chris Jericho? The current story is about Triple H and his belt. He chases the belt or he retains the belt and everyone else is just a distraction(I'm not bashing Triple H, but that is how the structure feels). Look at Edge's I-C title win for an example. Sure he won the strap, but does anyone really care? There was no real build up and who in the hell did he leap over to get to the strap? Over on smackdown you got someone like Angle running the show and doing things that make no sense. Why hasn't the baord stepped in for taking a title off a merchandise seller? They told the story better with Steve Austin and Vince Mcmahon through the idea that Austin was a PR nightmare compared to other corporate champs such as the ol' school Hulk Hogan or even Bret Hart. The title situation is the same thing as on raw. Bradshaw becomes wwe champ out of nowhere. I can see how the masses has turned off. I also agree that the wwe loves to run things into the ground.

Loss, I thought Hogan vs. Andre from NBC had the most viewers of all-time at over 33 million people and a 15.1 rating?

Now the next question is who gets fired next and sent to one show. Would sending all the tag teams to one brand be a good idea?

geniusMoment you also make some good points. Especially, the one about this being an alternate universe where Hart and Flair are getting attacked because of their workrate. Hart and Flair!!!!, while we got people like JBL as WWE Champ

You got a point there godthedog

1)Jericho defeating Rock and Austin is not believable to the masses. He looked like a fluke all times he faced them and got the win. Look at his promo against Rock where he was crying for people to take him serious prior to the Royal Rumble. Jericho was a joke as a champion and some say he shouldn't have even been undisputed champ to begin with. HBK's "victories" were tainted yes, but in a heel fashion. The fans did not believe he didn't deserve to retain his title because he wasn't main event material. He was unlike Jericho who just seemed out of his league as champion. HBK beat Nash at full strength at Good friends Better Enemies before heading to wcw. HBK also won the last ladder match between himself and Hall which was apart of his build up to his world title victory in 1996. The two scenarios are treated differently in kayfabe. HBK was bragging about beating the two men who fathered the revolutionary nWo and even hinted he was the real leader. Back then that kind of thing was "hot" because people were into worked shoots at the time(as some people believed Hall and Nash were working for Vince). 2)The wwe alluded to the Kliq the night after Badd Bloodd where HBK showed the MSG curtain call clip on the titantron. Again, back then that stuff was taboo. In kayfabe that happened after he beat them in singles matches. He stated that the break up of the Kliq shouldn't be confused with actual expansion of the Kliq to wcw and down south. That is where the "finish you off" comment was based off. 3)When HBK faced off against Owen Hart, he was being given a push. It was even rumoured he was going to headline against HBK at the Royal Rumble. Owen was billed as the last surviving member of the Hart Foundation when he went up against HBK on television. HBK didn't get upended by the avenging brother. It can be argued Owen Hart was actually a fit for the Nation as the "black hart" looking for a new family. He was still feuding with DX up until Mania and turned heel after saying enough is enough. Owen was still decently pushed. 4)Yes, he went over thanks to Vince which made him the most hated man for being apart of the biggest controversy over a title match ever. He went over Shamrock who was billed as the world's strongest man because of his UFC background. I think Vince liked the idea of his wwf champ going over a former UFC champion just for marketing reasons. He went over Taker because of Kane because Taker is a monster. HBK has never defeated Taker one on one without help. Remember he won the cell match with Kane's help too? The month prior to that he couldn't get a victory over him either at the September ppv. You are also forgetting that HBK was having back pain and that was the reason for his lack of involvement and the wwe being wise to build Austin/Vince. They were saving HBK for Mania and preventing any further chance of damage to his back. In other words, Vince was "protecting his investment" of the WrestleMania MAIN EVENT that was getting mainstream press because of Mike Tyson. How Jericho undisputed champ and lap dog for Stephanie Mcmahon can compare to that?

Did you remember the marketing behind Michaels the night after Survivor Series? He came out on raw and basically said he RAN BRET out of the wwe and sent him down south for his friends to finish the job. If anything we got the heel HBK everybody was asking for as champion instead of that boyhood dream propaganda in 1996. He got one over on Owen Hart on free television. He went over Undertaker at Rumble(stupid finish regardless) and was proclaimed as the icon who could still go who ran off nWo members Hall and Nash. HBK even mixed it up almost with Mike Tyson. Jericho's reign was nowhere close to HBK's DX reign as champion. There were reports of people jumping barricades with the heat HBK had then(which is why I always say HHH is still behind HBK in the big scheme of things). A couple of riots even occurred when he teased not giving the match people paid for and telling the crowd he was not gay and would show them by picking a women in the crowd. HBK title reign does not=Jericho's joke of a reign in 2002. Hell, HBK even dissed Mcmahon's endrosement of him retaining prior to WM 14 against Austin saying he was so great he didn't need his approval. Another thing to consider is this...Kurt Angle who won an Olympic gold medal is/was determined to get Bret back for one match, so he can be called the greatest of all-time in the business by working with him. He hasn't gone to Vince about doing a match with Flair which would be much easier to do.