Promoter

I think A LOT of the main guys from the 80's work started to tank from 1990-1991 and on. I watch WM 8 and all I get is the feeling that the 80's stars were in a twilight zone. Piper was not the same Piper of the mid 80's against Bret Hart. Santana was not the same Santana against HBK. Hogan had been declining and it showed with his match with Sid. I even think that Savage/Flair match is over-rated. Not saying it wasn't a good match, but really look at that match and compare it to their work in 1987-1989. It was clear the new crop was coming up. I also think Savage was the only guy who actually looked decent workrate wise during that whole nwo era in wcw in the "icons". Savage and DDP was good. As for Bret Hart in wcw, they completely screwed up one of the hottest babyfaces ever at the time. Plain and simple. Bischoff used him wrong and didn't capitalize on having the real wwe champion. Imagine Vince getting that? You saw how he handled it with Ric Flair in 1991.

Just to add to this conversation. I think it can't be argued that Savage, Hart, and HBK are much more of a chameleon than Ric Flair. These guys can pull off different type of matches, while I really don't see Ric Flair doing the same thing. It could be an era thing, but the fact remains those three guys could do different style of matches. Bret Hart has done ironman matches, steel cage matches, I quit matches, and HBK who Flair claims is greater than Hart was even better at making an impact in new style of matches like the ladder and cell matches. This tend to make me think Hart is not just ripping on Flair about being a "routine man" for the sake of it. BTW, HBK is said to be just as Randy Savage in wanting to detail all his matches without improvisation, yet Flair calls him great. What's the difference? Savage was one of the original high flyers in the history of the wwe. As for putting people over I can't really have too much of a say in that because I never really got access to the nwa in Toronto. For what it's worth Flair was a draw here getting face pops before Vince bought off Tunney and took over this region. I guess Toronto has always been a different city even way back then. I will say that in all of these guys involved in this debate Savage was the least demanding. I mean he was in matches with Steamboat and became wwe champ in 1988 and all of a sudden after that big break up with Hogan it seems he got demoted for no good reason. Savage was put against stiffs like Duggan and Dusty Rhodes(charisma yes, but ring skills no in 1990) for crying out loud.

Again, the idea last year when the wwe was courting Bruno again was to have him be included in the "history of wwe championship" dvd. I believe they already got interviews with Pedro Morales and as we know Superstar Billy Graham. I think it might have had something to do with Brock's "Greatest WWE Champion of all-time" push that got halted around Royal Rumble time. A dvd of this kind will make money and having Bruno as a spokesman for the wwe 24/7 would attract the fanbase that stopped caring about the product when Bruno disappeared. That is a fanbase that the 24/7 would attract as well which was the sexual revolution era of the 60's that gave way to the baby boom of the 80's.

Thing is, Bruno, from the matches I've seen, was terrible in the ring. If he worked today, he'd have been laughed out of the ring. -=Mike If this is true, then the wwe have some of the greatest television producers and can make it look all slick. However, from what I've read Bruno's matches that were done on television were a lot different than what would happen at house shows because back then all his matches for television were blow off matches where he was suppose to murder his opponents after the program had exhausted. Some say Bruno's real workrate was not documented on tv for the most part due to the philosophy back then.

Well, it sure is a lot more interesting than what the wwe is currently doing for any feud that's for sure. What if this all leads to Bret Hart vs. Ric Flair retirement match at WM 21 with HHH at Flair's side and Angle at Hart's side and we get special referee Vince Mcmahon? It would sure blow away any other drama the company can concoct.

Another question is will the latest Bret tirade prevent any future work such as the Bret DVD for Christmas. Bret didn't hold back at all lately. This is another reason why I would love to see a real straight shoot of Bruno in a book. It would be quite entertaining I think. I noticed Bret didn't defend Bruno against Flair's attack.

Flair got his ass torn out by Bret!!!!!!!!! Of course, Bret is always going to talk about Montreal. He wants the truth to be known about it. Look how many damn times the wwe uses it in storylines. Flair brought it up in his book, so Bret responded to the Montreal incident again for those who don't know about it. There are a lot of fans out there that didn't watch back then. I tend to believe Bret's stories on Flair for the simple reason that Vince Mcmahon has claimed the greatest story teller he ever promoted was Bret Hart. He said his greatest performer of all-time was Shawn Michaels. I have never heard or seen Vince give the backing to the claim of Flair being the greatest of all-time. Of course, it can be argued Flair was apart of the competition and he would be bias to his crop. If that's the case, Flair denigrates his legacy as someone said by claiming the wwe as the greatest company and that the wwe title was the real championship all along. I just want to hear Macho's rap song on Flair next. You saw what the hell he did against Hogan

Actually, thinking about it now you are right. Vince thanked Austin and did a cheer for Austin didn't he? It was Rock who made the snide remarks on Austin on the broadcast.

That's correct, but I think these guys are talking more about recently. Although, he did say that fans aren't exactly asking for Austin(OTR) which could be seen a slight on his current value. Vince is said to be an actual mark for some of the old school guys like Superstar and Bruno for some reason although he doesn't actually follow the old school philosophy. He kept guys from his father's era in employment because he promised his dad that and kept his word. People like James Dudley(R.I.P.) are proof of this. Even people like Captain Lou Albano had it made until he challenged Vince's grapefruits and told him he couldn't fire him cause he was the captain.

Well, didn't the wwe want to release a "history of wwe championship" dvd at Christmas this year? The last set of scheduled releases did not include this title. Vince has the Bret dvd to have a cash cow for Christmas. I think the wwe may use Bruno as a large part of the "history of wwe championship" dvd if they still are working on it. You know, I never did notice that Vince never ripped on Bruno? I suspect it could also have to do with respect for his father's "Hulk Hogan". Vince may feel he had a lot to do with Hogan and Hart's success with his different approach to the business. After all, Bruno is indeed the true pioneer of his company. Staravenger, I kind of fall into the same category as you and I feel as a hardcore fan that this is quite interesting. If he straight shoots with a book I would love to see his perspective of the evolution of the company he put on the map and carried for 2 decades. He is a big jigsaw to the big puzzle of the history of wrestling.

This week's Observer states that Bruno met with Jim Ross and another WWE official. Negotiations are said to be going better than ever before and that Bruno seems much more receptive than before to coming back to the WWE. They want to induct him into the Hall of Fame, talked about releasing a DVD and a new book as well as him working with WWE 24/7. Bruno is adamant about not working at all with Vince directly. He is also concerned about how he will be perceived by others if, after all these years of harsh and personal criticisms, he works for the company again. What do you all think? Do you want him to work with the WWE? I say yes if it means a new book, DVD, and his getting the rightful praise he deserves. Also, would you think any less of him for going back?

Maybe Orton jobbing last night is opening him up for Chris Benoit. Orton wins the title the following month at the second biggest show of the year to the disdain of Triple H. You know they might do it. If Eddie could lose his strap to friggin Bradshaw, I wouldn't put it past them to have Benoit job in Toronto against Orton. If Triple H is gone in the fall for his movie the chance is there for Orton to really say he is the new man. The build would be Orton/HHH for Mania, but I agree that I can't see HHH being the face in all of this.

I think I can't win the title on a nothing ppv show that most people had no clue was even on tonight. I think it's better for me to get heat by beating Benoit in Toronto and killing off this Atlanta GA wannabe. Yeah, that's the ticket. Kill off his Canadian fanbase with a double whammy. ------Triple H backstage memo to Vince Mcmahon source Stephanie Mcmahon Seriously, as long as he remains entertaining and he has been since his match with HBK last December. He knows keeping the belt on Benoit the longer the better for the value of the title for when he regains it.

You have no nerve telling me how big the Rock/Hogan match was. I was there live with the crowd cheering on Hogan. I know what Hogan is capable of, and I am one of his biggest fans. My post wasn't directed at bashing Hogan. I love Hogan. But to say Hogan is a more talented wrestler then Kurt Angle is absurb. Hogan knows how the work the crowd better then Angle, but talented wrestler? No way. Being a hardcore pro wrestling fan that lives in Toronto I also attended WM 18 and was cheering Hogan over Rock. I never once said you bashed Hogan. I said that the IWC under-rates Hogan. I also never stated Hogan was technically superior to Kurt Angle either. Being a pro wrestler a large aspect of doing a good job is working the crowd and making them care and very few came on Hogan's level at his absolute best. Angle said that he had to completely do a reversal of training for pro wrestling since it's less introvert than the amateurs. You got to have synergy with the in-ring aspect and the audience. I'm not even saying Angle sucks or anything, but that Angle is not really superior to Hogan in terms of overall pro wrestling ability. It's apples and oranges anyways. Hogan is a brawler.

I'm loading up my shotgun to respond to what Ric Flair wrote in his book, not just about me, but about several other respected collegues. Mr. Magoo doesn't know what he's talking about. Bret Hart brethart.com Can't wait to see this response!!!!!!!!!!

Hogan is under-rated by the IWC. Hulk Hogan brought an aura to his matches that made them feel like an event. I always see the argument about Vince making Hogan because of the right timing and right place. If this was the case, why didn't Vince Mcmahon duplicate the Hoganesque levels of the 80's when he tried it with Ultimate Warrior, Lex Luger, and Diesel? The reason being that Hogan had "it" and those other guys didn't. Hogan regained his top star status when he turned heel in the nWo. Hogan just knew what to do and when which made him have impeccable timing. Look, what he did in 2002. Some might think it was all nostalgic related, but watch Hogan/Rock. Hogan helped to work the crowd to cheer in his favour since it was his return at Mania in the skydome. Hogan knew what he was doing. Ric Flair ripped on Ultimate Warrior by saying that he was the one guy he couldn't work his "work with a broomstick" enigma. However, Hogan and Warrior got a good match at WM VI. Hogan had to have something to do with that. If people can make the argument that Vince gave Hogan the monster push, then they would have to do the same with Kurt Angle. Angle got the super rookie season push where he won all the titles(Diesel '94 push). It can be argued he got the strap before he really deserved it. In fact, Angle stated on OTR in 2001, that some in the back felt that way and he understood it, but disagreed since he brought his Olympic credentials to the biz. Regardless, Hogan became the champ in 1984 because Vince capitalized on Hogan's popularity gaining from the AWA, Japan, and the Rocky movie. Vince knew Hogan was the right man to push. The same with Austin. Vince didn't make Austin. Austin had the character people wanted and Vince marketed and promoted him appropriately with "attitude".

I guess it comes down to what will happen at SummerSlam. I know some on the net feel Benoit will retain this sunday and then have a rematch with Trips at Slam where he will drop the belt. Personally, I don't see the point in that. It will be way too obvious Benoit will job at SummerSlam. I wouldn't be surprised to see Benoit lose because of Eugene actually and then we get Trips/Edge at SummerSlam. I agree about stretching things out where Benoit retains until at least the fall season. Anything else, this "main event" push of Benoit would be a big waste of time as he would just get shunted back to his old position of a good hand in the upper card/main event scene.

Too funny. Seriously, if WM 21 was Taker's last appearance I believe Orton killing the legend of the streak would be awesome. However, I think Taker might get a bye on "passing the torch" by Vince Mcmahon in terms of breaking the record. Vince might be loyal to the man and the character since he has been through the thick and thin. Although what exactly was he suppose to do? jump to wcw with the gimmick? Not to forget that Taker now has the excuse of a young buck in Brock Lesnar getting victories over him and not being loyal to the company.

Does the wwe give away this year's Great American Bash with the Vengence ppv telecast in the United States? They are here. Perhaps the reason for not showing the 10 man was that Owen and Pillman were on it. People might take that as the wwe trying to pocket off two deceased wrestlers. A stretch, but you know how the net can be.

I still don't trust them One week of doing SOMETHING can't erase all the crap they've done in the last few weeks. It's a start at least.

Well, when they're hot they're hot, but the trick that the "genius" Mcmahon hasn't figured out yet is to stabilize things not to have the highs and lows in such a discrepancy over the years. I think 1999 was an even better year financially. What were the numbers a year or two later? I also think it's more than just storyline, but the wrestler's character's fleshing out to mature that year. It's kind of a climax from the build up from late 1997 with the roster being added with the influx of the wcw guys like the Radicalz, Big Show, Jericho etc. jumping.

I think the wwe actually got it in late 1997(summer time it actually started). The wwe got so fake with the gimmicks in the mid 90's they turned people off. The wwe saw what the Canada/USA angle did for business and got more realistic. Vince came out as the real boss. They showed that there were things beyond just the wrestlers having matches. They incorporated the politics. The wwe from the Austin/Bret saga from Royal Rumble 1997 all the way up to Survivor Series 1998 got it I believe. Just look at the Attitude commercials back then. 1999 they threw it all out the window with the "get it" campaign in which they didn't get it. We like the illusion. A big reason for the initial success of the nWo was that it seemed like the wwe really set up this group to take down wcw. After that initial storyline tool the nWo got stupid past I believe March 1997. WCW did the same mistake the wwe did. I find it ironic that the wwe did the exact same thing a decade before in the 80's. They exploded from 1984-1988 with realism and then went Walt Disney and cartoonish and turned people away. I like the ideas being thrown to make the lesser shows seem more important. I don't understand why they accept those crappy ratings for those shows.

Hopefully, this is a case of card subject to change. What I also notice is that name of the tour. The title could go on Taker at SummerSlam for a last run maybe.

The Amazing Rando, I agree with you completely. When the wwe did kayfabe more heavily they would take those kind of things into account to keep the realism. Things on the main shows should effect the house show touring, but they seem to want to alienate certain aspects at one minute and then acknowledge it at another time.

Yeah, that's down to booking, but Rock was at his peak popularity in 2000 and the company felt he would always be that way which is why they booked him the way they did. Why wasn't Austin booked that way at his peak years or even Hulk Hogan? 1-2 years later the fans slowly started to turn on him. Guess who fans backed when it came to the dream matches between the icons? The men who always came out on top when it counted Hogan and Austin. I truly believe Rock deserved better and he still is the most selfish in the three. I'm not taking anything away from Triple H's fantastic year, but he did have a lot better booking backing him from having the Mcmahons as a foil in the background and stabilizing the wwe title from the hot potato days of 1999. The wwe was determined to make him a star and the man took the ball for a touchdown admittedly when Austin was gone. Do people remember the rumours that WM 16 was actually going to be the rematch between Rock and Austin if Austin wasn't injured? The wwe had planned for Rock to be crowned and passed the torch in 2000, but felt Triple H could get the rub since Rock was so over. It goes back to the face chasing heel champ scenario. The Rock did not have any strong heels to play off of if they gave him a strong reign starting at Mania. Benoit and Jericho were still being built up and that's why they faced off later in the year against Rock.