cabbageboy

I don't think Jones will dampen this movie. From the preview I saw before Revolutions it looked really good. Those thousands of ships alone made my jaw drop.

Here it is: Bound 2: The Revenge of Joe Pantoliano Or did he die in original? I can't remember.

I'm sorry, but this whole "Sauron is an eye" crap just won't cut it with me. Especially not after Saruman being chopped out of the final film. There is one huge, overriding problem with not showing Sauron: We've seen the guy. If Jackson hadn't already shown us Sauron in the first part of FOTR we'd have no real expectations of seeing him again. Besides, in ROTK Sauron DOES have a body so there is no excuse not to have him in the movie. He is not just an eye. The major problem of cutting out Saruman is that he's literally the only heel that anyone cares about. Everyone else is just some sort of orc, goblin, troll, wraith etc. that is easily defeated. In wrestling terms TTT didn't exactly leave the heels with all that much heat. They basically got the shit kicked out of them by 3 guys. I'm not saying Sauron has to start fighting people like those goofy Sauron vs. Aragorn rumors, but he does need to at least SHOW UP.

That's just deranged, haha. I haven't heard anyone really say this but the Wachowskis best movie (to me anyway) is Bound. I need to take issue with this modern day bashing of Return of the Jedi. There seems to be a movement to suggest it is a bad film or something, which is totally untrue. I can sorta see why people might not like the Ewoks, but there is so much in that movie that works: --The Jabba stuff on his ship. --The entire huge space battle to blow up the new Deathstar (basically the Zion battle). --Luke, Vader, and the Emperor...and the subsequent Vader face turn. You can question Vader being unmasked, but overall this is great stuff. But do NOT compare Jedi to Revolutions. Jedi wraps things up for you extremely well from the storyline perspective. The wrongs are righted, Vader redeems himself, the Emperor is tossed into the chasm, Deathstar destroyed, Han and Leia end up with each other, Luke sees his dad, Yoda, and Obi Wan in the ghostly vision. Nevermind the Ewoks, the story itself is extremely well told. Revolutions does actually entertain for most of the first 2 hours. Thing is, to finish the trilogy properly we need more than entertainment...we need explanation. Resolution. I mean if someone told you ahead of time that at the end of the Matrix sequels: Spoiler (Highlight to Read): Neo and Trinity would both die, but the Matrix itself would survive better than ever with the main heel (Architect) still in charge. What would you have said to this? I would have said it sounded like it would suck.

Well, the amusing thing is that I liked Revolutions a lot more than Reloaded mainly because it was a bit more straightforward and lacking in BS.

I'm baffled as to why they would cut this. To be honest there isn't a real good way to kill off Saruman. The book ending is unsatisfactory for a film, and anticlimactic to boot. Having Grima turn on Saruman early in ROTK is somewhat of a distraction and would mean the death of a major heel in the first half hour (which is never a real good thing). In all honesty they probably should have just had Saruman die in the Ent attack of Isengard in The Two Towers. Then in ROTK they just find his body.

Oh, in regards to the Sauron thing if they aren't having Saruman in the movie at all do they have any choice but to show Sauron? I mean, they'd have literally no main heel and can you imagine a 3 1/2 hour closing film not even having a main heel?

First off, a Saruman death scene doesn't need 7 minutes. You could have a short scene of Grima being pissed and they argue, then Grima goes for the knife, stabs him, then Legolas or someone kills Grima. Don't they at least HAVE to show Saruman dead though? I've seen a pic of him impaled on a wheel, at least show him dead and have the heroes mention him a bit. Then move on.

That is really the only way it could work. Just show Saruman and Grima both dead amidst the ruins of Isengard. I almost wonder why Tolkien himself just didn't kill off Saruman at that point (instead of the Scouring of the Shire in the book). But in ROTK I'd hope to at least see him dead.

I've read all sorts of rumors lately (ranging from imdb.com to aintitcoolnews.com) saying that Saruman has been completely cut out of Return of the King. No big death scene for him, nothing. Christopher Lee has just been cut from the final theatrical print. What does everyone think of this idea? I really hope this isn't true, since it would be throwing aside the guy who has been essentially the main heel in the first two movies with no fanfare. Unless they are restoring this to the EE DVD when that comes out.

Well the thing is, the Wachowskis just SORTA fucked it all up. I mean, if you sift through these sequels you would be able to find enough good stuff for 1 really excellent movie. I mean, I didn't feel ripped off after seeing either movie, but it's just that they made so many goofy script decisions that it can't possibly end with any satisfaction. Reloaded had some nice scenes with Neo against 100 Smiths and also the freeway chase, but it also had so many horribly boring (and ultimately pointless) speeches and conversations. And of course the notorious Architect scene that basically killed the series. However, Revolutions: Spoiler (Highlight to Read): --Had the wild Zion battle, which unfortunately had no one of any note fighting in it...why didn't Morpheus and Niobe arrive near the beginning of that? --Neo and Smith in the Superman 2 "Kneel before Smith" fight. --A generally better overall pace than Reloaded. That said it also had: --The lousy ending that resolved nothing (at least not in a way that viewers wanted). --Morpheus having his heat killed in favor of his chick. --Neo and Trinity both dying while the Architect and Machines only slightly tremble. All I know is this: the Matrix marks who pollute sites like imdb.com and badmouth ROTK need to shut the hell up.

Ouch. Revolutions did a good number of course but that is WAY down from the 122 million prediction I read. I think all the awful reviews and negative word of mouth hurt it.

All right, I went to see Revolutions yesterday. To be honest it was actually better than I thought it would be (then again I was expecting a disaster). It was quite a bit better than Reloaded if for no other reason than they SHUT THE FUCK UP and just let the action of the movie happen. But I gotta tell you, some aspects just sucked so much cock on so many different levels. Let's review: Spoiler (Highlight to Read): --Trinity sees the sun for the first time ever, then she and Neo crash and she dies. Nevermind that she died in the last movie and Neo brings her back to life. She dies for real in this. Yeah. --Neo fights Smith and Smith finally just kicks the fuck out of him (not even using his doubles for help). Frankly I think more people like Smith anyway, haha, but this is no way to end things. Smith actually defeats Neo and turns him into another Smith, then the Head Machine unplugs Neo and thus he is destroyed along with Smith and the clones. I'm still unsure exactly WHY this killed Smith and not just the Neo/Smith clone alone. --The entire Zion battle has no one of any note fighting in it. The sequence was stunning to watch but there is no emotional investment since it contains characters no one gives two shits about. The commander guy in the Aliens ripoff thing was cool though. The Kid however I was actively WANTING to die. --This film completes the whole character assassination on Morpheus that began in Reloaded. He literally did nothing in this movie but play 2nd fiddle to his chick. --I have no idea what happened to the Merovingian. He is sorta holding Neo hostage in the train station (via the Trainman) so Trin, Morph, and Co. confront Frenchie. The scene ends with a mega Reservoir Dogs gunpoint with Trinity aiming at Frenchie, making demands to let Neo go. Next scene is just Trinity getting off the train, no clue as to how that was resolved. Did they shoot everyone in the club, or did Frenchie just give in? --Back to the sunlight part. What the FUCK was that? I know they were going for a nice moment, but the very idea of sunlight existing above the smoke and scorched earth hurts the series on so many levels. Didn't Morpheus say that humans scorched the sky so that the machines couldn't use solar power? Further, the reason for using humans for energy is because of the sun being scorched. If all the machines had to do was go up another mile for sun energy what is the point of using humans for power? That 20 seconds or so literally fucks up the entire initial premise of the series. --The ending. Sweet Jesus. If I told you the ending to this entire series would be The Oracle (who I thought had died once she became a clone of Smith, but somehow she lived even though Neo and the other clones all die, explain that one Wachowskis) and The Architect (I covered my face once he appeared) have a short conversation in the Matrix where the Architect says "Oh, I'll just release anyone who wants out of the Matrix." WHAT IN THE NAME OF GOD WAS THAT BULLSHIT?????????? I mean we've come all this way, listened to all the rhetorical bullshit, seen major characters die, only to have the main executive heel (Architect) stay in power with no real threat to him now and basically he just throws them a bone by setting the 1% who want to leave free. Seriously, I can't see how they can stop the whole series at this point....NOTHING was accomplished. The Matrix is still around, Architect still chilling, and so on. Thing is, after this movie no one is going to want another one. I dunno, I don't guess it was all that bad or anything, it certainly wasn't dull once Neo got out of the confounded train station. **1/4 (if that rating exists) out of ****

Given the reviews that Matrix Revolutions is getting I can't see it getting nominated for much of anything. They might nominate some stuff from Reloaded, but that film wasn't bashed as much as this one. Either way, if ROTK wins best picture I can't see Jackson being too upset if he loses out on special effects.

Spoiler (Highlight to Read): This whole thing with Bane/Smith and Neo seems like a goofy way to make your hero look like a moron. Let's see the evidence: 1. The guy does a cheesy Hugo Weaving impression. 2. He calls Neo "Mr. Anderson" when no one else does. Early when I joked that Peter Jackson wasn't worried about a *1/2 movie, I was just going by what the local paper gave it. Revs is currently at 35% on rottentomatoes.com. The first movie gets 86% and Reloaded gets 73% I think. So far the LOTR movies get 94% and TTT gets 98%.

I don't think Peter Jackson is going to stay awake at night worrying about trying to top a *1/2 movie.

Here is one thing I don't get about the whole Neo/Smith thing: Spoiler (Highlight to Read): Why exactly does this kill Smith? I mean take a look at this. The guy survived Neo jumping inside of him to blow him up. He survived getting smashed by trains, shot, all this stuff. No selling galore. So now he jumps inside Neo and they pull the plug on Neo and it kills Smith too? If Neo didn't kill him in the first movie doing something similar I fail to see how this would kill Smith either. Anyone got an explanation that makes sense?

Hell I think the Big Show might well be the BEST guy on that team. (That was sarcastic by the way)

The entire "free will" argument wasn't exactly what I was talking about. Yeah that is great and all but what I was criticizing more than anything is botched attempts at characterization and plot. I actually had an idea for a truly cynical and downbeat ending here. It comes down to this: Neo and Co. destroy the Matrix and free everyone. Some people are confused as hell, but ultimately accept the truth when Morpheus explains it. Some just blow their brains out due to the sheer shock of it. And others are outright pissed that their safe world in the Matrix has been taken from them, so they start a riot and end up killing Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, and so on. Basically the ending is a state of chaos. While I don't think this is a very happy ending, it would be a plausible one based on what we've seen so far.

That was one of my main points on a similar Matrix thread. After Reloaded there was simply no good way to end this. I mean there isn't anything you can do that is satisfactory. Let's face it, when everyone first heard about sequels the initial thought was "Ok I guess they will have more fights and finally destroy the Matrix, freeing everyone." If that WASN'T the plan then why make sequels to begin with (other than to make a shitload of cash)? The whole Architect speech made it essentially impossible for them to destory the Matrix since..... Spoiler (Highlight to Read): 99% of the people tested accepted the Matrix, thought it was fine and dandy. Now, once you introduce this little plot device the entire series becomes somewhat clueless. Why are Neo and Friends doing all this? What is their goal exactly? Are they trying to free everyone from the Matrix? If so, aren't they kinda being assholes since most people prefer it anyway? It's like saying "Luke, 99% of the people think the Empire is A-OK." You simply cannot do this. It defies any sort of basic writing. The Terminator movies work because we see future scenes depicting a hellhole riddled by death and robots. Thus we have some investment in it, and hope that John Connor isn't killed (either before he's born or as a kid, and now as a young man) so he can save us from this apocalypse. I guess what I'm saying is that while the Wachowskis excel with CGI effects and oh so thrilling rambling dialogue they have seemingly no concept of how to write compelling characters and plot. For the trilogy to truly work the Matrix itself has to be depicted as a bad thing. This is a huge problem since the Matrix itself seems like a nice alternative to an apocalyptic hellhole. If you think about it Joe Pantoliano was completely right...but the thing is he SHOULDN'T be right! If we're supposed to invest our time in these people for 3 movies they sure as hell better be in the right, but I'm not really sure they are. I know the Wachowskis want us to think about all this stuff, but after thinking about it I'm just more pissed than I was before. Yeah you guys made me think, but did you satisfy or entertain me? I almost think the initial scenario was totally wrong. How about a total reversal of it? Machines take over the earth, but it's otherwise in good shape. Machines clear up pollution, environment is nice, etc. Thing is, to do it they had to enslave the entire human race and use them for energy. Oh and for their own amusement they plugged everyone into a phony world that is a total nightmare, an apocalyptic hellhole known as the Matrix. Of course there are a few people on the outside like Morpheus leading an underground rebellion (think of a more sophisticated Dennis Leary from Demolition Man, heh). And of course he recruits Neo and teaches him about everything, etc. in the hope that one day Neo can destroy the Matrix and free everyone from it. This simple rewrite now gives us: 1. Characters with actual goals we can sink our teeth into. 2. Despicable heels (well beyond just agents, who were already great heels) in the Machines. 3. A way to actually end this thing with Neo destroying Smith and the Machines and freeing everyone into a better world.

Well, Smith is the man. We all know this. I mean hell who doesn't have a big grin on their face when he launches into one of his "Mrrrrr. Anderrrsson!" spiels? You know, actually from reading about that ending it actually sounds somewhat better than those spoilers. The whole idea that: Spoiler (Highlight to Read): The Architect lets anyone go who actually wants to go is actually not that bad of an idea. The problem is that it seems like a bit of a copout ending. I mean, isn't this guy supposed to be a heel? Why is he just gonna suddenly decide "Hey, I'm tired of being a pompous, boring asshole who is enslaving the human race. Anyone who wants to go can leave." Who is this guy, Ashley Wilkes? I'm amazed that there seems to be an argument over whether Neo dies or not. When you can't figure out if the main character dies or not in the movie....that's a bit of a problem. I don't think the Helms Deep comparisons are accurate at all here. Helms Deep has Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, Theoden. In other words people we give a shit about. That's why Gandalf making the save works so well. The Zion battle has NONE of the main people fighting in it! The fucking Kid, this dude, another dude, that sort of thing. No one we give two shits about, so if they die who cares? You'd think that since Neo and Trin were off to negotiate that Morpheus would lead things in Zion...but no, he's just off with Niobe playing with himself. Oh, and another thing regarding the ending. Why have they been fighting for 3 movies if this is all it comes down to? I mean they could have negotiated a simple truce a long time ago, kinda like "Don't fuck with us in Zion, we won't fuck with you in the Matrix." By the way it got *1/2 in the local paper.

I don't actually think so. RVD first arrived and basically made Jericho his bitch in numerous matches over the hardcore title. Wasn't really a feud though. Then they had a brief world title semi feud mentioned above. They also fought at KOTR 2002 and then for the IC a few times since (ending with Raw recently) but I don't think they've ever had a real extended feud. Even though Jericho actually has won a world title I'd say RVD has mostly stomped him.

I don't remember the actual site address, hopefully Mr. J will hook you up. If not maybe check the past threads?

Yeah Mr. J. I remember your spoiler page. I haven't seen the movie yet but from the reviews I've read it all matches up with what your spoilers said. I'm actually planning to see it on Saturday with my brother since he'll be off from school. Also going with my friend Ian. Ian is necessary because we ranted at length in a restaurant about Reloaded after seeing it initially. Haha. Anyway, I tried to warn people about this. I really did. I kept saying that there was really no good way to end this thing. In a warped way I am eager to see the movie just to see if it sucks as bad as I think it will. I guess this is the Wachowskis new ingenious way of making money: deliver an absolute turkey and have people go see it just to see if it's really as bad as purported.

Ok, so the Matrix Revolutions comes out today. So far this thing is getting absolutely TRASHED by critics. I took a look on rottentomatoes.com and it's getting like 38%, which is horribly bad for such a highly anticipated film. Anyway, everyone post your thoughts here after seeing the movie. What did you like about it? Not like? And so on.