Is God fair?

January 15, 2003

Ok here is a question: If you read the bible, go through bible school/college etc....and you NEVER question a single thing you have learned, then do you truly believe the religion/doctrines/bible or do you just believe the PERSON THAT TOLD YOU the stuff?

January 15, 2003

Ok here is a question: If you read the bible, go through bible school/college etc....and you NEVER question a single thing you have learned, then do you truly believe the religion/doctrines/bible or do you just believe the PERSON THAT TOLD YOU the stuff?

Ermm....ok just to clear this mess I just created......the last post by BubbleBoy was actually meant to be from ME(NoCalMike) We both work at the same place, and I didn't realize he was still logged on, on this computer........SORRY bubbleboy....*forgive me*

January 15, 2003

"Do not accept my dharma merely out of respect for me, but analyze it and check it the way a goldsmith analyzes gold: by rubbing, cutting and melting it." - The Buddha in the Ghanavyuha Sutra.

Just thought that was appropriate.

January 15, 2003

Ok here is a question: If you read the bible, go through bible school/college etc....and you NEVER question a single thing you have learned, then do you truly believe the religion/doctrines/bible or do you just believe the PERSON THAT TOLD YOU the stuff?

I do read the Bible. I've been through Bible college. I have questioned many things in the Bible. I don't agree with everything that my profesors said.

Yet I am still hard-core for Jesus! And the Bible is still 100% the Word of God.

--breaks into song: The B. I. B. L. E. yes that's the book for me,

. I'll stand up strong for the Word of God,

. The B. I. B. L. E. !!!

January 15, 2003

..."let it be known to you all, and to all people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 4:10-12 The Holy Bible.

I think this is a cool scripture.

January 15, 2003

*fix error*

January 15, 2003

Dopey, that quote pretty much sums it up, however wouldn't it be almost necessary for ANY holy book to their god was the ONLY god?? I am does the Koran say, "ok there was mohammed and Allah, but chilling with them was this other guy, Jesus, he was ALSO god" haha

January 15, 2003

Well, the largest religion in the world (or if not, very close) has hundreds of gods.

January 15, 2003

Dopey, that quote pretty much sums it up, however wouldn't it be almost necessary for ANY holy book to their god was the ONLY god?? I am does the Koran say, "ok there was mohammed and Allah, but chilling with them was this other guy, Jesus, he was ALSO god" haha

I'd just like to add a jumbled mass of thoughts to this already jumbled mass of a topic.

1. Hell is NOT burning and imps and such. That popular vision is simply Dante's interpretation of it. What Christianity teaches is that hell is absoulute seperation from God, and thus from love. Heaven is total union with God, and thus union with everlasting love. It's not pearly gates or any of that Looney Tunes crap.

2. Christianity is the world's largest religon, followed by Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, and Judaism.

3. A sin can only be something you had total control over and knew was wrong. So the wartime scenario is irrelevent since you had no control over the situation. The best thing to do is reflect pray and try to attempt to exit the hole by working together rather than immeadiatly saying. "Time to eat oneanother."

4. I don't know what the Christianity hate is based on. Jesus' message at it's fullest level is simply this: "God loves. God will always forgive. Love eachother. Always forgive each other." It's a VERY hunamist doctrine.

5. There are very few religons out there that believe that you can only make it if you join us. Catholocisim teaches that anyone who lives a decent and moral life according to the laws and beliefs of the area in which they were raised/inhabit can go to heaven. Atheists can go to heaven. Voodooists can go to Heaven. THIS is what Jesus was talking about. He was telling the Jewish leaders who thought that they were born bbetter than everyone else that God is for ALL PEOPLE. That's why he helped the poor and sinners. To set an example for us and how we should behave. He never tried to sell anyone on him. He wanted his miracles to be a secret he didn't want to be a celebrity he wanted to fufill his calling. isn't the fufillment of our duty a problem EVERY human being must grasp with.

6. If you're a Christian be the best Christian you can be. If you're an atheist be the best one you can be. Just remember, none of us can prove any of this, but when you argue respect other people's beliefs even if you don't agree with them. I have never denounced atheism and I never will. Atheists can be great men and women just as Catholics can. Atheists can also be pieces of shit, but so can catholics, or Muslims, or Jews.

January 15, 2003

5. There are very few religons out there that believe that you can only make it if you join us. Catholocisim teaches that anyone who lives a decent and moral life according to the laws and beliefs of the area in which they were raised/inhabit can go to heaven. Atheists can go to heaven. Voodooists can go to Heaven. THIS is what Jesus was talking about. He was telling the Jewish leaders who thought that they were born bbetter than everyone else that God is for ALL PEOPLE. That's why he helped the poor and sinners. To set an example for us and how we should behave. He never tried to sell anyone on him. He wanted his miracles to be a secret he didn't want to be a celebrity he wanted to fufill his calling. isn't the fufillment of our duty a problem EVERY human being must grasp with.

So then how do you compare what you just said with the tripe, the utter crap, the total BULLSHIT that Dopey spouts? He is a TERRIBLE christian, and it's almost embarrasing to have him under the same umbrella of faith that I am in.

I DO believe that god is for all people, I DO believe that god has many aspects, and I DO believe that god appeared to people in a way that would work for them. His communication with the Jewish people fulfilled their need for a commanding ruler, his communication with the Buddhists fulfilled their need for inner peace. In the end, the message in almost all religions is the same. Granted there are some religions that are totally different, it is these Golden Calf religions that God mentions in the first commandment. But I believe that God is part of many faiths throughout the world, and thus they are still worshipping God, thus not going against the first commandmant.

January 15, 2003

The religion I was refering to in my last post was Hinduism. Zsasz has effectively ended this argument. I can't really disagree with anything he said.

January 15, 2003

O.k., sorry for being a bit late. And, because I believe there has been some confusion, I would like to state that I am not an atheist. I cannot say I don't believe in God, but I can't say I do, either. I'm pretty sure that means I'm agnostic. I'm just riding things out and seeing what happens.

As for the Christianity hate, I've run into two things. One is the whole history things, like the Spanish Inquisition, all done in the name of Jesus. But really, that's only used for the backup for number two, which is...well...Christians. Not all Christians, but those who just don't question anything. I've personally run into a LOT of really hardcore Christians, and those people pretty much made it so I'd never want to be praying beside them. The Christians that I have problems with are the ignorant “You’re all going to Hell!” Christians, with their fingers in their ears, happily doing whatever they can to crush hellspawn (as I was actually considered), because even if they do actually hurt me, they can always confess later to some priest, and POOF! All is forgiven. They’re the Christians that get massively offended if I say heck (as it is a euphemism for hell, or course), and say that I’m insulting every Christian simply by saying heck, and then 30 seconds later they’re calling things gay and retarded. My problem is people who think it’s a persons fault when they can’t dig through all the junk in every religion to find God, and my problem are people who say “Everyone is equal! Everyone is Grand! Well, except for that guy over there. And her? She’s a witch! Burn her!”

And so you know, Zsasz, I have no problem with devout Christians who’re o.k. with other religions, or lack thereof. So, considering your last post, it seems that you aren’t included in that little group I’ve been talking about.

January 15, 2003

Heaven is total union with God, and thus union with everlasting love. It's not pearly gates or any of that Looney Tunes crap.

Is there still individuality or nada?

Because I'd still like to be able to play a PS2 in heaven, but that's just me. *shrugs*

January 15, 2003

Hey, quick question, if a person never gets in a fight, and they go to heaven, and all they want to do is get in a fight, will God let him?

January 15, 2003

Heaven is supposed to be paradise. A lot of sin is undeniably fun, so it should either be that you can sin once you're in heaven, or God totally erases your desire to, which personally I wouldn't like. For example, you should be able to do drugs in heaven. If they aren't harming your body, they shouldn't be sin, and of course, they can't harm your body in heaven.

January 15, 2003

*Shoots thread*

it's dead.

January 15, 2003

I feel I should point out here that while living well is definitely promoted in Christian doctrine, Jesus said that the only way to Salvation and to the Father was through Him. Christianity is much more than simply living well.

Jesus wasn't there to tell the Jews they were doing a good job. He outright opposed them, and told them that they considered themselves far too high on the food chain. They conspired against him, Pilate sentenced Him, and he was crucified. He was killed, and three days later He came back, revealed Himself to His disciples, and left them the final orders to be free from sin and death now and go tell others that in Him, so they can be. In a nutshell.

Our living comes not from within ourselves as humanism doctrine would have you believe, but a true Christian's behavior is a result of a constant renewal and cleansing of His heart and mind by the direction of God in a constant dialogue. It is a progression of character stemming from changes that God is making in him. Most certainly not from our own direct abilities. If we could do it on our own, if good works or our best behavior could do it, we wouldn't have needed Christ in the first place. The problem of sin had to be dealt with, and the only way is by accepting Him in so that He can wash you clean in those matters.

I have discussed real Christian doctrine for days now here and with members of my family, and to be honest I'm edging close to being somewhat burnt out. It's been a constant bombardment. Why am I effected like this and Dopey doesn't seem to be?

Take note: Up until recently, Dopey's thrown out verses. I've been trying to minister out of my own experience and knowledge from my own relationship with Christ. Normally just writing about it here isn't much of anything to do. But the constant bombardment of it in my own home lately as well has left me tired of talking about doctrine and rules. At least for a couple of days. I'm going to just be with Jesus and rest. So, my replies here will lessen somewhat for a while, I sincerely hope I've at least gotten someone thinking.

in Peace,

SP

January 15, 2003

SALVATION!!!

---------------

The central theme of the Christian gospel is salvation. The gospel proclaims that as God saved Israel from Egypt and the psalmist from death (Ex. 15:2; Ps. 116:6), so He will save all who trust Christ from sin and its consequences. This salvation from sin and death is wholly God's work, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). "Salvation is of the LORD" (John 2:9).

Salvation delivers the believer from the wrath of God, the dominion of sin, and the power of death (Rom. 1:18; 3:9; 5:21; 1 Thess. 5:9).

---------------

Look folks, you can't find salvation (i.e. an escape from eternal damnation) in anyone else than JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth. All other religions/faiths/paths/...ect. will only lead you to eternal fire!!!

No one wants to hear it-- to bad! God does not care about what you 'Want' to hear.

JESUS of Nazareth did not relish the fact that He was going to the cross, but He did it because He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit, had a plan for salvation. JESUS went to the cross, died, and rose from the dead to show all mankind that HE is the only one who posses ETERNAL LIFE!!!

THE CROSS WAS TELLING YOU THAT GOD IS NOT JOKING AROUND ABOUT SIN AND ETERNAL DAMNATION.

I believe that all of you are suffering from Democracy syndrom. You are so used to voting on everything that you forget that GOD Almighty in Heaven is the Sovereign ruler of the universe.

God does not ask you permission to damn people to hell.

God does not ask you permission to save people from hell.

GOD rules. You do not.

The GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the GOD of Israel, will save His chosen elect people from eternal damnation, through JESUS of Nazareth. Everyone else...

January 15, 2003

I still don't see how it can be the path you take and not how to walk it, but that's just me. I don't want to hear that there are different paths. If there was/is just one, life would be easy and the way to heaven would be a synch. I don't believe there are.

I'm Christian (arguably) by the way, I just don't have much to add other than ask questions of my own.

January 15, 2003

I still don't see how it can be the path you take and not how to walk it, but that's just me. I don't want to hear that there are different paths. If there was/is just one, life would be easy and the way to heaven would be a synch. I don't believe there is *just* one.

I'm Christian (arguably) by the way, I just don't have much to add other than ask questions of my own.

January 15, 2003

I still don't see how it can be the path you take and not how to walk it, but that's just me. I don't want to hear that there are different paths. If there was/is just one, life would be easy and the way to heaven would be a synch. I don't believe there is *just* one.

I'm Christian (arguably) by the way, I just don't have much to add other than ask questions of my own.

January 15, 2003

I've noticed something. Being a Christian is sort of like being gay. Maybe it's not cool, and maybe you'll be mocked or even feel some animosity. But once you come out, you'll feel better. You have to be proud of Christ, just like you have to be proud of being gay. When it first starts out, you might just be bi-curious, and a little scared. You aren't sure what to expect. God is your lover, and he's very controlling. You're nervous about submitting to him, but once you do, you're filled with joy. People like rock stars might get drunk and have sex with men once in a while, but that doesn't make them gay, just like salvation isn't based on works. You have to make a long term commitment, with God as your life partner. And there are those who claim to be Christians, but still live a life of sin. These people are bi. They might like the sound of being gay, or what it has to offer, but they don't want to give up their old lifestyle. True salvation/homosexuality comes when God is your master, and you belong to him only. Just like it says in the Bible, the church is the bride of Christ.

January 15, 2003

I feel I should point out here that while living well is definitely promoted in Christian doctrine, Jesus said that the only way to Salvation and to the Father was through Him. Christianity is much more than simply living well.

Jesus wasn't there to tell the Jews they were doing a good job. He outright opposed them, and told them that they considered themselves far too high on the food chain. They conspired against him, Pilate sentenced Him, and he was crucified. He was killed, and three days later He came back, revealed Himself to His disciples, and left them the final orders to be free from sin and death now and go tell others that in Him, so they can be. In a nutshell.

Our living comes not from within ourselves as humanism doctrine would have you believe, but a true Christian's behavior is a result of a constant renewal and cleansing of His heart and mind by the direction of God in a constant dialogue. It is a progression of character stemming from changes that God is making in him. Most certainly not from our own direct abilities. If we could do it on our own, if good works or our best behavior could do it, we wouldn't have needed Christ in the first place. The problem of sin had to be dealt with, and the only way is by accepting Him in so that He can wash you clean in those matters.

I have discussed real Christian doctrine for days now here and with members of my family, and to be honest I'm edging close to being somewhat burnt out. It's been a constant bombardment. Why am I effected like this and Dopey doesn't seem to be?

Take note: Up until recently, Dopey's thrown out verses. I've been trying to minister out of my own experience and knowledge from my own relationship with Christ. Normally just writing about it here isn't much of anything to do. But the constant bombardment of it in my own home lately as well has left me tired of talking about doctrine and rules. At least for a couple of days. I'm going to just be with Jesus and rest. So, my replies here will lessen somewhat for a while, I sincerely hope I've at least gotten someone thinking.

in Peace,

SP

SP that was a very well-written and lucid statement, now I'll have a rebuttal.

1. Jesus DID NOT come to oppose the Jews. This is WRONG. Read your Bible does the quote "I come not to rewrite the smallest letter of the Law, but to bring it to it's completion." ring a bell? Jesus' mission was to complete the covenent the Lord made with Abraham. He was the New Covenent (hence the name New Testament) his Jewish faith was central to his character and teaching. His birth was the completion of alll that had been said in the Old Testament. jesus did NOT oppose Jews, he opposed hypocrites, and every religon has those.

2. "The Jews" did not conspire against Jesus. "The Americans" did not conspire against JFK. The only Gospel to use the term "the Jews" to describe Jesus' enemies was John. John was written at a period of intense hatred between Jews and Christians. It is concievable that the author took a pot-shot at the Jews. Remember, this isn't word-for-word. the evangelists were only inspired they still had their own human imput which is why the Gospels differ.

3. The necessity of Christianity has been debated for centuries SP. Odds are we won't find a conclusive answer debating on an internet message board, but here are my thoughts: To preach the beautiful message of total love and forgiveness and be a living symbol of God's love while he was on the cross, and then deny access to anyone who doesn't conform to a certain dogma seems odd to me. I think on the last day, God is more concerned about HOW your life was lived, not who you prayed to. He wants you to care for the sick, feed the hungry, etc. He doesn't discriminate.

4. cwm: if you don't like this thread, why did you bump it with that? Isn't that counter-intuitive?

5. For all the questions about Heaven: I've never been there, but I'd hope that eternal paradise and union with the joyous love of God and your family would be a bit more important than PS2. perhaps you can do whatever you like there: Act, dance, sing, become a swashbuckler, etc.

6. You're giving us a bad name. Don't be so dogmatic.

January 15, 2003

The last comment about being dogmatic was NOT intended for you SP, it was for Dopey who's being way too over-the-top.

January 15, 2003

Jesus wasn't against the jews. But He was against how they seated themselves so much higher than everyone else, hiding behind rules and regulations. So we're saying the same thing: he opposed hypocricy and the cowards hiding behind rules and regulations in the Church. I just generalized it because so much of the Jewish leadership at the time was like that. It may be more that the Jews came up against Jesus because he was calling them out on what they were doing.

A good life and good works are manifestations of a true Christian walk. Natural by-products of freedom in Christ. The New Covenant was meant to massively simplify things, not complicate them further. Your change in behavior is rooted in a full surrender to God. Everything is. Surrendering to the work of Christ and to a living, active relationship with Him.

That's it. That's all there is to it. Accept Christ and surrender to Him. Freedom comes in that. Will you sin afterwards? Yeah. It's pretty inescapable here on Earth. But freedom comes in knowing that it's forgiven, and that you can grow in the strength to combat sin and break free from it as you live.

Jesus said The Truth Will Set You Free. He didn't say The Truth Will Tie You Up In Legalistic Matters For All Eternity.

Set you free.

"Just believe in me. I'm the truth," he said, basically. "Believe in me, and freedom is there." (paraphrased from a whole)

I think at it's most core nature that's all there is to it. Surrender to God, allow Christ in, and live from that relationship. The changes, breaking free of sin, it's a process of LIVING from that. It's not complicated, it's pretty simple.

Just know who Jesus was, authentically. Fully God and Fully Man. That's what made it work in the first place. Holy, perfect blood was spilled. Know who God really is and enter into a relationship with Him through The Son. Holy Spirit is an amazing comforter and Counselor, and The Father listens and is on top of things like no other while Christ walks with you. God as a whole . . . an amazing force to live and grow with.

It's just that simple.

January 15, 2003

Jesus wasn't against the jews. But He was against how they seated themselves so much higher than everyone else, hiding behind rules and regulations. So we're saying the same thing: he opposed hypocricy and the cowards hiding behind rules and regulations in the Church. I just generalized it because so much of the Jewish leadership at the time was like that. It may be more that the Jews came up against Jesus because he was calling them out on what they were doing.

A good life and good works are manifestations of a true Christian walk. Natural by-products of freedom in Christ. The New Covenant was meant to massively simplify things, not complicate them further. Your change in behavior is rooted in a full surrender to God. Everything is. Surrendering to the work of Christ and to a living, active relationship with Him.

That's it. That's all there is to it. Accept Christ and surrender to Him. Freedom comes in that. Will you sin afterwards? Yeah. It's pretty inescapable here on Earth. But freedom comes in knowing that it's forgiven, and that you can grow in the strength to combat sin and break free from it as you live.

Jesus said The Truth Will Set You Free. He didn't say The Truth Will Tie You Up In Legalistic Matters For All Eternity.

Set you free.

"Just believe in me. I'm the truth," he said, basically. "Believe in me, and freedom is there." (paraphrased from a whole)

I think at it's most core nature that's all there is to it. Surrender to God, allow Christ in, and live from that relationship. The changes, breaking free of sin, it's a process of LIVING from that. It's not complicated, it's pretty simple.

Just know who Jesus was, authentically. Fully God and Fully Man. That's what made it work in the first place. Holy, perfect blood was spilled. Know who God really is and enter into a relationship with Him through The Son. Holy Spirit is an amazing comforter and Counselor, and The Father listens and is on top of things like no other while Christ walks with you. God as a whole . . . an amazing force to live and grow with.

It's just that simple.

I'd like to mention something before I get to the meat of this post: I assume youb are a member of a protestant denomination. I am Catholic. I'd like to ask you what you think of catholics in general. I consider Protestants to be followers of the same faith who choose to interpret the same words of the same man in a different way. Is your view simalar?

1. I agree with your entire first paragraph. You simply generalized in the original post by saying, "The Jews". You corrected it, and bravo.

2. A convertion to God is not a one-time thing. I find that fully converting to Jesus is a DAILY action. I mess up. I mess up a lot. But that's why jesus died for us. You speak as if you can simply say once that you believe and it's over. But you know as well as I do that being a Christian of ANY denomination is a daily struggle.

3. That isn't ALL there is to it. We must still live according to his rules. we can profess our love for Jesus all we want, but we must act according to is teaching as well. To not would be to go against the very evil he rallyed against: hypocrisy

4. Oh, don't get me wrong 80% of the Jewish laws in the OT are arbitrary and unnecessary, but I used that quote as a direct example to show you that Jesus was not anti-Jewish. He came for the Jews just as much, if not more, than he did for us. The Jews had been waiting for 2000 years for him.

5. You are right as Jesus as a comforter. Especially when you consider that he was fully human and divine. He KNOWS what we are feeling in our hearts. He knows what is like to be angry at those you love, but he controlled himself. He knows what it is like to lust, but he controlled his desires. He can help you daily.

God Bless

January 15, 2003

I agree with pretty much everything you said there, Zsasz. I'm a member of the Presbyterian Church in America denomination (Presbyterian itself isn't an actual denom). Which, Christian protestant denominations generally hold to the same doctrine, I think the difference lies in how they go about applying it to their daily living.

I admittedly do not know much about catholocism. I don't agree that a Priest is needed as a middle-man, but other than that I don't know enough to form an opinion. If they believe in the trinity (the biblical Trinity, some movements twist it, though I haven't come across any evidence that the catholics do), that Jesus was fully God and fully Man and that His sacrifice is the justification, then yes.

I agree that calling yourself Christian and not adapting to the living changes God is making in you is very hypocritical. It's like snatching a gift and running away with it without ever acknowledging the one that gives it to you or using the gift to it's full advantages at the instruction of the person giving it.

Catholic doctrine is the next on my list to dig into. At this point I think their applications and apparent (because I could be wrong) belief that you need a priest to come between you and Christ to ask for forgiveness, are different and perhaps too ceremonial and unneccesary. But at the core I have no reason to believe they do not have salvation.

January 15, 2003

Catholic doctrine is the next on my list to dig into. At this point I think their applications and apparent (because I could be wrong) belief that you need a priest to come between you and Christ to ask for forgiveness, are different and perhaps too ceremonial and unneccesary. But at the core I have no reason to believe they do not have salvation.

You are a bit mixed up, let me help explain a bit:

1. The priest is not needed for God's forgiveness. God's forgiveness can come from prayer, confession, etc. But he is needed for the Sacrement of Confession which is a very special way to ask God's forgiveness. A sacrament is a visable sign of God's invisible grace. it's just a TYPE of forgiveness which we hold very dear as Catholics.

2. The priest is not a "middle-man". He is there to act as Jesus did for his flock. he offers his interpretations of the Lord's Word, he concecrates the Eucharist as Jesus consecrated the Last Supper. He is there for spiritual guidence, and support.

3. The ceremony is an issue for many groups. I say: The ceremony has nothing to do with how we worship. When we pray, we don't say: "Nice candlesticks." or "He was great with that Eucjaristic Prayer, what a guy."

It's just a different way to worship. There is no less respect in our connection to God then yours

January 16, 2003

Thank you very much for clearing those misconceptions up. I've never had a great discontent with Catholics or anything so I've never felt a need to really research it very much. I've not had much reason to doubt the validity of their salvation, though.

In a way, I think that to do so would be to deny the salvation of whomever was in the Church before the protestant movement came along and that just seems wrong.

But yeah. How people hold ceremony is ultimately between them and God. As I've said, I'm not in the business of changing hearts. God is. If He's not bothering someone capable of hearing the Holy Spirit's counsel about something, I see no reason to, you know?

January 16, 2003

1. The priest is not needed for God's forgiveness. God's forgiveness can come from prayer, confession, etc. But he is needed for the Sacrement of Confession which is a very special way to ask God's forgiveness. A sacrament is a visable sign of God's invisible grace. it's just a TYPE of forgiveness which we hold very dear as Catholics.

Mr.Zsasz, this is the over the top one. How do you see this passage of scripture?

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

I ask out of curiousity, I am not trying to start a Protestant vs. Roman Catholic mini-war. All brothers in Christ should stick together. Granted, I am protestant to the tenth power, but I see no reason to fight it out to the death. If we disagree on something, well then we do. We can agree to disagree on certain issues, and still be brothers in the Lord.

But I would like your take on the 1 John passage.

Is God fair?

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