Someone enlighten me....

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Monumental embarrasement? Have you seen him on talk shows and stuff before? He's one of the few guys who comes over as intelligable on talk shows. For marketing purposes he's great, because he's an intelligent person. And I don't get the hate for his push other than he's a hoss. He had good matches with Lesnar and with Taker, he'll sell for others, he can take a loss. Monumental embarrassment= I hate hosses

 

Yes, because the odd talk show appearance is worth paying about 1 mil a year. The WWE clearly had big hopes for the big show yet each time they push him that push fails. He'll never be a serious champion or a draw and for what they are paying him that _does_ make him a Monumental embarassment. I won't put all the blame on him because part of it has been the way he has been booked over the past few years, but he doesn't do himself any favours by having bad matches (though admittedly, he has been doing well as-of-late, but they've been using him sparringly).

 

He's over, he still has the capabilities of good matches (show/Taker at NWO), he sels merchandise. I would say he's redeemed himself from pathetic. 2001- sure. 2002- better. 2003- can't see as much of a problem. Pathetic= I hate hosses.

 

Yeah, I'll agree with this. I don't get a lot of the Taker-hate on the board. I mean, I 'get' it - he doesn't put over guys, he keeps ahold of the spotlight, etc. etc. but he does work hard in the ring and he does get the pops to warrant his place on TV. I don't think it's a hoss issue though, I think this is more of a glass ceiling issue inwhich HHH and Taker are considered the worst.

 

Albert is better than most hosses. He actually has a move set, and if they did something with him he'd be worth something. Until then though he's doing nothing for anyone.

 

Albert belongs in a tag team. It gives him a chance to showcase his moves and limits his ring time. It may be too late for Albert, though. I say send him to OVW for a few months and bring him back repackaged with a new kid and form a tag team.

 

Once again with the Show sucks cause he's a hoss. So he's limited. Who else is he supposed to go against who'd be percieved as a threat? Benoit...never won the title. Not considered top title contender by non smarks. Angle...'Oh no, Angle must be a face when he returns'. Mr America...yes, but the smarks would piss all over it. Brock has made Big Show watchable again.

 

Well the WWE could, you know, put effort in establishing someone as a threat to Brock. Their two biggest attempts were Big Show and John Cena... and John Cenas push was totally ruined by Taker and bad booking (they had the right idea, but didn't execute it properly.) Big Show gets pushed because it takes little effort in pushing him - but it usually _never_ pays off in the long run because everyone knows the Big Show is not a champion.

 

Goldberg hasn't been booked that badly. And being put in with Ric Flair, Triple H and being on the verge of a monster push is being booked badly? Not for Batista it wouldn't have been.

 

When Goldberg gets boo'd in two of his big matches, then there's a problem in booking. *They've* admitted that he's been booked horribly. Batista just sucks. And I don't want to hear this "oh he hates hosses" crap, cause I liked Brock when he came in - Batista is just so freakin limited and doesn't have Brocks freaky strength to get me interested in him at all.

 

Or Benoit's match with Rhyno in the US Title Tournament, where Rhyno had to wrestle technically when he's a power wrestler.

 

He wasn't wrestling "technically". He was wrestling that "old school style" that the WWE wants their wrestlers to do. Which, evidently, means chinlocks, chinlocks, chinlocks.

 

In other words Rey Mysterio making Show look good to challenge Brock. NEARLY EVERYBODY HATED THAT! As soon as the hosses are made to look good and go against the talented guys, people will whine and complain again.

 

Everyone hated it because (a)it was a wreckless and needless spot that (b)was putting over a guy who didn't deserve to be put over another guy who ( c )was over on his own ability just so (d)they could start an angle which was already finished at the Royal Rumble. It had nothing to do with being a hoss, it had everything to do with *Big Show* (b) swinging *Rey* ( c) like a *baseball bat* into a steel post (a) to begin a feud with *Brock Lesnar* (d).

[Cherry Blossom Viscount 0]

The spot was needless because Show was actually over and didn't really need to be beating up little cruisers to get any heat. Show has been built wonderfully since Heyman started managing him and it's showing. The spot was a nice visual and a good way to get "HOLY SHIT! THAT GUY'S A FUCKING BASTARD HEAT!" but in the end people realize that hey, Show is big and he can do that so it rubs off.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

It was needless because it said that Rey Jr. could get thrown around like a lil bitch. We know that Rey is small, but we don't need to be reminded of it with such acts. Shit like that buries the cruiserweights.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

People jump against these big men like Show and Albert because THEY SUCK. They put on shitty and boring matches.

Taker sucks in the ring. And he does not draw anymore anyways.

People don't want to see these big goofs. It's shown by the total apathy of the fans to most of them. Hell they named the only reason that Taker is over.

Vince needs to realize that people don't want to see hosses that can't wrestle.

People want to see guys THAT CAN WRESTLE AND HAVE GOOD MATCHES. And if one of those good wrestlers is a hoss, then so be it. As long as he backs it up in the ring.(see Vader, Stan Hansen, etc.)

[Guest Vitamin X]

It was needless because it said that Rey Jr. could get thrown around like a lil bitch. We know that Rey is small, but we don't need to be reminded of it with such acts. Shit like that buries the cruiserweights.

Actually one of the things that ticked me off during Rey's initial feud with Angle was the constant referencing of him as a "12 year old" and then Angle solidly kicking his ass. Granted, he put him over and a job well done, but I think Angle could have lost the match while retaining his heat, or at least they didn't need to make Rey seem as if he was that small, because like you said it's shit like that that buries the cruiserweights.

 

Then again, I never understood the point of having a supposed 'cruiserweight' division since there's constantly "inter-division" matches between cruisers and heavy, and usually cruisers are made to look weak and unimportant. Which is why I agree with the cruiserweight title not meaning much, since it really doesn't- the message it conveys is "these guys are too wittle and cute to be getting their asses handed to them all the time" which I think is stupid, considering big guys frequently get their asses handed to them often in reality due to lack of conditioning, not enough speed/agility/flexibility, or that they workout for looks and to have big muscles instead of having muscles that can stand the endurance of a fight or that are built for strength.

 

But that's just me going on a rant..

[Guest Lord of The Curry]

How did Angle put Rey over? He tapped him out at SummerSlam and then pinned him clean two weeks later on Smackdown.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Well I felt Angle put Rey over with the quality of the matches..

[Guest Anglesault]

Granted, he put him over and a job well done, but I think Angle could have lost the match while retaining his heat, or at least they didn't need to make Rey seem as if he

There's no fucking way Angle could have lost that match and survived.

[Guest Nevermortal]

Spanky is anything but bland. If the WWE would actually let him have some mic time, you'd realize that.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

How hard is it to separate cruisers and heavies?

 

I mean, seriously, that shit is just fucked up. I can see the reason for the occasional mismatch, but 98% of the time cruisers should fight cruisers and heavies should fight heavies.

[Guest Anglesault]

How hard is it to separate cruisers and heavies?

 

I mean, seriously, that shit is just fucked up. I can see the reason for the occasional mismatch, but 98% of the time cruisers should fight cruisers and heavies should fight heavies.

I've said this many times, but I just really don't like the idea of a cruiserweight division. To me, it's full of people who have decided that they can't win the heavyweight belt. It's a consolation prize.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

How hard is it to separate cruisers and heavies?

 

I mean, seriously, that shit is just fucked up. I can see the reason for the occasional mismatch, but 98% of the time cruisers should fight cruisers and heavies should fight heavies.

One of the good things about the brand extention is that the vast majority of poor workers and hosses are on raw, while the smaller more talentes wrestlers are on Smmackdown. An over simplification, I know. But at least it keeps cruisers from being used as fodder for HHH

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Albert

Demott

Jones

Big Show

Bradshaw...

 

Smackdown is full of hosses (no coincidence that they have cruisers too)

 

I don't see the problem in a cruiserweight division because there is a natural distinction between cruisers and heavies, the problem is that stylistically there is _no_ distinction and this "division" doesn't divide anything in the WWE as cruisers constantly face heavyweights.

[LooseCannon25 0]

How hard is it to separate cruisers and heavies?

 

I mean, seriously, that shit is just fucked up.  I can see the reason for the occasional mismatch, but 98% of the time cruisers should fight cruisers and heavies should fight heavies.

I've said this many times, but I just really don't like the idea of a cruiserweight division. To me, it's full of people who have decided that they can't win the heavyweight belt. It's a consolation prize.

I dont see why anyone would have a problem with a cruiserweight division. It's like in boxing having Lennox Lewis fight someone like Arturo Gatti.....it's too much of a difference. There is a CW division because the guys are too small to challenge for the Heavyweight belt. There are different divisions in boxing, mma, wrestling.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Most of the indy "kids" who are 5'6" 180lbs are spot fest guys. Actually, the big man wrestler is a dying breed.

Havoc's back? To what do we owe this momentous occaision?

Is there a thread where he announced his departure? If so, where?

 

Anyway, I think a big man indy wrestler should learn from Brock Lesnar and go from there.

Yeah it was in NHB.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Monumental embarrasement? Have you seen him on talk shows and stuff before? He's one of the few guys who comes over as intelligable on talk shows. For marketing purposes he's great, because he's an intelligent person. And I don't get the hate for his push other than he's a hoss. He had good matches with Lesnar and with Taker, he'll sell for others, he can take a loss. Monumental embarrassment= I hate hosses

 

Yes, because the odd talk show appearance is worth paying about 1 mil a year. The WWE clearly had big hopes for the big show yet each time they push him that push fails. He'll never be a serious champion or a draw and for what they are paying him that _does_ make him a Monumental embarassment. I won't put all the blame on him because part of it has been the way he has been booked over the past few years, but he doesn't do himself any favours by having bad matches (though admittedly, he has been doing well as-of-late, but they've been using him sparringly).

 

Well, I'm not arguing with 1 million a year being hellaciously over the odds. The way they booked him in between pushes considering his earnings are the monumental embarrassment...the way I see it, at least Show is trying in the ring despite his limitations, unlike others who don't try to do anything and just cash their checks.

 

 

Albert is better than most hosses. He actually has a move set, and if they did something with him he'd be worth something. Until then though he's doing nothing for anyone.

 

Albert belongs in a tag team. It gives him a chance to showcase his moves and limits his ring time. It may be too late for Albert, though. I say send him to OVW for a few months and bring him back repackaged with a new kid and form a tag team.

 

I always liked the idea of Scotty and Albert as a team, if they used him right. Like when Grandmaster was with Steve Blackman. Making up for Blackman's lack of personality with comedy. Hell any heel midcarder with personality could help him out.

 

 

Once again with the Show sucks cause he's a hoss. So he's limited. Who else is he supposed to go against who'd be percieved as a threat? Benoit...never won the title. Not considered top title contender by non smarks. Angle...'Oh no, Angle must be a face when he returns'. Mr America...yes, but the smarks would piss all over it. Brock has made Big Show watchable again.

 

Well the WWE could, you know, put effort in establishing someone as a threat to Brock. Their two biggest attempts were Big Show and John Cena... and John Cenas push was totally ruined by Taker and bad booking (they had the right idea, but didn't execute it properly.) Big Show gets pushed because it takes little effort in pushing him - but it usually _never_ pays off in the long run because everyone knows the Big Show is not a champion.

 

The on-off face/heel/tweener/heel/can't be assed booking has just killed him. Back in WCW he was someone. And yes, Lesnar does need to be in peril a lot more. But the only person I can see as a threat is heel Angle. And once again, everyone wanted him as a face when he came back, but they don't book him right as a face.

 

 

Or Benoit's match with Rhyno in the US Title Tournament, where Rhyno had to wrestle technically when he's a power wrestler.

 

He wasn't wrestling "technically". He was wrestling that "old school style" that the WWE wants their wrestlers to do. Which, evidently, means chinlocks, chinlocks, chinlocks.

 

Well, when I say technically I mean 'more technically than usual'. Rhyno got over in ECW as a monster who could do the power and intensity stuff, but can sell and wrestle better than most hosses as well. Heel ECW style Rhyno could be a threat to Brock Lesnar when Heyman comes back.

[Guest thetrendsetter]

Rey Misterio is over, in part due to the fact that he's the oddity, He's small, lightweight, even compared to the crusiers, and is almost loved based upon his size. They had guys like Misterio back in the day...

 

They Were Called Midgets...

 

A few light heavyweights can get over, because they're a special attraction. But until these NWA/ROH guys pump up over 215-220, they're going to be stuck in the Light Heavyweight Rut. and signing 15 guys from ROH/TNA isn't going to solve the problem, because then you have to build to the unrealistic (from a non internet mark's perspective) idea of 5'8, 175 pound guys being the best wrestlers in the world.. If you put out 60 guys between 150-230 in the fed, and get rid of the big guys, where's the "Larger Than Life" atmosphere wrestling is supposed to have?

 

Kayfabe may be dead, Fans Know It's Fake, The Wrestlers Know The Fans Know It's Fake, The Fans Know The Wrestlers Know The Fans Know It's Fake. But you don't want to break the illusion everytime you see a "internet mark"...

Edited June 30, 2003 by thetrendsetter

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

How hard is it to separate cruisers and heavies?

 

I mean, seriously, that shit is just fucked up.  I can see the reason for the occasional mismatch, but 98% of the time cruisers should fight cruisers and heavies should fight heavies.

I've said this many times, but I just really don't like the idea of a cruiserweight division. To me, it's full of people who have decided that they can't win the heavyweight belt. It's a consolation prize.

I dont see why anyone would have a problem with a cruiserweight division. It's like in boxing having Lennox Lewis fight someone like Arturo Gatti.....it's too much of a difference. There is a CW division because the guys are too small to challenge for the Heavyweight belt. There are different divisions in boxing, mma, wrestling.

Boxing and the ilk are much moe power based. Rey couldn't beat The Big Show in a fist fight, but he could in a wrestling match by bouncing around and keeping out of TBS's reach.

[Guest The Mighty Damaramu]

Rey couldn't beat Big Show in an out and out fist fight. But a guy his size that knows how to fight could probably take a guy like Big Show to town.

[Guest Vitamin X]

How hard is it to separate cruisers and heavies?

 

I mean, seriously, that shit is just fucked up.  I can see the reason for the occasional mismatch, but 98% of the time cruisers should fight cruisers and heavies should fight heavies.

I've said this many times, but I just really don't like the idea of a cruiserweight division. To me, it's full of people who have decided that they can't win the heavyweight belt. It's a consolation prize.

I dont see why anyone would have a problem with a cruiserweight division. It's like in boxing having Lennox Lewis fight someone like Arturo Gatti.....it's too much of a difference. There is a CW division because the guys are too small to challenge for the Heavyweight belt. There are different divisions in boxing, mma, wrestling.

The reason why is because the Heavyweight belt is treated like the #1 and ONLY belt in the company, instead of sharing that status with the Cruiserweight belt.

 

Oscar De La Hoya for example, is (or was anyways) a widely respected lightweight boxer, on the same level as a lot of modern boxing champions. But in the WWE, The Heavyweight belt takes the place as the most important belt in the whole entire company, and like Anglesault said, it's more of a consolation prize for not being big enough to conceivably challenge for the Heavyweight belt.

 

And since when did Rhyno become a hoss? He's way too short to be a hoss, and talented at that.

[Guest nikowwf]

I also doubt that Vince McMahon could kick ANY cruiserweight's ass.

I find it funny that smarks, who know wrestling is totally fake, still believe their favorites would kick the ass of wrestlers they don't like. I remember the JERICHO WOULD KICK KEVIN NASH'S ASS thread from before.

 

Why would Spanky be able to kick anyone's ass? Because he's a good worker?

 

niko

[Guest Choken One]

Jericho took Goldberg down...Goldberg at least has some Fight training in him...

 

Jericho would walk all over Nash because it takes is a Kick to the knees...

[Guest nikowwf]

wow, you so missed my point....

 

niko

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

If the WWE restructured their divisions and actually put effort in developing and building said divisions, it would be possible to give each respective title value.

 

Of course that would would mean that the WWE would have to develop and build something... That's not going to happen.

[Guest nikowwf]

If they want Smackdown to be a viable brand, they need to build cruisers. That's my only hope. 2 to 3 matches on each Smackdown PPV will feature cruisers...they need them to be a selling point - at least a little.

 

niko

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

Vince will never do that.