WON Hall of Fame voting results

[Guest MikeSC]

Bret v UT was hardly "great" wrestling and Michaels, honestly, blows Bret out of the friggin' water.

Shawn better than Bret?!

 

Not a chance.

 

Bret's best > Shawn's best

 

Hart went through the motions in LOTS of matches.

And Shawn pulled a lot of shit too...

 

Bret is easily a better wrestler.

Shawn outworked Bret every day of the week. Bret v a slug was, at best, a 50-50 shot of being good.

 

Shawn v a slug was almost always good.

-=Mike --- who likes Bret's work

[Damaramu 0]

Ok I'm not going to respond to you anymore after this because it has nothing to do with the thread but yes any Benoit fan was baited.

And yes you are talking in a condescending manner which can be considered flame baiting.

So all in all....you're in the wrong just as much as me. But two wrongs don't make a right so.......

Now back to the thread....Shawn vs. a slug was not "good" it was just Shawn getting tossed around and bumping like a freak. Bret could do the pinball machine bumps to if he wanted. But you know he actually concentrated on making the match good.

[CanadianChris 0]

Yeah, that whole section's worth a look. They get some really good discussions going over there.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Can someone explain how Shawn vs. Slug would be any different than say TAKA vs. Slug or any cruiserweight at the time... cept for, you know, the fact that the slug might sell for shawn and that the match would be over 3 minutes and wouldn't be a squash...

 

In other words, HOW did Shawn -besides bumping his ass off- make these matches good?

[Guest Ray]

Shawn outworked Bret every day of the week. Bret v a slug was, at best, a 50-50 shot of being good.

 

Shawn v a slug was almost always good.

-=Mike --- who likes Bret's work

Shawn's matches against so-called slugs are quite overrated.

 

Bret/Austin was better than anything Shawn ever did.

 

I fail to see how Shawn "outworked" Bret so much.

[El Psycho Diablo 0]

Bret/Austin is a match that's been rated so highly it's been blown to almost stupid proportions.

 

The effect the match had can't be denied (the double-turn) but the match itself wasn't -that- great.

[Guest Ray]

Bret/Austin is a match that's been rated so highly it's been blown to almost stupid proportions.

 

The effect the match had can't be denied (the double-turn) but the match itself wasn't -that- great.

Not that great?

 

Why?

 

 

 

I still say Shawn has never had a match that good.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

This is the only board I know where people think Shawn is overrated. I mean sure, he wasn't one of the best of all time, but he's done enough to be in the Hall of Fame. You gotta remember, he didn't have the best workers in the federation to work with back in his day. He didn't have the likes of Eddie, Benoit, Jericho, Angle to work with. He had guys like Sid, Diesel, Razor, Marty, and he made them look good. He did the have the voted match of the year for 93-97, something Bret never did. Was Shawn just a bumping machine? That was most of his thing, but I thought he put on a really good match with Jeff Jarret.

 

From an entertainment and accomplishments level, he definetly deserves it. The article clearly shows that although he might not of always done what was right for the company, no one in the buisness was questioning his workrate, just some smarks who don't like him. As for the backstage stuff, I guess it comes down to whether or not you think Pete Rose should be in the hall of fame.

[Guest Ray]

He did the have the voted match of the year for 93-97

Anyone who voted that way was wrong, I say.

 

For US work, Vader/Sting was the best of 93.

Bret/Owen in 94

Austin/Bret in 96 and 97

 

Shawn didn't have any better matches than those in those years.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

'Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. Bret 'The Hitman' Hart, Wrestlemania 13.

 

My thoughts on this match are funny. When I first saw it I liked it. The blood, the intensity, the pass-out finish... All great stuff. Then when I became a, ahem, smark I went around praising it like it was the second coming of Jesus. Then I despised it. Not despised it so much as picked holes in it. "The Psychology ISN'T THERE~!' I said.

 

I figured the match was a 'Traditionalist' vs. 'Anarchist', or 'Old School' vs. 'New School' sort of thing and expected the match to be presented that way. But nowhere in the match did they distinguish this. It was a full out brawl with no distinguishable psychology. Bret wasn't cunning with his Old Dog Techniques to keep the young buck in Austin down. And Austin didn't whip out any 'new tricks'. Since the match didn't reflect the 'story' I assumed that it was not fully effective. Sure it was a great match, but it had nothing you could grasp and show another person what made it great.

 

It took a conversation with another wrestling fan to put the match into focus.

 

Bret Hart was a Traditionalist turned Anarchist... He became what he hated and it showed in that match. The match had no traditional 'New' vs. 'Old' psychology because Bret Hart lost his Tradition, it was an all out brawl. He lowered himself to the levels of Austin while still claiming to be the Excellence of Execution. It was his hypocrisy which turned him. This is the main focus, this match was about Bret Hart.

 

Steve Austin's 'never say die' attitude would be the first choice people would make for 'the story of the match', yet it is Bret BECOMING Steve Austin which 'made' this match what it was. He was the foil to Austin’s Anti-Hero. There is no greater evil than a man giving up on his principles. Austin kept consistent, he raised hell and was proud of it. Bret spoke sweet in public, but behind closed doors was a different story.

 

Stone Cold was absolutely gold in this match. From his head swaggering to his limping 'salutes' to referee Ken Shamrock when asked if he wanted to quit, Steve Austin played his role to perfection. The most memorable moment in the 'attitude' era is the bloody face crying out in pain yet never saying die. Even before the word 'Attitude' was muttered at Titan Towers, there was the face of a new generation waiting to change the industry.

 

People always label this match as 'the double turn' match. Just as they label Andre vs. Hogan 'the torch passing' match. Yet, just like that match a decade before, all this did was solidify what was already known. Austin was quickly gaining a following and Bret was slowly losing his sheep. I am not saying that this match was not crucial, it's just that we should not romanticize it as being something that just sprung up over night. The fans cheered both upon their arrivals to the ring, and gave Bret a nice applause for winning the match, yet it was Austin's name whom they chanted on his limp out of the ring. By the end of the show Bret was a definite heel and Austin was a definite face.

 

This match was one of the most important matches in Wwf history and its effects still ripple today, 5 years later. ****3/4

[Shanghai Kid 0]

It's all 'opinion' on which matches are better when your rating good matches. Bret/Owen was good, but some would say that HBK/Razor was better. Austin/Bret in 96 was good, but some might say that HBK/Mankind was just as good if not better. Austin/Bret 97 was good, but once again, some might say that Hell in a Cell was better. Nobody can really say that their opinion is fact, all I know is that the matches were voted on by the people, and that's what the majority voted.

[Guest MikeSC]

Can someone explain how Shawn vs. Slug would be any different than say TAKA vs. Slug or any cruiserweight at the time... cept for, you know, the fact that the slug might sell for shawn and that the match would be over 3 minutes and wouldn't be a squash...

 

In other words, HOW did Shawn -besides bumping his ass off- make these matches good?

Shawn did what you have to do in a big man v small man match --- the small man has to bump like man to cover up the plodding nature of the big man. He made the guys he faced on PPV look like gods --- and that is the ONLY thing I care about. Was he a dick backstage? Who cares?

 

What I want to know is why Michaels gets no credit for dragging good matches out of a horribly uninspired Vader, a piss-poor Bulldog, an inept Nash, horrendous Vicious, average (at best) Jarrett and a decent Undertaker --- but Misawa and Liger get lots of credit for facing significantly more talented opposition.

 

Easy to look good when you're facing the cream of the crop. Face the dregs and see how good Misawa or Liger would look.

-=Mike --- and Liger ALSO did a lot to REALLY hurt the IWGP Jr division in 2000 (I believe that was his year of squashing everybody)

[Guest MikeSC]

Shawn outworked Bret every day of the week. Bret v a slug was, at best, a 50-50 shot of being good.

 

Shawn v a slug was almost always good.

-=Mike --- who likes Bret's work

Shawn's matches against so-called slugs are quite overrated.

 

Bret/Austin was better than anything Shawn ever did.

 

I fail to see how Shawn "outworked" Bret so much.

Shawn's 2 best matches --- v Mankind at Mind Games and v UT at Badd Blood, were hurt because Russo has this thing about screwjob finishes when they are not needed.

 

BOTH of those matches were better than Hart v Austin at WM13.

-=Mike

[Shanghai Kid 0]

It's all about opinion. Personally, I think Shawn has a very good catalogue of matches, maybe one of the best in WWF history.

 

here's some of Shawns decent to good matches.

Shawn vs Tito Santana

Shawn vs Jeff Jarret

Shawn vs Marty Jannety (Raw)

Shawn vs Bret Hart (Survivor Series 92)

Shawn Micheals vs Razor Ramon (ladder match)

Shawn Micheals vs Razor Ramon (rematch)

Shawn Micheals/Diesel vs Razor/1-2-3 Kid (Action Zone)

Shawn vs Diesel (Wrestlemania)

Shawn vs Diesel (Good Friends Better Enemies)

Shawn Micheals vs Bulldog

Shawn vs Bulldog

Shawn Micheals vs Ric Flair

Shawn Micheals vs Macho Man

Shawn vs Vader

Shawn vs Mankind

Shawn vs Sid

Shawn vs Sid

Shawn vs Bret Hart

Shawn vs Bret Hart

Shawn vs Bret Hart

Shawn vs Austin

Shawn vs Austin

Shawn vs Austin

Shawn vs Undertaker

Shawn vs Undertaker

Shawn vs Undertaker

Shawn vs Mankind

Shawn vs Owen Hart

Shawn vs Owen Hart

Shawn vs HHH

Shawn vs Jericho

Shawn vs Jericho

 

Those are just off the top of my head, and don't even include his matches as a Rocker.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

While ultimately it comes down opinion, if you don't know what makes a match good and what makes a match bad - then your opinion is worthless.

 

I'm sorry, Shawn gets "no credit" in carrying Sid and Nash? The Fuck? Where the fuck have you been for the past 6/7 years? I want to know how, structurally, psychologically, and technically, how HBK carried these matches. Cause any crusierweight can bump his ass off and make big men look good.

 

Shawn bumped for them, but that isn't exactly anything special - TAKA could have bumped the same way (or even better). I don't get this notion of Shawn making them look like Gods as Nash and Sid are mocked on a daily basis and what is talked about in the match isn't their effort - it's Shawns'. The best carry-jobs are the ones you can't really see right away (Kawada/Albright, Hart/Bulldog).

 

I'd like to hear how the Foley and Taker matches were superior to Austin/Hart.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

I would think Scott Kieth would know what makes a good match (he's wrote a few books), and he ranked the ladder match over Bret/Owen.

[Guest MikeSC]

While ultimately it comes down opinion, if you don't know what makes a match good and what makes a match bad - then your opinion is worthless.

 

I'm sorry, Shawn gets "no credit" in carrying Sid and Nash? The Fuck? Where the fuck have you been for the past 6/7 years? I want to know how, structurally, psychologically, and technically, how HBK carried these matches. Cause any crusierweight can bump his ass off and make big men look good.

 

Shawn bumped for them, but that isn't exactly anything special - TAKA could have bumped the same way (or even better). I don't get this notion of Shawn making them look like Gods as Nash and Sid are mocked on a daily basis and what is talked about in the match isn't their effort - it's Shawns'. The best carry-jobs are the ones you can't really see right away (Kawada/Albright, Hart/Bulldog).

 

I'd like to hear how the Foley and Taker matches were superior to Austin/Hart.

Any CW CAN do it --- but only Shawn pulled that little trick off. Heck, Shawn had a better match with Sid than Benoit ever did. You can say "anybody CAN do it" --- but only Shawn DID it.

 

How were HBK v Foley and HBK v UT superior to Austin v Hart? Faster paced and better psychology. Hart v Austin at WM XIII was good --- but as somebody has already pointed out, few matches are more overrated.

-=Mike

[Guest Ray]

HIAC better than Austin/Bret?

 

No fucking way.

 

HIAC is vastly overrated. Shitty offense from Taker, Shawn overselling all of it, Taker selling nothing, stupid finish, POINTLESS GIMMICK BECAUSE THEY GOT OUT SO EASILY.

 

HIAC doesn't even come close to WM13

[Shanghai Kid 0]

I think if you take away the finish from Austin/Bret, it's not as good.

[godthedog 0]

boy did this thing ever spiral out of control. we go from shawn being overrated, to what's a carry, to benoit being overrated, to shawn being better than bret.

 

so, the discussion at hand...

How were HBK v Foley and HBK v UT superior to Austin v Hart? Faster paced and better psychology. Hart v Austin at WM XIII was good --- but as somebody has already pointed out, few matches are more overrated.

you're not backing anything up here. the idea in an argument is to start at a place where you both agree, then move by logical steps to your position so the other person can't help but agree. this is just tossing claims out there.

[godthedog 0]

HIAC is vastly overrated. Shitty offense from Taker, Shawn overselling all of it, Taker selling nothing, stupid finish, POINTLESS GIMMICK BECAUSE THEY GOT OUT SO EASILY.

shawn's overselling=problem

 

taker selling nothing=not a problem. worked perfectly into taker's gimmick, and the fact that he was pissed about getting screwed out of the title. the idea of the match was shawn trying everything he possibly could to weasel out of his punishment, and NOTHING working. the sit-up after the sweet chin music was quite the thing to behold.

 

taker's offense=don't remember anything really bad from him.

 

got out so easily=what the hell are you talking about? how was that an easy way out? shawn assaulted a cameraman & had to make a run for it while they were trying to get him out. that's genius. and the gimmick was not rendered pointless by it. they used the cell about as well as it could be used. shawn was about as good as it gets at finding creative ways to utilize the gimmick of a match.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Um, you didn't really explain ANYTHING there. "Faster Paced and More Psychology" ?? Well Austin and Hart had a gajillion more workrate and loads of moveset... You made Hollow Points, fill them up. If you have to re-watch the matches, go ahead, this doesn't have to be settled in one night.

 

SKeith isn't exactly the best authority when it comes to match ratings...

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Ravishing, you did nothing to backup your argument either. And SK might not be the best authority, but I'm sure he knows more than you.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Well considering *I'm* the one asking for SC to explain (or anyone else, for that matter... feel free), I don't have to... do I??

 

Besides, I already gave an explaination to how good the story of the match was, it's probably the deepest storyline the WWE has done (Hart/Piper had more layers, but Austin/Hart was pretty original). Shawns big matches basically consist of "can he get out alive"...

[Damaramu 0]

Ravishing, you did nothing to backup your argument either. And SK might not be the best authority, but I'm sure he knows more than you.

Why b/c he writes for a website? I'm pretty sure that if RRR had the exposure that SK did then he could probably get a book to. When you have a bunch of people running around supporting your opinion as godly then people take notice...even if your opinion is shit.

[Guest TonyJaymzV1]

Skeith may have written books, but that doesnt make him an "expert" hell, his books sucked anyways.

 

oh and if anyone should write for a website, its RRR. In the next couple days he's gonna be sick of me asking him MMA questions...

 

like: where can I find win/loss/draw records for fighters?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

www.sherdog.com

 

it has a fight finder on the left side of the screen.

 

www.pridefc.com also has one as well, but only w/ people who have participated in pride events (it's based on the sherdog stats)

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Hey Mighty, do you know a Optimus Schwab?

[Damaramu 0]

???????????

 

Anyways.......

[Guest TonyJaymzV1]

Thanks RRR