WON Hall of Fame voting results

[Lord of The Curry 0]

But he's in the HOF right? So why is it even a debate for Shawn to be in it?

1) Michaels body of work involves wrestling one style and not doing it as well as people would like to think.

2) Michaels (along with Nash) almost bankrupted the company during his run as champion.

3) Michaels political maneuvering and refusal to jobbing should also be taken into consideration IMO, even if it isn't.

 

Those three strikes should have been enough that he never got in.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Jumped in late. To the Benoit hater guy:

 

"Carrying" is a legit term.

 

See 10/25/95 Kawada/Albright, anyone of the numerous Albright/Takada matches, 4/6/95 Misawa/Kawada, etc to see someone carrying his opponent.

 

Tim

[Shanghai Kid 0]

1) Micheals work did not involve one style. He could work a ground style as well as high flying.

 

2) The bankrupting thing can't all be put on one person. He was champ at a time when interest was already down from the fans, and he had to compete with the NWO. Bret Hart wasn't exactly a drawing champion either.

 

3)His backstage attitude shouldn't interfere with his qualifications as a worker.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I meant the "Punch Kick Punch Kick Submission Kick Finisher" style of the WWE.

 

Why shouldn't his backstage attitude influence the final decison? Why shouldn't they play a factor?

[Ultra Violence 0]

because they might *shock horror* disagree with Vinnie Mac

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

*Also jumping in late*

 

HBK still doesn't belong in there.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Good call, bps.

 

Have a trophy.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

*Jumps back in*

 

Sakuraba will be a first ballot HOF next year.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Shawn could work the ground?

 

Care to explain?

 

Tim, has seen Shawn work "by the numbers, pedestrian" mat work with Bret a couple of times.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

I'm surprised Ventura & Gorilla aren't in, based on the strength of their commentary work. Both are generally regarded as among the better/best commentators.

[Guest Loss]

There are a lot of strong cases to be made for Shawn, but his ability to work the mat isn't one of those cases. If you look more recently at the Jericho series, they started off each match with some rolling around on the mat, but it didn't build toward anything. It was just to try to emphasize that it was a "wrestling" match and didn't really serve any purpose beyond that.

 

Compare this to Angle/Benoit at the Royal Rumble where the entire purpose of the opening mat work was for Benoit to tease the sharpshooter, so that later in the match, he could actually apply the move and get a pop for it. It built, it was a mini-story within the match, and the crowd reacted exactly how they were set up to react.

 

If Shawn teased, let's say, a figure four in the opening matwork and continued working on Jericho's legs throughout the match and finally locked in the figure four, I guarantee you the crowd would have bought the hold as a finisher and it would have gotten a strong reaction.

 

I will admit though, that this isn't a Michaels-unique problem, as the majority of the mat work I've ever seen goes nowhere.

[Guest MikeSC]

HIAC better than Austin/Bret?

 

No fucking way.

 

HIAC is vastly overrated. Shitty offense from Taker, Shawn overselling all of it, Taker selling nothing, stupid finish, POINTLESS GIMMICK BECAUSE THEY GOT OUT SO EASILY.

 

HIAC doesn't even come close to WM13

And I whole-heartedly disagree.

-=Mike

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

HIAC better than Mania 13's Austin/Bret?

 

...

 

HA...HAHA...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Guest MikeSC]

boy did this thing ever spiral out of control. we go from shawn being overrated, to what's a carry, to benoit being overrated, to shawn being better than bret.

 

so, the discussion at hand...

How were HBK v Foley and HBK v UT superior to Austin v Hart? Faster paced and better psychology. Hart v Austin at WM XIII was good --- but as somebody has already pointed out, few matches are more overrated.

you're not backing anything up here. the idea in an argument is to start at a place where you both agree, then move by logical steps to your position so the other person can't help but agree. this is just tossing claims out there.

Michaels v Mankind was a very solid, very fast match with minimal restholds and good psychology as Shawn had to face off with the psycho who would cripple himself if it could hurt you, too. Why a screwjob finish was booked is just beyond the pale.

 

As for HIAC, it was ALL psychology. Shawn threw everything he had at the furious UT and UT simply beat the snot out of him. Shawn made UT look like a friggin' God in the ring for that match as he made EVERYTHING UT do look like it nearly killed him.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Um, you didn't really explain ANYTHING there. "Faster Paced and More Psychology" ?? Well Austin and Hart had a gajillion more workrate and loads of moveset... You made Hollow Points, fill them up. If you have to re-watch the matches, go ahead, this doesn't have to be settled in one night.

 

SKeith isn't exactly the best authority when it comes to match ratings...

I disagree. Hart v Austin was a good match, but I thought their match at Survivor Series was better and the finish is the reason it is a classic.

 

Movesets are the most overrated things one can mention.

 

BTW, how is Keith's opinion less relevant than yours? If I should ignore his opinions --- which I do --- why on God's earth should I listen to your opinion?

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Ok...anyways Shawn.

Yes Shawn did do it. He was the cruiserweight that got to bump for the big men and got them to sell for him. But that still doesn't make him any better than the others. I mean it's like "Yeah I did it but anyone could've done it. I was just in the right place at the right time!"

Plus if you wanna compare Shawn to cruiserweights he's not even in the Top 10 of Greatest...hell he's not in the Heavy Top 10....

Until the others drag matches out of slugs, then yes, Shawn is the best of the bunch for having done it. In his prime, he was every inch as good as Flair was in his prime.

 

And probably as big a dick.

-=Mike

[bob_barron 0]

The whole match itself is classic.

 

From the brawling ALL the way into the crowd, to Austin just destroying Bret with a kick to the balls to Austin tapping an artery.

 

Bret's daughter covering her eyes, Austin screaming while in the Sharpshooter, Austin refusing the ref's help and giving him the Stunner.

 

Now THAT'S a classic

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

HBK as good as Flair.

 

...

 

HA...HAHA...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Keep 'em coming man...it's getting hard to see the screen through the tears of laughing so hard.

[Guest Trivia247]

The whole match itself is classic.

 

From the brawling ALL the way into the crowd, to Austin just destroying Bret with a kick to the balls to Austin tapping an artery.

 

Bret's daughter covering her eyes, Austin screaming while in the Sharpshooter, Austin refusing the ref's help and giving him the Stunner.

 

Now THAT'S a classic

definately agree.

[bob_barron 0]

Ok...anyways Shawn.

Yes Shawn did do it. He was the cruiserweight that got to bump for the big men and got them to sell for him. But that still doesn't make him any better than the others. I mean it's like "Yeah I did it but anyone could've done it. I was just in the right place at the right time!"

Plus if you wanna compare Shawn to cruiserweights he's not even in the Top 10 of Greatest...hell he's not in the Heavy Top 10....

Until the others drag matches out of slugs, then yes, Shawn is the best of the bunch for having done it. In his prime, he was every inch as good as Flair was in his prime.

 

And probably as big a dick.

-=Mike

Bret Hart dragged better matches out of Diesel then Shawn Michaels ever did.

[Guest MikeSC]

Bulldog was not an absolute slug in 1997.

 

This is the guy who put on a MOTYC in February of 1997 against Owen, was involved in another MOTYC on RAW in 1997 and had many great matches that year.

 

1998 was when injuries and abuse caught up to him and he became an absolute slug.

 

Bret Hart also got terrific matches out of Taker-and he's better then him.

Um, go back and REWATCH his work from 1997. Bulldog was nigh useless, with the exceptions of the Owen match, his tag match v Asutin & HBK, and his match with HBK at KOTR.

 

Bret v UT was hardly "great" wrestling and Michaels, honestly, blows Bret out of the friggin' water. Hart went through the motions in LOTS of matches.

-=Mike

I have seen many of Bulldog's matches from 1997.

 

And he faced HBK at King of the Ring 1996 NOT KOTR 1997.

 

He also dragged a decent match out of Ken Shamrock at Summerslam 1997.

 

I think someone who had a MOTYC in 1997, and was involved in a tag MOTY in one year can hardly be considered "useless slug."

 

And rewatch the KOTR 96 match- HBK isn't doing all the work

You're right. My mistake. Bulldog's 1997 was basically ONLY his match w/ Owen in February for the first Euro Title and losing the tag straps to Austin & HBK on RAW. Nothing else approached that. His loss of the Euro Title was close --- but it was considerably worse than their previous efforts.

 

And he dragged a "decent" match out of Shamrock at SummerSlam? That was one of Shamrock's worst matches of the year on PPV's (his TV work was worse than his PPV work). I don't blame Davey for that as Ken was inept --- but don't call it a "good" match. It has to be something that is FAR above just about anything the guy did at the time. He can have a MOTYC in 1997 and have a tag MOTY the year prior --- but those matches were FAR better than ANYTHING else he did, so yes, I can say he was a slug.

 

Shawn v Vader at SSlam blew ANYTHING Vader had done in his entire WWE stint out of the water.

 

Shawn v UT was considerably better than UT's other matches --- including his matches w/ Bret (the O.N.O match is singularly over-rated).

 

At KOTR '96, Michaels is making Bulldog look like a million bucks. He's doing the vast majority of the work.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Shawn outworked Bret every day of the week. Bret v a slug was, at best, a 50-50 shot of being good.

 

Shawn v a slug was almost always good.

-=Mike --- who likes Bret's work

Shawn's matches against so-called slugs are quite overrated.

 

Bret/Austin was better than anything Shawn ever did.

 

I fail to see how Shawn "outworked" Bret so much.

Shawn's 2 best matches --- v Mankind at Mind Games and v UT at Badd Blood, were hurt because Russo has this thing about screwjob finishes when they are not needed.

 

BOTH of those matches were better than Hart v Austin at WM13.

-=Mike

Vince Russo wasn't even too involved with the booking then.

 

You can clearly see Vince McMahon change the finish on the fly at the commentary table

I thought Russo was pretty much in charge in 1997. I realize, now, that Russo was pretty much just a mag writer in 1996, so the finish to Michaels v Mankind does seem odd (I know I've read that Mankind was once booked to go over, but if true, that would have been REALLY odd).

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Shawn Michaels is the most naturally talented wrestler I've ever seen. Whether that makes him the best or not is another issue altogether, but as far as the "it" factor, Michaels had it in spades.

 

I remember Shawn having a match with Ken Shamrock at the DX PPV. He was upset that Shamrock was out of place for a spot and started screaming spots to embarass him. I remember him having a temper tantrum mid match when Vader was out of position for a spot. I remember him throwing a temper tantrum at Beware of Dog because he wanted more time for his match.

 

Compare this to Ric Flair, who had to wrestle a coked Kerry Von Erich in 60-minute draws and never lost his cool and was still able to get a great match out of the situation.

 

Shawn's matches always focused around Shawn. If he was getting his ass kicked, his opponent never looked better for beating him, Shawn simply looked better for absorbing so much punishment. If he was on offense, the story was never his opponent's ability to absorb punishment, but rather Shawn's awesome offense. I remember ZERO title defenses he had where he was pushed to the limit by a challenger and retained by the skin of his teeth, with the story being that his opponent is someone for whom to watch out in the future. The Mind Games match is the sole exception, and probably the true shining moment for both guys. Contrast this to what Bret Hart did in TV title defenses against guys like the 1-2-3 Kid and to me, you know all you need to know.

 

I think Shawn's problem was ultimately that he was too good for his own good.

Shawn is a dick. Nobody is saying he was a nice guy.

 

But Flair ALSO could be an epic dick (ask Foley).

 

One's personality and how one acts backstage does not impact what he does in the ring. In the ring, Shawn was as good as Flair ever was. He took nobodies and made them look like stars (Jesus, people STILL think Hall can work because of how good Shawn had him look at WM X and their SSlam rematch) in a way that only Flair has ever been able to approach.

 

Shawn constantly played the luckeist guy in the world schtick. The other guy would pound the crap out of him and he'd make his late rally to win.

-=Mike

[bob_barron 0]

You're right. My mistake. Bulldog's 1997 was basically ONLY his match w/ Owen in February for the first Euro Title and losing the tag straps to Austin & HBK on RAW. Nothing else approached that. His loss of the Euro Title was close --- but it was considerably worse than their previous efforts.

 

Of course nothing else is going to approach that- it was one of the MOTYC for 1997.

 

And he dragged a "decent" match out of Shamrock at SummerSlam? That was one of Shamrock's worst matches of the year on PPV's (his TV work was worse than his PPV work). I don't blame Davey for that as Ken was inept --- but don't call it a "good" match.

 

I didn't say it was a good match- I said it was decent. Which it was. Bulldog did his best to make Ken Shamrock look like a threat. He also was involved in some good tag matches with Furnas and LaFon and many of the Hart Foundaiton multi-tag matches.

 

It has to be something that is FAR above just about anything the guy did at the time. He can have a MOTYC in 1997 and have a tag MOTY the year prior --- but those matches were FAR better than ANYTHING else he did, so yes, I can say he was a slug.

 

If a guy is involved in no less then three MOTYC in 1997 (and a highly rated HBK v. DBS match) I don't think he can considered a slug. A good worker- yes.

 

Shawn v Vader at SSlam blew ANYTHING Vader had done in his entire WWE stint out of the water.

 

Vader never really had the chance to shine in a big PPV match. It's not like Shawn has much competition.

Shawn v UT was considerably better than UT's other matches --- including his matches w/ Bret (the O.N.O match is singularly over-rated).

 

At KOTR '96, Michaels is making Bulldog look like a million bucks. He's doing the vast majority of the work.

 

No he's not- Shawn didn't do any of his bump like a pinball moves in the match (except one) Him and Davey were able to work a style of match that didn't revolve around Shawn bumping like mad. Davey got us to see another side of Shawn

[Guest MikeSC]

HIAC better than Mania 13's Austin/Bret?

 

...

 

HA...HAHA...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yes.

 

BWA HA HA HA back at ya.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

HBK as good as Flair.

 

...

 

HA...HAHA...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Keep 'em coming man...it's getting hard to see the screen through the tears of laughing so hard.

Hey, I feel the same way when I read your columns.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Ok...anyways Shawn.

Yes Shawn did do it. He was the cruiserweight that got to bump for the big men and got them to sell for him. But that still doesn't make him any better than the others. I mean it's like "Yeah I did it but anyone could've done it. I was just in the right place at the right time!"

Plus if you wanna compare Shawn to cruiserweights he's not even in the Top 10 of Greatest...hell he's not in the Heavy Top 10....

Until the others drag matches out of slugs, then yes, Shawn is the best of the bunch for having done it. In his prime, he was every inch as good as Flair was in his prime.

 

And probably as big a dick.

-=Mike

Bret Hart dragged better matches out of Diesel then Shawn Michaels ever did.

Disagree big-time. The best Hart v Diesel match I ever saw was at SSeries '95 (their match at KOTR '94 was nothing and their cage match at IYH was horrid) and I'll take HBK v Diesel at IYH over those any day of the week.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

You're right. My mistake. Bulldog's 1997 was basically ONLY his match w/ Owen in February for the first Euro Title and losing the tag straps to Austin & HBK on RAW. Nothing else approached that. His loss of the Euro Title was close --- but it was considerably worse than their previous efforts.

 

Of course nothing else is going to approach that- it was one of the MOTYC for 1997.

 

And he dragged a "decent" match out of Shamrock at SummerSlam? That was one of Shamrock's worst matches of the year on PPV's (his TV work was worse than his PPV work). I don't blame Davey for that as Ken was inept --- but don't call it a "good" match.

 

I didn't say it was a good match- I said it was decent. Which it was. Bulldog did his best to make Ken Shamrock look like a threat. He also was involved in some good tag matches with Furnas and LaFon and many of the Hart Foundaiton multi-tag matches.

 

It has to be something that is FAR above just about anything the guy did at the time. He can have a MOTYC in 1997 and have a tag MOTY the year prior --- but those matches were FAR better than ANYTHING else he did, so yes, I can say he was a slug.

 

If a guy is involved in no less then three MOTYC in 1997 (and a highly rated HBK v. DBS match) I don't think he can considered a slug. A good worker- yes.

 

Shawn v Vader at SSlam blew ANYTHING Vader had done in his entire WWE stint out of the water.

 

Vader never really had the chance to shine in a big PPV match. It's not like Shawn has much competition.

Shawn v UT was considerably better than UT's other matches --- including his matches w/ Bret (the O.N.O match is singularly over-rated).

 

At KOTR '96, Michaels is making Bulldog look like a million bucks. He's doing the vast majority of the work.

 

No he's not- Shawn didn't do any of his bump like a pinball moves in the match (except one) Him and Davey were able to work a style of match that didn't revolve around Shawn bumping like mad. Davey got us to see another side of Shawn

1) There should be other work CLOSE to the same ballpark. If a guy has ONE terrific match and a series of mediocre, at best, matches --- it's not a stretch to state that the MOTY was a fluke for him.

 

2) I thought Bulldog & Owen v Furnas & LaFon was an OK series, but none of the matches really clicked for me. And the 10-man tag at Stampede was MADE by the crowd much moreso than the action.

 

3) When his ONLY good matches are with guys who can flat-out go and when he's in the ring against less than an elite guy he sucks --- then yes, he is a slug.

 

4) Vader had UT and sucked against him (not a problem solely for Vader). Vader never clicked with anybody and I can BARELY remember ANY of his PPV matches from his WWE stint. Nothing approached what he did with Sting years earlier.

 

5) Shawn changed his style --- one of the big criticisms of him around here. And, again, if Bulldog was good --- why did he only look decent in the ring when he was in there with superior talent? Is it that hard to look good when you're in there Michaels?

-=Mike

[Fökai 0]

Shawn v Vader at SSlam blew ANYTHING Vader had done in his entire WWE stint out of the water.

 

Well -

 

...at Canadian Stampede against Taker for the title.

 

...at Final Four against Hart, Austin and Taker for the title.

 

..at ONO against Owen.

 

But I guess that's a difference of opinion.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Ravishing, I'm not an HBK mark, an HBK mark would say that he's the best wrestler ever, or even top 5. I'm just in the majority, that actually thinks Shawn is not overrated and that he does have a good enough catalogue of work to be in the HOF.

 

Kid, you're an HBK mark.

 

Obviously the people were polled, wrestlers, observers, and they felt the same way. So your in the minority.

 

People also voted for Hitler. Not that I'm comparing HBK to Hitler, I'm just saying the majority can sometimes be wrong. Let's not forget that _Dave Meltzer_ influences the people whom vote and _Dave_ thinks very highly of Shawns work. Dave also posted Pro-Shawn articles on his website. Plus, wrestlers are marks as well.

 

No one is saying he's better than Benoit or Liger, your just getting defensive because you don't like Shawn and want to get your point of view across that he's not good enough for the HOF.

 

No... I'm saying guys like Lyger are able to work both styles successfully, while Shawn hasn't. This "he can work cruiserweight and heavyweight" is a myth, cause he does them both bad.

 

But this is not a debate, becuase he's IN the HOF, and it's obviously not cause of his drawing powers or his attitude, so it must all be based on his work.

 

And his work his overrated and shouldn't carry him over into the HOF. THAT'S the debate.