Baseball Talk

[CanadianChris 0]

Okay now I know batting average doesn't really mean anything, well it does some what but just isn't given as much credit as it used to and isn't a fair way to judge a player. BUT the voters do look at batting average and like I said earlier its been 14 years since any player in either league won the MVP with a sub-.300 avg and the lowest average ever for an MVP winner was .269 by Roger Maris in '61. Thome is right at that and Thome isn't breaking the homerun record so I seriously doubt he is going to win it.

 

Bonds is going to get sympathy votes for his dad dying but I don't think he's played enough this year to deserve the award a la Pedro when it comes to the Cy Young. I think the MVP should go to Pujols although the Cardinals collapse isn't going to help but I'd give it to him.

Bonds' numbers blow Pujols' numbers away. And as for the not-enough-games argument (besides the fact that 120-130 games is still more than enough to be considered), have you seen the Giants' record with and without Bonds? With him, they can win a World Series. Without him, they're the Padres. And that is the very essence of a Most VALUABLE Player. Take Pujols out of the Cards' lineup and they can still post a respectable record, but Barry makes the Giants what they are -- first team to clinch a division, and the co-favourites to represent the NL in the World Series.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I ran through the game logs to come up with a few numbers.

 

With Bonds, the Giants are 81-42 (.659).

 

Without Bonds, the Giants are 12-16 (.429).

[Bored 0]

Okay now I know batting average doesn't really mean anything, well it does some what but just isn't given as much credit as it used to and isn't a fair way to judge a player. BUT the voters do look at batting average and like I said earlier its been 14 years since any player in either league won the MVP with a sub-.300 avg and the lowest average ever for an MVP winner was .269 by Roger Maris in '61. Thome is right at that and Thome isn't breaking the homerun record so I seriously doubt he is going to win it.

 

Bonds is going to get sympathy votes for his dad dying but I don't think he's played enough this year to deserve the award a la Pedro when it comes to the Cy Young. I think the MVP should go to Pujols although the Cardinals collapse isn't going to help but I'd give it to him.

Bonds' numbers blow Pujols' numbers away. And as for the not-enough-games argument (besides the fact that 120-130 games is still more than enough to be considered), have you seen the Giants' record with and without Bonds? With him, they can win a World Series. Without him, they're the Padres. And that is the very essence of a Most VALUABLE Player. Take Pujols out of the Cards' lineup and they can still post a respectable record, but Barry makes the Giants what they are -- first team to clinch a division, and the co-favourites to represent the NL in the World Series.

The injury argument can go two ways. Yes there is the argument of look at their record without him but then there is the argument of look how many games he cost them by being hurt. I'm pretty sure no player has played as few as games as Bonds and won the MVP in a full 162 game season. I'd have to research it to make sure.

 

Bonds numbers blow away Pujols? Wow. Pujols has 25 more runs scored, 29 more doubles, 37 more rbi, 26 points higher batting average. Blow away indeed.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Hear we go Boston...Hear we go!

What are you talking about? Choken One said they'd be out of it by now... they aren't still in the playoff hunt, are they??

To keep some kind of pressure on the Yankees, so they'll show up against Chicago. Although it likely doesn't matter anymore.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Bonds wasn't hurt. He missed time because he took off due to the illness and death of his father.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I'm pretty sure no player has played as few as games as Bonds and won the MVP in a full 162 game season. I'd have to research it to make sure.

 

In 1979, Willie Stargell split the MVP with Keith Hernandez, and he played 126 games.

[Bored 0]

Bonds wasn't hurt.  He missed time because he took off due to the illness and death of his father.

30 games he missed? Um not quite. He's missed several games this year to various nagging injuries (back and knee).

 

In 1979, Willie Stargell split the MVP with Keith Hernandez, and he played 126 games.

 

Stargell lucked out that year as Hernandez had 10 first place votes to Stargell's 4.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Phillies win! Marlins lose!

 

Phillies are now 1/2 game ahead in the Wild Card, and control their own fate.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Boston's win means Toronto is officially eliminated.

[treble 0]

Oh well, I guess Halladay's Cy Young will have to be enough for me.

[CanadianChris 0]

Bonds numbers blow away Pujols? Wow. Pujols has 25 more runs scored, 29 more doubles, 37 more rbi, 26 points higher batting average. Blow away indeed.

Batting average is meaningless. Runs and RBI are not individual stats, as they are affected by teammates -- better teammates will get on base more for you to drive in more runs, and will drive you in when you're on base. Pujols actually has good teammates; Bonds has a team that might not compete with some minor-league clubs.

 

Bonds' numbers are better than Pujols' numbers in every category that means something: on-base percentage, slugging percentage, even with 29 fewer doubles (and hence, OPS - he's 150 points better than Pujols), walks, strikeouts, home runs...hell, he's even got more stolen bases. And how many pitches does Barry actually get to hit in a game? Three, maybe. Four if he's really lucky. He's getting on base more than HALF the time (that's just a ridiculous stat) and is still averaging 3 bases for every four official at-bats (also ridiculous).

 

Right now, Barry Bonds is in the midst of making a case for himself as being the greatest baseball player of all-time, and people don't even think he's the MVP of the league? That's just absurd.

[Guest Choken One]

Arguement could say that Baseball, in a dying sense needs new stars, Pujols could be that guy, Good looks, Power and that "it".

 

Same arguement for A-Rod, whom SHOULD be the #1 guy in the sport because he is the FRANCHISE of MLB...he has "IT" like no other, Smart, Intelligent, Good Looking, GREAT player and dresses like a Fucking MAN should...when other players wear the cut and dry suits or nothing flattering...Arod makes himself presentable, showing that he is a good role model...He doesn't get in trouble yet and is VERY good with kids...

[Bored 0]

Batting average is meaningless. Runs and RBI are not individual stats, as they are affected by teammates -- better teammates will get on base more for you to drive in more runs, and will drive you in when you're on base. Pujols actually has good teammates; Bonds has a team that might not compete with some minor-league clubs.

Hey I love sabermatics as the next person but if batting average means nothing then essentially your saying hits mean nothing. Pujols is hitting .365 which is a pretty hard thing to do. Hey no one takes batting average as seriously as they used to but its ludicrous to just simply throw it out as a meaningless statistic now. Baseball isn't only about homeruns kiddies. Oh please the Giants are good, competitive club without Bonds. Might not compete with minor league teams? You lose all crediblity right there with such a ridiculous statement.

 

Bonds' numbers are better than Pujols' numbers in every category that means something: on-base percentage, slugging percentage, even with 29 fewer doubles (and hence, OPS - he's 150 points better than Pujols), walks, strikeouts, home runs...hell, he's even got more stolen bases. And how many pitches does Barry actually get to hit in a game? Three, maybe. Four if he's really lucky. He's getting on base more than HALF the time (that's just a ridiculous stat) and is still averaging 3 bases for every four official at-bats (also ridiculous).

Maybe Barry would get a few more pitches to hit if he took off all that ridiculous armor he has. He isn't afraid to get hit by a pitch because it won't hurt so he completely takes away the inside part of the plate. Yes and I'm sure NO ONE pitches around Pujols. I mean jeez if I believe ESPN Barry is the only power hitter in baseball that pitcher's pitch around too.

 

Right now, Barry Bonds is in the midst of making a case for himself as being the greatest baseball player of all-time, and people don't even think he's the MVP of the league? That's just absurd.

What you just said is absurd. I'm sorry when did the MVP become a lifetime achievment award? So if Barry next year misses half the season and only hits 15 homeruns he should be MVP because he's THE GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME BAH GAWD?! If Bonds doesn't win the MVP guess what he's still going to the Hall of Fame and no one is denying his place in history if they don't vote him for MVP. Just like last year people not voting A-Rod MVP doesn't mean we don't think he's not one of the best if not the best player in the game.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Arguement could say that Baseball, in a dying sense needs new stars, Pujols could be that guy, Good looks, Power and that "it".

 

Same arguement for A-Rod, whom SHOULD be the #1 guy in the sport because he is the FRANCHISE of MLB...he has "IT" like no other, Smart, Intelligent, Good Looking, GREAT player and dresses like a Fucking MAN should...when other players wear the cut and dry suits or nothing flattering...Arod makes himself presentable, showing that he is a good role model...He doesn't get in trouble yet and is VERY good with kids...

Agreed. It's a shame he's stuck in Dallas. If he was in Chicago, San Francisco, or New York, he'd be bigger than big. He's not going to get the MVP with the Rangers now matter how well he does because even though he's the standout player, he's on a team that's missing the playoffs, and By virtue of that there are more valuable players than he.

 

So basically I guess what I'm trying to say is that A-Rod should play for the Cubs.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Hey I love sabermatics as the next person but if batting average means nothing then essentially your saying hits mean nothing. Pujols is hitting .365 which is a pretty hard thing to do. Hey no one takes batting average as seriously as they used to but its ludicrous to just simply throw it out as a meaningless statistic now.

 

Hits also count in On Base Percentage. The problem with batting average is that it doesn't tell the whole story. Plate discipline is a skill, and a guy who hits .300 with 100 walks is very different from a guy who hits .300 with 20-30 walks. I don't like batting average because I can't tell if a hitter is all that good just from looking at it.

 

Baseball isn't only about homeruns kiddies.

 

Tell that to Earl Weaver. Seriously though, its not about home runs. OBP is a pure succes rate. One side is getting on base, and the other is making outs. OBP is more important than slugging, or any other offensive stat.

[CanadianChris 0]

Oh please the Giants are good, competitive club without Bonds. Might not compete with minor league teams? You lose all crediblity right there with such a ridiculous statement.

Have you even looked at the Giants' offensive numbers? Aside from their first-base platoon of Snow and Galarraga, no one on the entire team has an OPS of 800. That's TERRIBLE. I stand by what I said -- their offence, sans Bonds, looks like something out of AAA.

 

Bonds' numbers are better than Pujols' numbers in every category that means something: on-base percentage, slugging percentage, even with 29 fewer doubles (and hence, OPS - he's 150 points better than Pujols), walks, strikeouts, home runs...hell, he's even got more stolen bases. And how many pitches does Barry actually get to hit in a game? Three, maybe. Four if he's really lucky. He's getting on base more than HALF the time (that's just a ridiculous stat) and is still averaging 3 bases for every four official at-bats (also ridiculous).

Maybe Barry would get a few more pitches to hit if he took off all that ridiculous armor he has. He isn't afraid to get hit by a pitch because it won't hurt so he completely takes away the inside part of the plate. Yes and I'm sure NO ONE pitches around Pujols. I mean jeez if I believe ESPN Barry is the only power hitter in baseball that pitcher's pitch around too.

Riiiight. That's why Barry leads the league in walks, with 37 more than second place. That's why Barry has set all-time single-season records in both walks and intentional walks in recent years. That's why Barry has twice as many walks as Pujols, and over five times as many intentional walks (59 to 11). And, compared to Bonds, yes, no one pitches around Pujols. Managers have intentionally walked Bonds with men on first as a regular strategy -- remember the playoffs last year? Hell, managers have intentionally walked Bonds WITH THE BASES LOADED!! If you watched the Giants on a regular basis, you would know just how few pitches Bonds gets to hit. He IS the most feared power hitter in the game, and he IS the most pitched-around player in the game.

 

And why can they pitch around him? Because there's NO ONE ELSE in the Giants' lineup. Pujols has Renteria, Edmonds, Rolen, Drew, etc. around him. Bonds has no one -- and still puts up the numbers he does.

 

Right now, Barry Bonds is in the midst of making a case for himself as being the greatest baseball player of all-time, and people don't even think he's the MVP of the league? That's just absurd.

What you just said is absurd. I'm sorry when did the MVP become a lifetime achievment award? So if Barry next year misses half the season and only hits 15 homeruns he should be MVP because he's THE GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME BAH GAWD?! If Bonds doesn't win the MVP guess what he's still going to the Hall of Fame and no one is denying his place in history if they don't vote him for MVP. Just like last year people not voting A-Rod MVP doesn't mean we don't think he's not one of the best if not the best player in the game.

Holy missing the point, Batman. I didn't say he had already made his case, I said he was making his case RIGHT NOW with the ungodly numbers he's putting up. If people are considering him to possibly be the greatest of all-time based in part on the numbers he's posting this season, how could he not be considered to be the best player in the league this season? That would be saying, "Man, Barry looks like he might be the greatest ever! Look at those numbers this season -- but hey, look at this Pujols fella...he's even BETTER!!" Right.

 

Plus, following everyone else's logic around here, Bonds is playing for a playoff team, Pujols isn't. Nuff said.

[Bored 0]

Riiiight. That's why Barry leads the league in walks, with 37 more than second place. That's why Barry has set all-time single-season records in both walks and intentional walks in recent years. That's why Barry has twice as many walks as Pujols, and over five times as many intentional walks (59 to 11). And, compared to Bonds, yes, no one pitches around Pujols. Managers have intentionally walked Bonds with men on first as a regular strategy -- remember the playoffs last year? Hell, managers have intentionally walked Bonds WITH THE BASES LOADED!! If you watched the Giants on a regular basis, you would know just how few pitches Bonds gets to hit. He IS the most feared power hitter in the game, and he IS the most pitched-around player in the game.

 

Your absolutely kidding yourself if all that armor Barry wears doesn't contribute to his walks. I didn't say it was the only reason he's pitched around too but it adds to it.

 

 

Holy missing the point, Batman. I didn't say he had already made his case, I said he was making his case RIGHT NOW with the ungodly numbers he's putting up. If people are considering him to possibly be the greatest of all-time based in part on the numbers he's posting this season, how could he not be considered to be the best player in the league this season? That would be saying, "Man, Barry looks like he might be the greatest ever! Look at those numbers this season -- but hey, look at this Pujols fella...he's even BETTER!!" Right.

 

I missed the point? Again answer me this...when did the MVP become a lifetime achievement award? Bonds has made his case for being the best player already and people talk about his last two year's more than they talk about this year. Again voting Pujols MVP is in no way denying Bonds his place in history.

 

Plus, following everyone else's logic around here, Bonds is playing for a playoff team, Pujols isn't. Nuff said.

That's not my full logic. I don't think a player who played for a losing team and especially a last place team that hasn't competed all year when it comes to A-Rod deserve the award.

[CanadianChris 0]

That's not my full logic. I don't think a player who played for a losing team and especially a last place team that hasn't competed all year when it comes to A-Rod deserve the award.

OK, read this. And then read this.

 

Now, you've said that you want Pujols to win, but you haven't really explained why he should win over Bonds. Why does Pujols deserve to win? What has he done that's so spectacularly better than Bonds?

[Bored 0]

That's not my full logic. I don't think a player who played for a losing team and especially a last place team  that hasn't competed all year when it comes to A-Rod deserve the award.

OK, read this. And then read this.

 

Now, you've said that you want Pujols to win, but you haven't really explained why he should win over Bonds. Why does Pujols deserve to win? What has he done that's so spectacularly better than Bonds?

I already said it on the previous page that he hasn't played enough this year and will play less than 130 games. That's just too many games missed IMO and due to that Pujols has a huge edge in several categories. Anyways I also agrue Pujols to counter the argument that it has to be Barry and no one else, the same thing with A-Rod in how people advocate him just because he's A-Rod and no on else deserves consideration. Hell could make a case for Eric Gagne for MVP but that's opening a whole other can of worms.

[CanadianChris 0]

OK, so to sum up, my case for Bonds is:

 

Bonds is a better run producer.

Bonds gets on base more.

Bonds slugs better.

Bonds produces superior statistics in an inferior lineup.

Bonds makes his team significantly better.

 

And the case for Pujols is:

 

Bonds hasn't played enough.

Someone besides Bonds should be considered.

 

Well, I'm convinced. Give it to Pujols.

[CanadianChris 0]

Cubs are stinking out the joint right now. Unbelievable...how many chances do they think they're going to get? If they can't win a series against the worst team in the division in September, they don't deserve to go to the playoffs.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Totally agreed right there. If they don't make postseason, it'll be completely their fault, as they had a chance to get within a half game of the Stros with a win tonight. Barring some sort of a miracle, that won't happen and they'll go back to a game and a half back. As an avid Cubs fan, I'm almost hoping they don't make it to the postseason simply because I already get mad about enough things without them adding to it. I swear, no article of my home is safe when they're playing, or more specifically, not playing well.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Anyways I also agrue Pujols to counter the argument that it has to be Barry and no one else, the same thing with A-Rod in how people advocate him just because he's A-Rod and no on else deserves consideration.

 

Other players deserve consideration. But so far, I have not heard a single person argue that A-Rod does not deserve the MVP because player B is having a better year. The only argument anyone advances is the winning team argument.

[Mik 0]

Phils go down in Cinci. Barring another 9th inning Braves comeback, the Marlins will reclaim the wildcard lead. C'mon, baby.

[Mik 0]

FUCK BRADEN LOOPER!

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Braves score 2 in 9th! Thank you god.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Bottom 10. Bases Loaded, 1 out.

[treble 0]

Fuck.

 

The Braves had better hope that Smoltz is VERY healthy once the playoffs start, since their bullpen is horrible.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Since there's a shot they'll play Houston. I hope Smoltz isn't healthy.

[Mik 0]

Ok, no matter how the outcome of this game turns out, I have to say one thing...I love Miguel Cabrera. The Marlins had better hope he stays with them for a long time to come, because he's going to be awesome. He always comes up big in the clutch and he's turning into one of their best hitters. Throw in the fact that he's actually younger than I am (I'm 21, he's 20) and the Marlins have got something here.

 

Thanks for your 11th inning homerun tonight and everything else Miguel.

 

If he played the whole year or more than just two months, he'd be Rookie of the Year, no doubt in my mind.