The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[BlackFlagg 0]

I don't know about that. Angelus is the vampire form of Liam. Angel is the vampire with a soul form of Angelus. If Angel turns human, he's back to being Liam... right?

Hmmm...with all the whoring he did as Liam ya gotta wonder how long he will live if he becomes a human....there would be a twist, he becomes human and dies shortly after from Syphilis he caught from some whore before he was turned and was building up in him all these years but had no affect on him as a vampire...

 

That would be a cruel twist of fate, heh

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

I don't know about that.  Angelus is the vampire form of Liam.  Angel is the vampire with a soul form of Angelus.  If Angel turns human, he's back to being Liam... right?

Hmmm...with all the whoring he did as Liam ya gotta wonder how long he will live if he becomes a human....there would be a twist, he becomes human and dies shortly after from Syphilis he caught from some whore before he was turned and was building up in him all these years but had no affect on him as a vampire...

 

That would be a cruel twist of fate, heh

That's kind of what they did with Darla though.

 

Just like they've already done the "Angel turns human and then back to vampire" thing in "I Will Remember You" although he chose to return to being a vampire then.

 

When you really think about it. If you want an unhappy ending that hasn't been done already on Angel....then it needs to end with Angel dying as a Vampire. If he turns human he'll just realize that he can't "help the helpless" anymore and want to turn back. His only way to find redemption is to basically die for good and let his soul go where it's supposed to go.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Hows about this:

 

Angel won't be becoming Human?

 

I can't see it happening. Buffy didn't stop being a slayer, she just stopped having the responsibility of "one". Angel won't stop being a vampire, he'll just be more less-at-odds with his vampire-self.

[BlackFlagg 0]

I don't know about that.  Angelus is the vampire form of Liam.  Angel is the vampire with a soul form of Angelus.  If Angel turns human, he's back to being Liam... right?

Hmmm...with all the whoring he did as Liam ya gotta wonder how long he will live if he becomes a human....there would be a twist, he becomes human and dies shortly after from Syphilis he caught from some whore before he was turned and was building up in him all these years but had no affect on him as a vampire...

 

That would be a cruel twist of fate, heh

That's kind of what they did with Darla though.

 

Just like they've already done the "Angel turns human and then back to vampire" thing in "I Will Remember You" although he chose to return to being a vampire then.

 

When you really think about it. If you want an unhappy ending that hasn't been done already on Angel....then it needs to end with Angel dying as a Vampire. If he turns human he'll just realize that he can't "help the helpless" anymore and want to turn back. His only way to find redemption is to basically die for good and let his soul go where it's supposed to go.

d'oh, totally forgot they did that with Darla <slaps self> that's what I get for posting when I'm falling asleep, heh

[Anakin Flair 0]

I don't know about that.  Angelus is the vampire form of Liam.  Angel is the vampire with a soul form of Angelus.  If Angel turns human, he's back to being Liam... right?

Hmmm...with all the whoring he did as Liam ya gotta wonder how long he will live if he becomes a human....there would be a twist, he becomes human and dies shortly after from Syphilis he caught from some whore before he was turned and was building up in him all these years but had no affect on him as a vampire...

 

That would be a cruel twist of fate, heh

When did they establish Angel's real name was Liam? When did I miss this?

 

I thought it was wierd taht Spike called him Liam, but I thought it was a Brit calling an Irishman by a nickname or something...`

[fazzle 0]

When did they establish Angel's real name was Liam? When did I miss this?

Season 4, Spin the Bottle, when Lorne accidentally cast a spell to make them act like teenagers.

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

When did they establish Angel's real name was Liam? When did I miss this?

Season 4, Spin the Bottle, when Lorne accidentally cast a spell to make them act like teenagers.

Angel was called Liam in the flashbacks in "Amends" too. Plus the flashbacks in Angel Season 1.

[Mole 0]

When did they establish Angel's real name was Liam? When did I miss this?

Season 4, Spin the Bottle, when Lorne accidentally cast a spell to make them act like teenagers.

I love that episode. When Gunn and Wes were fighting, and someone told Angel to break it up.

 

Angel:The English have it coming to them -- I'm rooting for the slave.

 

That is pure Joss right there.

[Anakin Flair 0]

That was season 4? Damn, I missed that one.

 

Incidently, for anyone who cares, Tru Calling premiers this Thrusday on Fox at 8-9

[LaParkaYourCar 0]

Whoa I just saw the previews for a movie with Anthony Stewart Head in it. It also has Charlotte Church. I forget the name of the movie though.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Charlotte Church is Buffy: The Opera Singer.

 

Giles: A, a Singer sings, a Watcher...

Buffy: ...watches?

Giles: Yes. No! He, he trains her, he, he, he prepares her...

Buffy: Prepares me for what? For getting kicked out of school? For losing all of my friends? For having to spend all of my time singing for my life and never getting to tell anyone because I might endanger them? Go ahead! Prepare me.

*Buffy turns and leaves the library in disgust.*

Giles: Damn!

[Mole 0]

Whoa I just saw the previews for a movie with Anthony Stewart Head in it. It also has Charlotte Church. I forget the name of the movie though.

I'll Be There.

 

It has a 4.9 on IMDB, but it might get a rental from me because ASM is in it.

[Guest JMA]

I don't know about that. Angelus is the vampire form of Liam. Angel is the vampire with a soul form of Angelus. If Angel turns human, he's back to being Liam... right?

It's a tricky question. As Buffy/Angel fans know, the first vampire was created when a demon (who had not yet left our dimension) drained a human of its blood and fed it some of its own. The human's soul left, but the body was infected with the demon's own "soul" (or equivalent). But this new demon had all of the memories of the human and SOME of its personality. It may even identity with or believe itself to still be the human. Thus, it was a remorseless killer with the mind of a human.

 

Anyway, using this reasoning, Angelus is the "soul" of the demon half of Angel. While Liam is the human soul. If Angel were ever fully turned human, Angelus' soul would presumably be destroyed. If turned again, Angel would become a "new" vampire with a new demonic "soul." He would still be evil, just different from Angelus. Of course, this is just a theory. Maybe you're right. The only time a vampire turned human was turned again was with Darla.

[Mole 0]

This is an very interesting question.

 

I say if Angel turned into Liam, and got bit by a vampire, Angelus would come back.

[Cavi 0]

When Gunn and Wes were fighting, and someone told Angel to break it up.

 

Angel:The English have it coming to them -- I'm rooting for the slave.

 

That is pure Joss right there.

Haha, I remember that.

[Anakin Flair 0]

You know, I just thought of this:

The only person that is able to hear the BLACK PANTHER speak is Gunn.

 

Either Joss is pulling a social commentary thing, or it's just a wierd coincidence.

 

No offense meant to anybody, btw. Just my sleep-depraved mind working overtime.

[Mole 0]

I never even thought of that.

[Ravenbomb 0]

the same could be asked about Willow. If she got vamped, would she be exactly the same as Vamp-Willow in The Wish and Dopplegangland?

[Mole 0]

Yeah, because that is Willow when vamped.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

So basically what we're asking is: Is the vamp-side predetermined?

 

So no matter what your character is before getting bitten, your vampself would be the same.

 

The 2 sides, Pro and Con.

 

Pro: Spike - as William he was an uptight mommas boy, but when he changed into a vamp all that was let go seemingly instantaneously.

 

Con: Holden - maintained his psychness and just happened to be evil.

[Golgo 13 0]

Maybe, but you can't say one way or the other that they'd be 'exactly' alike.

 

My reasoning for this is the fact that they both Willows experienced different environments, one of them in a harsh world without Buffy and one of them with. Because of these different experiences, two very different Vamp Willows would likely come about, despite similar traits.

 

While she WOULD still lack a soul, I'd say there are good chances of this world's Willow being able to restrain herself from stooping to a Dopplegangland Willow personality. Even if someone like Harmony could live off pig's blood and restrain herself, so could Willow (if Harm is telling the truth, that is.

 

Likewise, although they certainly aren't the same person, William as Spike was never the same exact vamp as Liam as Angelus. Despite them sharing the sire bond.

 

Again, they were all products of their environment.

 

On that, if Angel were to suddenly turn human, and then to be vamped, I don't think Angelus would resurface. Simply because Liam wouldn't be the same as he once was. No Liam, no Angelus.

[Guest JMA]

Spike is an interesting case. The human soul and demon soul exist in an almost perfect harmony. They also seem to have equal control (unlike Angel and Angelus). After all, the DEMON fell in love with Buffy, not the human soul.

[Mole 0]

If Spike lost his soul back in season 7, I don't think he would of been bad again.

 

Spike transformed himself from a evil being, to champion even without his soul. In a way, he is more of a champion than Angel.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Champions Rape?

 

.... ???

[Mole 0]

Champions Rape?

 

.... ???

Crap, I forgot bout that.

[Guest JMA]

If Spike lost his soul back in season 7, I don't think he would of been bad again.

 

Spike transformed himself from a evil being, to champion even without his soul. In a way, he is more of a champion than Angel.

I disagree. It is a vampire's nature to inflict pain and suffering on others, and they enjoy the act of killing. Buffy asked in Season One if a vampire could be good. Giles made it pretty clear that they CAN'T (without a human soul). Vampires can love, but this love is not a pure one. It is tainted. A jealous, posessive love, if you will (see the attempted rape). Imagine being in love with someone but having no morals. It's nice to think Spike would've been different even without his soul or the chip, but I doubt it. He would've been compelled to kill and take anything if he wanted it. The reason Spike changed as much as he did was because of the chip. He had to adapt to his new situation.

 

But he was never a "good guy." He only helped the Scoobies because of his love for Buffy. That was the ONLY reason. I do agree that Spike became a hero despite being evil, and regained what he was missing.

[Mole 0]

Yeah but his love for Buffy is what made him good. He didn't give up the key to Glory, even though she tortured him really badly.

 

He protected Dawn even after Buffy was dead. The love he had for Buffy is what made him good.

 

He got his soul, and the love was the same as it was before. He got his soul, so it is real love all of a sudden?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

There's a difference between loving someone and being _in_love with someone. Being in-love is more of a selfish thing, something that fades after the thrill is gone.

 

Vampires are evil. They can act nice, they can save you, they can drink pigs blood... but ultimately they are evil as are their end objectives. Harmony is evil. She "is good" only because she has a personal interest in WR&H. Vampires are selfish.

[Guest JMA]

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head.

[Guest darrick_lucas]

i think it is the last season because they have nowhere else to go they've killed a god and cordelia is suppose to be in the coma now the spike twist is good but that can only last for so long then eventually you'll have to start bringing all the remaining cast of buffy on angel just to get people to watch so yeah i think they'll be wrapping it up this season