The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Guest wrestlingbs]

This is a little out of context, but I was watching Buffy on FX recently, and I have a question. What happened to Drusilla? Did Angel kill her? Before Darla died?

 

And just saw the complete episode of The Body. No wonder people say it's one of the best episodes. it's so well directed.

[Guest JMA]

This is a little out of context, but I was watching Buffy on FX recently, and I have a question. What happened to Drusilla? Did Angel kill her? Before Darla died?

I'm pretty sure Drusilla is still "alive" and on the large.

[Anakin Flair 0]

This is a little out of context, but I was watching Buffy on FX recently, and I have a question. What happened to Drusilla? Did Angel kill her? Before Darla died?

I'm pretty sure Drusilla is still "alive" and on the large.

She came back for Spike, who was willing to kill her for Buffy, but she got free, bitch slapped Spike, and left. She is still out there, somewhere.

[Guest JMA]

This is a little out of context, but I was watching Buffy on FX recently, and I have a question. What happened to Drusilla? Did Angel kill her? Before Darla died?

I'm pretty sure Drusilla is still "alive" and on the large.

She came back for Spike, who was willing to kill her for Buffy, but she got free, bitch slapped Spike, and left. She is still out there, somewhere.

Correct.

[Mole 0]

He could've easily done it if Spike helped him.

 

Though that's iffy, seeing as how Spike and Dru really did love each other (in their own sick way).

Dru and Spike didn't really love each other because they don't have souls. They had a deeeeep lust for eachother, but if you don't have a soul you can't love. One of the reasons Buffy never would been with Spike was because he didn't have a soul. Plus, when he tried to rape Buffy prooved that he didn't love her. If you love someone, would you try to rape them? I think not.

 

However, he did have feelings for her or some sorts. Once he got his soul, the feelings he had came out in their true form and he really loved her then.

Spike didn't have a soul when he first fell in love with Buffy. You don't need a soul to love. Dru has said this and Spike is proof of it. Also, don't forget that vampire couple from season three of "Angel." Don't even TRY to tell me that was based on lust. It's been pretty much stated that vampires can love. As for Spike trying to rape Buffy, vampire love is a lot different than human love. Vampire love is perverse and selfish.

 

Spike tried to rape Buffy because deep down he was still evil. Forget the chip, his true nature is to cause others pain. The interesting thing about Spike is that his demon and his soul co-exist in a perfect harmony. Compare their relationship to that of Angel and Angelus.

 

Edit: The couple I was speaking of are James and Elizabeth.

Well, vampire love is different than human love, like you stated. But vampire love isn't true love because there is no soul involved. I look at it as vampire love is just a deep lust, almost love, but no quite true love.

[Guest JMA]

Well, vampire love is different than human love, like you stated. But vampire love isn't true love because there is no soul involved. I look at it as vampire love is just a deep lust, almost love, but no quite true love.

This debate is actually quite interesting. Do you remember a couple of months back when you and I discussed if Spike would still be a good person if he lost his chip? I believe it was either in this thread or the Buffy one. As I recall, you argued that Spike losing the chip wouldn't have made a difference and that he would still not commit evil acts. I argued that he would stay with Buffy, but would still feed on innocent people, as well as do other unsavory things. It seems you've changed your opinion on the subject. Am I right in saying that?

 

But back to the discussion at hand. I'm not convinced all vampire love is based on sexual desire. The thing about demons is that they have souls, just not HUMAN souls. As Giles said, when the first human was turned into a vampire he/she was "infected by the demon's soul." There seems to be good demonic souls (like Lorne) and evil ones (all vampires). Let's look at one definition of love:

 

"A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness."

 

I think people tend to always look at love as a positive, beautiful emotion. But I don't think that's always the case. Love can sometimes be more deadly than hate. Vampires, by nature, are selfish creatures. Thus it only makes sense that their love would be selfish as well. While a human being may send flowers to his beloved, a vampire would lock up a human in a small room and bring them animal carcases each day before finally turning them. That's only an example, of course. But I think Spike, as well as James and Elizabeth, have shown that vampires do indeed have a sort of love. Whether it's "true" love or not is open to debate.

[2GOLD 0]

This is a little out of context, but I was watching Buffy on FX recently, and I have a question. What happened to Drusilla? Did Angel kill her? Before Darla died?

I'm pretty sure Drusilla is still "alive" and on the large.

She came back for Spike, who was willing to kill her for Buffy, but she got free, bitch slapped Spike, and left. She is still out there, somewhere.

Correct.

 

Didn't they say she was in Mexico?

[Guest JMA]

Didn't they say she was in Mexico?

I don't recall where they said she was (if anywhere). Dru doesn't strike me as the kind of person to stay in one place for too long, though.

[Jingus 0]

Okay, time to poke a few holes in this whole "soul/love" debate.

 

Let's face it, Joss & Co. have been really vague and slipshod when it comes to telling us exactly what a "soul" is, and exactly what it does. For example: let's contrast Angel and Spike, with and without souls.

 

Angel (with soul) is a very nice guy. Sweet, loyal, good-hearted, and constantly racked by guilt over every single thing he's ever done. However, remove the soul, and you instantly get Angelus, the most heartlessly evil, selfish, and manipulative sonofabitch to ever grace a TV screen. The transformation is so drastic that it's almost like they're evil twins instead of the same person. (This is hardly the only time this happens, either; MANY times on the show we've seen a good person get vamped and turn evil.)

 

Spike, on the other hand, is a very different case. When Spike got ensouled, he hardly changed at all. He's still the same old Cockney asshole who likes drinking, womanizing, getting into fights, and harassing Angel. Throughout the runs of Buffy and Angel, it's been made abundantly clear that Spike only does bad things when he's being acted on by an outside force, whether he's complying with them (Dru) or rebelling against them (Buffy). So, if a soul is SO important that it can change Angel into a completely different person, then why is Spike damn near identical with or without one?

 

Also, consider other soulless beings who still weren't "evil" in the truest sense. Harmony was never evil; she was just dumb as a rock and really susceptible to evil peer pressure. She usually tried to do what she thought was right, even without a soul. And another thing: demons don't have souls, right? Well then, what about Doyle, Lorne, Clem, demon Anya, Groosalug, and any of the other various non-human white hats? According to their own show's continuity, they should be lacking in the soul department (would Doyle have half a soul?) and therefore evil, but they weren't.

 

All in all, the "soul" argument is hard to debate, just because of the poor writing job by everyone involved.

 

 

 

And finally, about Spike trying to "rape" Buffy: no, he wasn't. He had no idea that Buffy really didn't want him this time. Okay, she insults him, says no, fights him; how does that differ at all from any of their usual foreplay? It seems like they two of them couldn't fuck unless they'd first argued with each other and gotten into a fistfight. Spike really thought they were just going through the usual routine. When he finally realized they weren't (it took him a minute, he's not the most observant guy in the world), he got up and left, and felt so guilty about it that he went halfway around the world to get beaten half to death just to get his soul back to try and make it up to Buffy.

[Guest JMA]

Angel (with soul) is a very nice guy.  Sweet, loyal, good-hearted, and constantly racked by guilt over every single thing he's ever done.  However, remove the soul, and you instantly get Angelus, the most heartlessly evil, selfish, and manipulative sonofabitch to ever grace a TV screen.  The transformation is so drastic that it's almost like they're evil twins instead of the same person.  (This is hardly the only time this happens, either; MANY times on the show we've seen a good person get vamped and turn evil.) 

 

Spike, on the other hand, is a very different case.  When Spike got ensouled, he hardly changed at all.  He's still the same old Cockney asshole who likes drinking, womanizing, getting into fights, and harassing Angel.  Throughout the runs of Buffy and Angel, it's been made abundantly clear that Spike only does bad things when he's being acted on by an outside force, whether he's complying with them (Dru) or rebelling against them (Buffy).  So, if a soul is SO important that it can change Angel into a completely different person, then why is Spike damn near identical with or without one?

I'm glad you brought that up. It has always fascinated me how different Spike and Angel are with and without souls. I touched on it above, but only briefly. You've clearly outlined everything, though. I think since Spike actually quested for his soul it changes things quiet a bit. Think about it, the demon (Spike) wanted his human soul (William) back. When Spike got his soul he was not quite stable at first. I'm guessing this was because (a) suddenly receiving a conscience after not having one for a LONG time would be strange for anyone and (b) William wasn't exactly the most strong-willed person. This is why he basically stayed the same. Who do you think he would rather be, the bad-ass vampire who gets any woman (undead or not) he wants or a momma's boy who couldn't get a date to save his life?

 

Also, consider other soulless beings who still weren't "evil" in the truest sense.  Harmony was never evil; she was just dumb as a rock and really susceptible to evil peer pressure.  She usually tried to do what she thought was right, even without a soul.  And another thing: demons don't have souls, right?  Well then, what about Doyle, Lorne, Clem, demon Anya, Groosalug, and any of the other various non-human white hats?  According to their own show's continuity, they should be lacking in the soul department (would Doyle have half a soul?) and therefore evil, but they weren't.

I think Harmony, at her core, is evil. She has more humanity than most vampires, but she's still a blood-thirsty beast. The problem is that vampires retain all of the human's memory and some of their personality. Like I've said before, demons have souls, just not HUMAN souls. Giles said this in the pilot, I believe, when talking about the first vampire. Some demons have good demonic souls (like Lorne) and others have evil ones (all vampires). There does seem to be a greater number of evil demons than good ones, however. The demon who created vampires had an evil soul that infected the humans he turned. Vampires are very different from other demons, however. They're basically trapped in the shells of former humans. You would think that they wouldn't care what the human liked or disliked, but that isn't the case. I'd compare Harmony to Holden from "Conversations With Dead People." He's evil, but isn't JUST evil. Harmony probably follows Angel out of fear. That and the fact that younger vamps seem to follow more experienced ones.

 

Doyle is a pretty easy case to figure out. He has a hybrid soul. He's the product of a non-human coupling with a human. Based on this, I'd say his soul would be unique. Neither a demonic soul or a human soul. I don't think Anya ever "lost" her soul. She wasn't born a demon, but was transformed into one. I personally believe her existing soul was altered, not replaced. But that's only a theory.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Vampires are dead humans. Dead humans don't have souls. I don't know where it said in the mythology that demons can't have souls.

 

Why are Angel and Spike different? Angel didn't know he had a soul when he got it, which means he was confused on the issue. It took him a long time to figure it all out and it deeply effected him. However, to say it didn't effect Spike is forgetting the moment he and Angel shared in the hospital room after he got his arms cut off "So were we, once" - about being innocent.

 

..and Spike was trying to rape Buffy.

[Mole 0]

This debate is actually quite interesting. Do you remember a couple of months back when you and I discussed if Spike would still be a good person if he lost his chip? I believe it was either in this thread or the Buffy one. As I recall, you argued that Spike losing the chip wouldn't have made a difference and that he would still not commit evil acts. I argued that he would stay with Buffy, but would still feed on innocent people, as well as do other unsavory things. It seems you've changed your opinion on the subject. Am I right in saying that?

Ummm, I sort of remember it, I think it was in the Angel thread though. That is an interesting question though and I think I have changed my opinino about it.

 

Spike became good over time because he wasn't able to feed on humans from the chip in his head. In season 4, he was still evil and only helped the Scoobies when he got some money. When he was helping Adam, he went against the Scoobies and tried to break them up. And then in season 5 he tried to get his chip out again by stealing that doctor with Harmony.

 

Then he had that one dream in "Out of my Mind" that had him kissing Buffy. When he woke up, he realized that he was in "love" with her. Then for the rest of the season, the only time he ever helped the Scoobies out was for Buffy. Glory beat him to death to find out who the key was and Spike never told her for Buffy. And in "the Gift" they had this convo:

 

BUFFY: We're not all gonna make it. You know that.

SPIKE: Yeah, hey always knew I'd go down fightin'.

BUFFY: I'm counting on you ... to protect her.

SPIKE: Till the end of the world. Even if that happens to be tonight.

 

That is why after Buffy died, those 147 days, Spike fought with the Scoobies. He would always protect Dawn, which also meant fighting with the Scoobies. And when Buffy came back, he still fought with them because he would always do stuff for her. Like going across the globe just to get his soul, like you stated.

 

I am not really sure what would happen to Spike if he lost his soul now because he did change over time for his "love" towards Buffy. I believe that he would do good things still because of his "love" for Buffy since he always would want to make her happy.

 

But I think Spike, as well as James and Elizabeth, have shown that vampires do indeed have a sort of love. Whether it's "true" love or not is open to debate.

That is what I was trying to say before. Vampires can love things, but it isn't the love that humans have. They love each other with their demon soul, which is evil, so the love is different. Basically Spike loved Buffy with a demon soul. Buffy would never be with him because his love was as pure as Buffys was. I think that is it; human's love is pure while demon's love isn't pure. If that makes sense.

 

Angel (with soul) is a very nice guy. Sweet, loyal, good-hearted, and constantly racked by guilt over every single thing he's ever done. However, remove the soul, and you instantly get Angelus, the most heartlessly evil, selfish, and manipulative sonofabitch to ever grace a TV screen. The transformation is so drastic that it's almost like they're evil twins instead of the same person. (This is hardly the only time this happens, either; MANY times on the show we've seen a good person get vamped and turn evil.)

 

Spike, on the other hand, is a very different case. When Spike got ensouled, he hardly changed at all. He's still the same old Cockney asshole who likes drinking, womanizing, getting into fights, and harassing Angel. Throughout the runs of Buffy and Angel, it's been made abundantly clear that Spike only does bad things when he's being acted on by an outside force, whether he's complying with them (Dru) or rebelling against them (Buffy). So, if a soul is SO important that it can change Angel into a completely different person, then why is Spike damn near identical with or without one?

When Angel got his soul, his conscience came to and all of the horrible things he ever did started to hurt him. He had his soul for over 100 years before loosing it again for the first time. During those 100 years, he became a completly different person but Angelus still was inside of him. Then bam, he lost his soul and Angelus came out. Since Angel had the soul for a long time, he developed another personality and when he soul is gone, the other personality comes out.

 

However, Spike's case is different. When he got his soul he had already changed because of his "love" for Buffy. Spike was already pretty close to being good, so getting his soul just gave him a conscience.

 

I'll finish this later because my friend is here to get me.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You really should define love before talking about it. Because I'm pretty sure everyone has a different definition of it.

[Anya 0]

Demon Anya is a white hat? Anyanka is a mass murderer that made men suffer for thousands of years. She probably has done more damage than Dru, Darla, Angelus and Spike combined. She's really evil and mean in The Wish.

 

If you mean post Hells Bells then she had her love of Xander to get in the way of her evilness, even then she murdered innocent people.

 

 

 

It is funny how Angel/Angelus and Spike are treated different. Not only in how they act but with the scoobies. Angel gets the benifit of the doubt and is treated like Angelus is a different person, or like The Incredible Hulk or Jekel and Hyde. Spike is just Spike. Even when he got his soul they still didn't trust him and still treated him like shit.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Man, I am reading the full summary for the last episode, and I swear...

 

1. I got tears swelling up in my eyes reading the Wes/Illyria scene. That could be an all-time best moment.

 

2. This could quite possibly be the best episode ever.

[Mole 0]

You really should define love before talking about it. Because I'm pretty sure everyone has a different definition of it.

 

From JMA:

 

"A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness."

 

From "Seeing Red," this is what Spike said to Buffy right before he tried to rape her.

 

SPIKE: Great love is wild ... and passionate and dangerous. It burns and consumes.

BUFFY: Until there's nothing left. Love like that doesn't last.

 

To Spike, that is what love is. He didn't know what true love was like, unless you count his mother, which was a different kind of love. That is why Spike never really loved Buffy; his love was more like lust, just a deep, deep lust.

 

Then when Spike got his soul, those lusting feelings he had turned into love. When he was around Buffy, he didn't want to fuck her brains out like he used to. He just wanted to be around her and make her feel comfortable. Not once, if memory serves me correst, he tried to have sex with Buffy when he had his soul.

 

And finally, about Spike trying to "rape" Buffy: no, he wasn't. He had no idea that Buffy really didn't want him this time. Okay, she insults him, says no, fights him; how does that differ at all from any of their usual foreplay? It seems like they two of them couldn't fuck unless they'd first argued with each other and gotten into a fistfight. Spike really thought they were just going through the usual routine. When he finally realized they weren't (it took him a minute, he's not the most observant guy in the world), he got up and left, and felt so guilty about it that he went halfway around the world to get beaten half to death just to get his soul back to try and make it up to Buffy.

Go back and watch that scene Jingus because he defiently tried to rape her.

 

I just watched that scene to refresh my memory and it is MUCH different than the other times they had sex. When they had sex before, it started out with them fighting but it was with them standing up punching each other, which was just the first few times. After the first few times, they just had rough sex but it started out without violence.

 

When he tried to rape her, it was much different than before. Spike pushes her on the ground, forces himself on top of her while Buffy is crying asking him to stop.

 

If that isn't attempted rape, than what is your defintion of rape?

[Ravenbomb 0]

hey is "Fade Not Away" (the title for the last ep of Angel IIRC) a reference to anything? I'm almost positive I've heard that before somewhere

[Mole 0]

"Not Fade Away"

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Hmm.... this might be relevant. I don't quite remember what it was for (me thinks a presentation), but this was from OAC English. Two books significantly changed the way I looked at this, "The Road Less Traveled" was one of them...

 

The Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck

LOVE: How Peck fares in light of other experts.

 

“Most of us continue to behave as though love is not learned but lies dormant in each human being and simply awaits some mystical age of awareness to emerge in full bloom” - Leo Buscaglia

 

This statement rejects the stereotype furthest most by Hollywood that ‘love at first sight’ is true love. It discards the notion that love is easy, and states that it is something that is learned and developed, and worked on over time.

 

In Romantic films, ‘true’ love can be summed up in under 2 hrs. There may be perhaps one difficulty within the relationship between the two characters, but at the end everything is all peachy and they stay in love forever and ever and ever. This is the belief that most people have in regards to the whole love subject. That the right person is just waiting to be found and when that person shows up Eternal Love is too. When that one person shows up, the person that is ‘meant’ for him or her, they are set for life, never to be lonely again. Essentially, people conceive that there is a ‘perfect’ person for them.

 

Peck disagrees. “The Myth of Romantic Love is a dreadful lie.”

 

Love takes work: “Love is the extension of ones self for the purpose of nurturing one’s own or another’s spiritual growth.”

 

“The Act of extending ones limits implies effort. One extends ones limits only by exceeding them, and exceeding limits requires effort”

 

“Love is not effortless; it is effortful.”

 

“‘Falling in Love’ is the most powerful and pervasive is the belief that falling in love is love, or at least are of the manifestations of love.”

 

“The experience of falling in love is invariably temporary”

 

“To fall in love is to fall out of love”

 

“It is lonely behind these boundaries. We learn to escape from behind these walls of our individual identities to a condition in which we can be more unified with the word outside ourselves. The feeling of falling in love allows us that escape - temporarily”

 

“As our ego boundaries become blurred and thinned, we giving more and more to experience the same sort of feeling of ecstasy that we have when our ego boundaries partially collapse and we falling love.”

 

“Instead of having merged temporarily and unrealistically with a single object, we have merged realistically and more permanently with much of the world.”

 

“The feeling of ecstasy or bliss associated with this union, which perhaps, more gentle and less dramatic than that associated with falling in love, is nonetheless much more stable and lasting and ultimately satisfying.”

 

“Mysticism is essentially the belief that reality is oneness”

 

“True reality can be known only by experiencing the oneness through a giving up of ego boundaries”

 

“It is impossible to see the unity of the universe as long as one continues to see oneself as a discreet object, separate and distinguishable from the rest of the universe”

 

“Sex, falling in love, drugs provide a glimpse of Nirvana, but not Nirvana itself.”

 

“Can only be found through the persistent exercise of real love.”

 

“The experience may capture us at times when we are definitely not seeking it, when it is inconvenient and undesirable.”

 

Opposites attract: “ You may not even like or admire the object of your passion.”

 

“Couples must learn that true love can grow through true understanding/acceptance of their own and each others individuality and separateness is the only foundation upon which a mature marriage can be based and real love can grow.”

 

“We must be attracted toward, invested in , and committed to an object outside of ourselves, beyond the boundaries of self” <- Cathexis - The act of extending ego boundaries

 

“By this incorporation, ones self has become enlarges and ones ego boundaries extended”

 

A sudden collapse of a section of an individuals ego boundaries, permitting one to merge his or her identity with that of another persons ...Stops being lonely.

 

In some respects, the act of falling in love is an act of regression.

-Echoes back to merging with our mothers in infancy.

- Re-experience the sense of omnipotence which we had given up

- All problems will be over come because of love

 

“Sooner or later in response to the problems of daily living, the individual will reassert itself (and conflicts arise)

 

“Therefore they will realize that they are not one”

 

One by one, gradually, or suddenly, the ego boundaries snap back into place - fall out of love - become lonely again

 

The more and longer we extend ourselves, the more we love, the more blurred becomes the distinction between self and the world.

 

 

When we are infants we have no concept of self or individuality. In essence, we are ‘one with the universe. When we become older, we realize that we are indeed separate entities and that we can not truly control everything around us (realizing this fact, we become very angry and try to force our will upon other objects ie ‘Terrible Twos“. As we grow into adults we fully accept this fact, however, we do long for the power associate with the omnipotence that we once had as children. We form our Ego Boundaries as a solution to this loss, our own securities.

 

When we ’fall in love’, we have the feeling that ’everything is going to be great, love can solve any problems in our way’. We regress back to the state of an infant. Sooner or later, through lifes problems, we will realize that the ‘perfect guy/gal’ isn’t perfect at all. From there we make the decision of a) leaving said imperfect person in wait of that one true love or b) Staying with said person, even if they aren’t perfect cause you want to make it ‘work’. Hence, love is learned.

[Ravenbomb 0]

"Not Fade Away"

Is that the title or what it's referring to?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

"Not Fade Away" is in reference to:

 

Illyria says _______ is "fading away" ie: dying. She can sense when someones life is ending.

[Ravenbomb 0]

nevermind, I found it. It was that Rolling Stones song

[Hank Kingsley 0]

2. This could quite possibly be the best episode ever.

Damn right!

 

I was skeptical about the ending at first, but it sounds AWESOME. Ending before the actual battle is pretty genius. Plus, the last words in the series are from Reservoir Dogs. Excellent.

[Guest 11and0baby]

Re Final Episode.

 

Wes/Illyria scence is tear-jerking just reading it and if it plays out that well there isn't gonna be a dry eye in the house.

 

We're back in Spike's apartment, the entire gang gathered for Angel's Last Big Speech. "This may come out a little pretentious," he begins, "But one of you will betray me." Spike's hand shoots up <----Thats an awesome bit of continuity for the whole season and SO GLAD that they didn't make these two suddenly be Best Friends, that and its pretty funny.

 

The storytelling in the final is out of this world. THAT IS A SEASON FINAL and can't really be ended much better.

[Guest Brian]

Mistake

[Mole 0]

From what I have read, the Grateful Dead song, "Not Fade Away" was the base for the finally. I PRAY they play that song at the end, that would be a big mark out moment for me.

[Ravenbomb 0]

Oh. Well, I remembered it from the Rolling Stones song

[Mole 0]

Well it was a cover, I should have said that. But that Dead song is better, just because it is the Dead.

[Mole 0]

BIG FUCKIN NEWS!!!!

 

From an inside source at NBC :

 

"It has come to our attention that there has been a vast public interest to see a return of this series. A forthcoming series is in negotiation, and NBC will go ahead with a sixth season if the public response is strong enough."

 

The reliability of the source has been checked with NBC Internal Documents.

 

Buffy.nu : We already know that the final meeting with angel writers and producers has been set up in a few weeks (we got the date), so you have time to show your support to these negociations by replying to this article !

 

We ask for help from all Buffy/Angel/Firefly websites and all the Whedon Fandom, NBC will check the feedback on this page, so show your angel love here !

[Mole 0]

SIGN HERE BITCHES!!!

 

Get ALL of your friends/family/anyone you know to sign it. I'm going to tell all of my friends to sign it tomorrow. It is already my away message.