The One and Only Angel Season 5 Thread

[Hank Kingsley 0]

Okay, I finally (finally!) got my "Origin" script in the mail from vipfanclubs.com.

 

I'm a little disappointed, because 1) for $6 normal shipping, you think they'd get it to you quicker than a week. 2) it came in the regular mail, so it was bent and whatnot, so the pages are a little crinkled.

 

Besides that, this is really cool. I've only read 10 pages so far, and I've seen one piece of dialogue that was cut out (a conversation between Harmony & Angel right before Connor says "Hey Dad!")

[Anya 0]

Yes what about the scoobies? This is Angel season 6 we're talking about, not Buffy "season 8." Frankly, the less Andrew on my tv, the better.

 

 

Uh, yeah, but even if they don't appear on TV they have to do something about the scoobies. You can't just pretend they don't exist.

 

 

 

Even though I don't see it as one, the characters always refered to the mayor's ascension as an apocolypse.

[Ripper 0]

I'd say the whole Beast ordeal would be classified as an Apocalypse. Though I guess Angelus gets credit for that.

The beast was just setting the stage for Jasmine. he wasn't destroying the earth. he was just making all the signs come to pass for Jasmine to be born. The beast was Jasmines bitch, and knew its role. Jasmine needed the world to exist to survive.

 

And with the Mayor, they used Apocolypse alot. But with the Mayor, just like Anya said, would basically devourer the whole town of sunnydale just like it did that other town she was in when the last accentsion took place. Sunnydale disappearing doesn't count as a apocolypse.

[Anya 0]

Yeah, but he'd probably move on to other towns.

 

The definition of apocolypse just isn't clear enough. Everyone refers to FE's ubies as one, but it wasn't much more of one than Adam's evil scheme.

[Molotov The Bear 0]

It was suggested that Angel HAD shansu’ed – through Connor

 

Wow that's deep.

And makes perfect sense.

 

I don't get how Angel shansu’ed through Connor - isn't it an apocalypse thing? Something that has nothing to do with Connor.

 

From "Not Fade Away" after Hamilton Dies:

 

[building rumbles.]

Conner: Uh, that's not good, is it?

Angel: Wolfram & Hart. Looks like they're taking the gloves off.

Conner: What do we do?

Angel: You go home.

Conner: Huh?

Angel: This is my fight.

Conner: That's some serious macho--Aah!

[building begins to collapse.]

Angel: Go home...now.

Conner: They'll destroy you.

Angel: As long as you're okay, they can't. Go.

[dubq 0]

Yes what about the scoobies? This is Angel season 6 we're talking about, not Buffy "season 8." Frankly, the less Andrew on my tv, the better.

 

 

Uh, yeah, but even if they don't appear on TV they have to do something about the scoobies. You can't just pretend they don't exist.

Uh, yeah, but not if the show isn't about the scoobies. They did just fine with minimal references to them leading up to that, and they would have done just after the fact.

[Ripper 0]

Yeah, but he'd probably move on to other towns.

 

The definition of apocolypse just isn't clear enough. Everyone refers to FE's ubies as one, but it wasn't much more of one than Adam's evil scheme.

that wasn't the First's plan. Its plan was to kill all of the potential slayers, then the slayers, allowing its power to grow and take over the world since it was the role of the slayer to defeat the evil. No slayers, no real evil fighters out there that are a threat. Buffy was all "fuck that" and took the battle to the hellmouth.

[Anya 0]

Uh, yeah, but not if the show isn't about the scoobies. They did just fine with minimal references to them leading up to that, and they would have done just after the fact.

 

 

I never said they had to be a focus, I just wondered what they would do about them. Do you actually have a point or do you just feel like getting on my case?

 

 

 

FE dropped the slayer line plan a while before Caleb arrived. It's plan at the end was to overrun the Earth with ubies, which would either make it corporeal or allow it to merge with everyone.

[Guest Brian]

They were going to use the ubies to overrun things, killing off all the slayer line and the potentials. But Wolfram and Hart wasn't going to let that happen, they weren't going to let FE take their apocalypse. So after the bringers (and their other agents) couldn't perform, they went with the bigger guns like Caleb and eventually, the entire army.

[Anya 0]

Again, the Slayer line thing was dropped. FE itself said it's goal was to become corporeal, which would happen when ubies out number humans. The slayer line has nothing to do with it's plan in the end.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

Was it just me, or was the first evil really dumb? Poor evil, no wonder it always seems to lose.

[Anya 0]

FE was pretty stupid. You'd think something that had been around as long as it wouldn't be so retarded, but apparently not. It's funny how it messed around with bringing Andrew and Jonathan back to SD and all that nonsense with the seal when it turned out just any blood would open it.

 

 

I still want to know why it needed Andrew and Spike......

[Mole 0]

FE was pretty stupid. You'd think something that had been around as long as it wouldn't be so retarded, but apparently not. It's funny how it messed around with bringing Andrew and Jonathan back to SD and all that nonsense with the seal when it turned out just any blood would open it.

 

 

I still want to know why it needed Andrew and Spike......

For Andrew, got me.

 

For Spike? So it would distract Buffy.

[Anya 0]

That is nonsense.

 

Distract her from what? The ubies? Killing the SITs? Caleb? It wasn't hiding any of that. It often took the fight directly to her. In fact it was so open it actually told her it's evil scheme face to face!

 

 

Also, if it was just distraction why did it keep mentioning that it wasn't time yet? Time for what? Time to...distract~! Come on...it's totally obvious there was something big with Spike that they decided against about halfway through.

[Guest Brian]

I always figured it saw Spike, the vampire with a soul, as key to the apocalypse.

 

As for Andrew, he was the weakest link of the scoobies and most subsceptible to the attempts.

[Anya 0]

Spike ended up having nothing to do with it though, it was all about the ubies. It didn't need Spike any more than it would need Xander.

 

Andrew wasn't even a scooby when it brought him to SD. Why bring in two nerds from Mexico? It went through so much trouble when it could have just had Bringers do it. It makes no sense. I'm really glad Andrew was brought back, but they did a terrible job explaining why.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

I finally saw Reprise. Damn, that was a great episode. Holland Manners was just so excellent, it's too bad there wasn't more of him. I thought season 2 was pretty lacking until Angel fired the crew...it's definately picked up with the last few episodes. Wes gets shot and gets his heart broken, which is kinda the way things keep on going for the poor bastard. I guess he had a whole two episodes to be happy with Fred, so that's something.

[dubq 0]

I never said they had to be a focus, I just wondered what they would do about them. Do you actually have a point or do you just feel like getting on my case?

A little from column a, a little from column b.

[Anakin Flair 0]

I think that Spikes role was going to be to kill Buffy. The First triggers him, and he goes wacko, killing off Buffy and the Scoobies. He was the most likely to succeed, seeing as how he killed two slayers previously.

HOWEVER, the trigger seemed to dull his intelligence, as freakin' PRINCIPAL WOOD kicked his ass untill he snapped out of it.

 

And I think the 'eliminate the slayers' plotline continued to almost the last episode. While it wasn't the Firs'ts primary goal anymore, it did wipe out a lot of the potentials. We just don't know how many.

[Ravenbomb 0]

Yeah, the First didn't really have anything trying to oppose it while it was killing the potentials.

[Anya 0]

I got my W&H shirt in today. It's awesome.

 

 

If Spike's role was just to kill Buffy that's pretty weak after all the build.

 

Same with the SIT thing. After all that hype, with the Eye talking about the disturbance and all the lectures it all comes down to FE just not wanting them to get in the way? The SIT plan was the focus of the show for like months and it ended up just being that it didn't want SITs around for it's ubie army. That's so lame.

 

 

I wonder what it would have looked like corporeal? A big hoss demon or just it's regular shapeshifting form?

[Anakin Flair 0]

If Spike's role was just to kill Buffy that's pretty weak after all the build.

Not really.

Buffy has shown that she was unwilling to kill Spike for whatever reason. She also had/has feelings for him. The First used that to its advantage.

[Anya 0]

Yeah, but that's so anti-climatic.

[Ripper 0]

When did it ever stop its goal to kill the potentials. It tried to get Andrew to shoot them all, sent in Calab was, once again, not to kill Buffy, but to take out the potentials. Once they found buffy, it got harder, so a bunch of the eyeless wonders couldn't pull it off, so it came with the ubies to try and take out the gals. The point was always to take out the slayer line so their would be no more slayer.

 

 

And Spike...well... he had a in to buffy. The first time the First tried to kill her, it used Angel, the vampire powerful enough to fight her with the emotional attachment that could give him the upper hand. Same with Spike.

 

OR

 

In a "I know this isn't how the writers intended it to be written but thats how it came out" kinda way, Spikes destiny was always supposed to be for him to die closing that hellmouth. Thats why Buffy could never kill him. Thats why he kept being drawn back to Sunnydale. All the things that happened to him, from being sired by Dru(without whom he never would have come to sunnydale) to the inititive giving him a in with Buffy, to him failing to beat doc who really shouldn't have been that much of a challenge(without buffy's death he never would have seeked out a soul to be good enough for her). The first tried to get to spike as much as possible. To lead him to turn on buffy and get him on its side. Why did it need Spike on its side? Because it knew that he was the key to one of the ways to stop it. Without Spike, Buffy and the SITs lose. They all get the beat down. Spike was the turning point. he was the key to the win. If the First gets him on their side it wins.

[Anya 0]

FE says the ubies were so it could become corporeal, not to kill SITs. The last few times it talks to Caleb and then Buffy about it's plans it talks entirely about ubies taking over the world and it becoming corporeal and says nothing at all about the SITs. In it's last promos there is nothing to suggest the SITs had anything to do with it's goal or plan. It clearly says it's goal is to become corporeal by having ubies outnumber humans. What do the SITs have to do with that? Besides a weaksauce damage control explination like "well...with the SITs out of the way it'd be easier".

 

 

 

How would FE had known Spike was the key to closing the hellmouth? The Amulet wasn't even brought to SD until Chosen and there was no hints or build that Spike would be key. The only explination is that FE has knowledge of the future and you REALLY don't want to go that direction when defending it because that would just make FE look even more stupid than it already does.

[Ripper 0]

FE says the ubies were so it could become corporeal, not to kill SITs. The last few times it talks to Caleb and then Buffy about it's plans it talks entirely about ubies taking over the world and it becoming corporeal and says nothing at all about the SITs. In it's last promos there is nothing to suggest the SITs had anything to do with it's goal or plan. It clearly says it's goal is to become corporeal by having ubies outnumber humans. What do the SITs have to do with that? Besides a weaksauce damage control explination like "well...with the SITs out of the way it'd be easier".

When the Ubie was first brought up, what was it brought to do? Come to the house and kill as many of the SITS as possible. The trap with the bomb was set up to do what? Kill as many of the SIT and slayers if possible. The trap in the winery was set up to do what? Have Caleb meet buffy for one and set up a trap to take out some SITs. The First said HOW many times during the season that it was after them. It mentioned it as late as Get it done, Killer in me and Storyteller and Dirty Girls. It never stopped mentioning until Buffy came up with the bright idea to take the entire fight to them instead of waiting there to let it pick them off one by one. The thing wanted to wipe out the slayer line. I don't know what more you really want besides them plainly SAYING...which they did do.

[Anakin Flair 0]

I understand what you mean Anya, but I think the whole Corporeal deal was another plan entirely, one to be carried out once the potentials were all dead.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

1. The first was messing with Spike to drive a wedge between the slayer and the scoobies. Other things support "the first wants to break up the scoobies", like telling Dawn that Buffy won't choose her, and -of course- the slayer breaking up with the scoobies.

 

2. This is speculation with some support, the First was worried about the Scythe - since it is the weapon of the slayer. The first was protecting it/trying to find it (if forget which), but it WAS important. This explains why it wanted to get rid of all the potential slayers - so none of them could use that weapon // or // the weapon couldn't be used to make them all slayers. It is Ironic that these two plans fucked the first over - as it was when buffy was separated from the scoobies that she found the scythe.

 

3. Andrew was easily manipulated, which is why the first used him. Plus, he's so likable that the scoobies wouldn't kill him/kick him out. Pretty simple.

[Guest Brian]

Round Three of the Best Episode Contest is up. I've inherited it from Mole.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I rented Buffy Season 5 dvd 5&6.

 

... I'm kinda excited about watching it.

 

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What have I become?