Old school vs. New school Final Fantasy

[AndrewTS 0]

Okay, to prevent the cluttering up on the overrated games thread with off-topic stuff, I decided to make a new thread.

 

So let's compare and contrast those wonderful SNES titles with the overhyped hunks of crap that the current Final Fantasy games are.

 

Okay, I'll admit obvious bias to the older games. I grew up with the SNES titles, while I've encountered the newer titles as a more cynical adult. Perhaps nostalgia has made the SNES games seem better than the current crop?

 

I think not.

 

So, whatever side of the debate you're on, unless you don't give a crap at all, state it and reasons why.

 

I personally don't hate the new games vehemently--I think Vivi is one of the most well-developed and sympathetic characters in any RPG, however, PlayOnline really hurt FFIX if you like going after secrets.

 

I'll start by listing things from FFVI that FFVII ripped off (I've only played through FFII aka IV Japan once as opposed to the half-dozen or so I have FFVI, so maybe some one more familiar with IV can chime in on that.

 

Anyway, I'll go over some of the great features about VI that makes that game so great to me. Features marked with an asterisk ( * ) are one that were simply borrowed from VI to make the unimaginative FFVII.

 

The Opera House Scene

 

Winning items in the Colosseum*

 

Hidden/optional party members*

 

Individual endings for each character (NOPE, DON'T HAVE THAT IN VII!)

 

Villian that isn't blatantly ripped off from Phantasy Star, and is also delightly evil as opposed to angsty bishonen evil.

 

Well-fleshed out backstories for most party members, and more of them.

 

Actually going into some one's dreams/nightmares for one of the missions (optional in FFVI)*

 

A sasquatch that attacks with reckless abandon, and the most powerful character when used correctly, GOGO THE MIME!

 

A ninja who is actually a badass and not a whiny little bitch.

 

Death scenes that make you sad, not make you laugh.

 

The Paladin Shield sidequest.

 

Plenty of different skills for characters such as Steal, Mimic, Blue Magic, Rage, Blitz, etc. that helped define the characters' personas--note that FFVII didn't really do much but just rehash them in little stones.

 

A comedic recurring villian*

 

Esper system, which is similar to the materia except that it actually is interwoven into the plot.

 

Dungeons that must be navigated through the cooperative effort of a couple of different parties.*

 

While there is somewhat of a main character (Terra), you aren't forced to control her for 95% of the game if you don't want to.

[Damaramu 0]

Umm...half the stuff you said is opinion and personal preference.

Because the death scenes sure as hell didn't make me laugh in FFVII.

 

I like old and new Final Fantasies.

I love Final Fantasy 6. I hate FF 4 and 5. I love Final Fantasy 7 and 10. I hate FF 8 and 9.

[Renegade 0]

Eh I dont really like any of the FF games, VI was one of the better ones but Square has always done much better.

[Renegade 0]

Because the death scenes sure as hell didn't make me laugh in FFVII.

Oh come now, the main death scene in FFVII was hillarious.

[Jer 0]

I love Final Fantasy 6. I hate FF 4 and 5. I love Final Fantasy 7 and 10. I hate FF 8 and 9.

 

Yep, same here. FF6 is my favorite game ever, because it has an amazing plot and the best gameplay in the FF series, imo. I also love 7 and 10 because they had great plots that I enjoyed the whole way through. On the other hand, FF4, 5, 8 and 9 had boring characters and a boring plot, so I could never get into them, regardless of what their gameplay was like. FF5 admittedly had really cool gameplay with the class system, but the plot was so bad that I was always bored with it.

[Damaramu 0]

Well I think FF8 had a good premise...I liked the outline. Of the special forces and the school that trains them. But things just seem to go awry.

I also like 6,7,and 10 because I like where you build to the enemy and hate him throughout the game as opposed to him just dropping in on you like in 8 and 9.

Also 6 had a story for every character and they were unique as opposed to 8 and it's "hey we all grew up together...thus we have the same backstory"/

[Guest Coffey]

I hate the next generation polygon look of the Final Fantasy games. To me, Final Fantasy III was the best game by far. Hell, I like part II better than VII even. I just like the FF games better when they are in 2D.

[Lightning Flik 0]

I hate the next generation polygon look of the Final Fantasy games. To me, Final Fantasy III was the best game by far. Hell, I like part II better than VII even. I just like the FF games better when they are in 2D.

You mean U.S. 2 and 3.

 

Otherwise known in the "true" Final Fantasy scheme as 4 and 6.

 

Anyways, I must say that Old School FF is better than New School FF simply because the games were about the gameplay (I classify story with gameplay). The New School is dependent on the graphics and trying to make the game look good.

 

That doesn't mean they are bad, but just different. However, I haven't been impressed with the PS1/2 console games. Only one that was of any damn was FF7 and that's about it.

 

I haven't touched 8, 9, or 10 in a long time.

 

I'm not even touching 10-2 because 10 should've been the end.

[AndrewTS 0]

Umm...half the stuff you said is opinion and personal preference.

Repeat:

 

"Anyway, I'll go over some of the great features about VI that makes that game so great to me."

 

So yes, what's your point?

 

Because the death scenes sure as hell didn't make me laugh in FFVII.

 

Watching one Precious Moments figure have the polygons of his sword enter the polygonal model of the other character, and watching the saccharine Aerith plop over dead while a piece of glass (white materia--whatever) falls out of her eye, and goes "dink...dink" bouncing into the water wasn't hilarious? At least the FFVI deaths didn't give you close ups of the action to see how hokey the sprites looked.

 

I like old and new Final Fantasies.

I love Final Fantasy 6. I hate FF 4 and 5. I love Final Fantasy 7 and 10. I hate FF 8 and 9.

 

I hate 8 (mainly because of the Junction system), love 9 except for the way PlayOnline ruined it,and can't comment on 10.

 

Although odd you'd dislike 4--I'm curious why. Care to explain, please?

[Damaramu 0]

It was very boring. It didn't even hold my interest enough for me to finish the damn thing. I got halfway through it...looked up the painfully boring and predictable story online and then quit.

[Lightning Flik 0]

watching the saccharine Aerith plop over dead while a piece of glass (white materia--whatever) falls out of her eye, and goes "dink...dink" bouncing into the water wasn't hilarious?

Uh, it was a part of her ribbon for her hair. So it fell out of that. You really didn't pay too much attention to her mentioning that in the Church did you? Not that I'm trying to start something, just saying.

 

Anyways, I must tell of my love for FF4 for only one reason.

 

Tellah "YOU SPOONY BARD~!"

[Black Lushus 0]

yeah i have to admit, Aerith's death was kinda shocking at the time...it happened so early on in the game, kinda like Charlie Sheen dying 30 minutes into Young Guns, I was like, what the fuck?!

[Guest Sakura]

New school owns the old school. I play FF for the story and the old school stories are lame. They're just too simple. Like the much hyped Cecil/Kain "saga" in IV is so overrated. It's not deep or emotional. It's just like "uh, I'm not evil anymore" "ok, cool, let's go find big evil!".

 

VI rules though, I consider it new school pretty much. It's really cinematic(and easy). If it had FMV instead of sprites acting out the cutscenes it would be just like the other modern games.

 

 

Oh, and Squall & Rinoa are the best ever.

[Star Ocean 3 0]

None of the FFs were really awesome, but they're all decent, at least. Excluding the first one.

 

The melodrama and soap opera stories in the newer ones are done poorly, so the story isn't the best part. I can't stand most FF characters, either. All that's left is the actualy game, which is pretty much the same for each one.

 

Of course, Tactics is the best FF. And Mystic Quest.

[Damaramu 0]

Mystic Quest!?!?!?!? That's the worst one!

[Jer 0]

I actually like FF1 because it has good old school gameplay. I love the customizability, it's fun. It doesn't have a plot, but having no plot is better than having time wasted on a terrible plot, ala FF4 and FF5. The original NES version is unplayably archaic, but the PS1 remake is quite awesome.

 

I hate FF4 because it tried to get over on the plot and the characters, but the plot and the characters all sucked. All the characters were cardboard cutouts with no depth to them at all. Why am I supposed to care when undeveloped characters sacrifice themselves to save other undeveloped characters? The only characters I liked were unplayable (Golbez and Fu So Ya), and instead of using Golbez as a villian, they used the retarded "God of Hate" that you hadn't even seen until the very end. Yuck. The gameplay was terrible too, since you had no freedom whatsoever. They always told you what to do and who to use, which felt horribly constraining after FF1, where you could choose your party and, after beating Lich, do things in whatever order you wanted. And the mangled prototype ATB was an important step towards the beauty of real ATB, but was so badly done that it's worse than turn based battle.

[AndrewTS 0]

watching the saccharine Aerith plop over dead while a piece of glass (white materia--whatever) falls out of her eye, and goes "dink...dink" bouncing into the water wasn't hilarious?

Uh, it was a part of her ribbon for her hair. So it fell out of that. You really didn't pay too much attention to her mentioning that in the Church did you? Not that I'm trying to start something, just saying.

 

Anyways, I must tell of my love for FF4 for only one reason.

 

Tellah "YOU SPOONY BARD~!"

Yeah, hehehe. It outclasses "you crazy funster!" slightly.

 

However, FFVI still has it beat with "you licentious howler!" which is what Cyan (?) called that hooker that was propositioning him. Maybe if he cut her in half to this day we'd still be calling it GREATEST GAME EVER!

 

I thought it was the white materia. *shrug* Okay, so it's been years since I played it, and only played through it once, so my bad.

 

Shockingly, I thought Sakura would hate FFVI. Hm, turns out we're not too far off on that regard. Still, I played FFVII, played though it completely, was mostly "saw this all before..." in regards to the major story elements, and almost all of the revived gameplay aspects.

 

One aspect of the Materia that was nice: at least you were prevented from teaching everyone every single spell and they'd know it for the rest of the game. I personally prefer having designated healers, magic attackers, etc--which is one reason why I liked the way FFIV actually played. Although it means the magic-users have pussy, useless physical attacks.

 

Oh, and Squall & Rinoa are the best ever.

 

...in Sakura's opinion. Consider the source.

Edited September 22, 2003 by AndrewTS

[Lightning Flik 0]

Oh, and Squall & Rinoa are the best ever.

 

...in Sakura's opinion. Consider the source.

Is she talking in game romance? Cause, like no. Hell no.

 

I haven't seen a romance in a game that has actually any meaning to it that actually made me care about it. Squall and Rinoa certainly don't even come close to being "best" or even "good".

 

And just to add (this is for Sakura), it's hard to slander the Old School games for "oh, it's cookie cutter" because they didn't have as much to power or graphics or heck to work with. Take FF7 and they had a much better system to work with to make that game, hence you can cram everything needed to make that story ten times better.

 

Really it isn't fair to judge the two different ones. And yes, Sakura, FF6 borderlines old and new, however, it's a nice mix and why it's the best out of all of it.

 

Plus, may I also add that EVER character in any story is a "cookie cutter" type. You just need to flesh them out.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

It depends. Both old-school and new-school are hit or miss. I completely agree that VI is the best one, but IX is close behind. Both have fun, adventurous characters as opposed to whining bitches. There is a reason people like Han Solo (Zidane Tribal) better than Luke Skywalker (Squall Leonhart). That said, time has passed the old school by and I don't want to go back.

 

Here is my list...

 

1. VI. FFVI remains my favourite video game of all time. It is also the least linear of the series. This is more of a game and less of an interactive book then the rest of the series.

 

2. IX. The best characters of the series (Vivi, Zidane, etc.) are in this game. It lacks the exploration aspect of VI however, so it isn't quite as fun to play.

 

3. V. A nice, if simple story and the best fighting system in the series.

 

4. VII. The first attempt at a more modern setting, and this time it works. My favourite score is from this game. It is also the darkest FF.

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

The human race is wiped out at the end.

There are two major flaws with this game. First, there is a huge gap between the Shin-Ra parade at Junon and the Crater where not much happens (with one exception). Second, although Shin-Ra and the Turks are probably the most entertaining villains in the series, the main party is unremarkable.

 

5. IV. A good game. Not great in any area, but solid. A quick mention to the 5 person fights, which really spoiled me when many of the later FFs only have 3 guys. Thank God, for Suikoden.

 

6. II. Like IV, but even simpler. Dated by today's standards but still fun.

 

7. X. The fighting is the second best in the series to V. But I hated the story, characters (except Auron), and voice acting (also excepting Auron). Xenosaga is much better on all 3 counts.

 

8. VIII. I actually like the characters, and the story is pretty good until it starts getting into this Ultimecia crap. But the GF/Draw system is so tedious that I hate to play the fucking thing. Square forgot that FF is a game first and a story second.

 

9. I. No longer holds up, even with the graphical improvements.

 

I haven't played III.

[AndrewTS 0]

It depends. Both old-school and new-school are hit or miss. I completely agree that VI is the best one, but IX is close behind. Both have fun, adventurous characters as opposed to whining bitches. There is a reason people like Han Solo (Zidane Tribal) better than Luke Skywalker (Squall Leonhart). That said, time has passed the old school by and I don't want to go back.

 

Heh, we're pretty much on the same page. I loved the freedom that FFVI afforded, because I love non-linearity in my games.

 

I also did dig FFIX, Vivi rules, although I personally wasn't too big on Zidane.

 

However, unlike you I can go back, because to me really good games always stand the test of time. However, I play my GBA more than my PS2, so consider that.

 

7. X. The fighting is the second best in the series to V. But I hated the story, characters (except Auron), and voice acting (also excepting Auron). Xenosaga is much better on all 3 counts.

 

I'd REALLY hate X, then.

Edited September 22, 2003 by AndrewTS

[Guest Sakura]

...in Sakura's opinion. Consider the source.

Why would I not be a valid source? I own and have played every regular FF released in the United States. I like new school. Big deal. Get over it.

 

And I do mean romance. Squall/Rinoa is the best couple in FF. Second is Tidus/Yuna. Both own. Squall is the best character like ever. I love him. The angst is cool.

 

 

 

And just to add (this is for Sakura), it's hard to slander the Old School games for "oh, it's cookie cutter" because they didn't have as much to power or graphics or heck to work with. Take FF7 and they had a much better system to work with to make that game, hence you can cram everything needed to make that story ten times better.

 

 

How much power is needed for text? I'm not talking about a lack of CG(though CG does own). I'm talking about no story AT ALL. Up until VI's the stories were like nonexistent. It was like you were reading a short version of a story. I never said anything about cookie cutter stories being bad. It's that in the old games they're too simple. Like in V it is like the entire story is X-Death is a mean old tree monster and you have to get the crystals. And that's IT. Again, look at the hyped up Cecil/Kain stuff. This story is hyped as this epic saga and it's really like Kain turns heel and Cecil is like "nooooo~!" and then the scene is over. There's no depth, no emotion, it's like barely explained. Cecil never talks about it or anything. The scene with Cecil turning into a Paladin is also extremely short and no big deal, despite being hyped as this classic moment. Even if it is a hardware problem, why should I care? The topic is to compare them...hardware's fault or not.

 

For the record I still like IV and V, just not as much as new school. Though I'll probably never beat them again(too much leveling up).

[dubq 0]

FF6(3) on SNES was and always will be my favourite. They packed so much into that game that it's just unbelieveable for a 16-bit system. I've always said that if they had of went with the story from FF6 when making the FF Movie, that it would have done a hell of a lot better.

 

I actually never played FF7. Though, everyone tells me that I really should.

 

FF8 was the first of the "next gen" FF games that I played and while it was fun to a point, I got really bored of it, really fast. So much, that I never even bothered to finish it.

 

From what I saw of FF9 [never played it, but a friend of mine had it when it came out] I wasn't to impressed.

 

I still haven't played any of the FFX* games, either. I'm just not that into them anymore. Though, I will give the Crystal Chronicles a go when it is released on the Cube.

 

Honestly, it just seems to me that none of these next-gen RPG games can even hold a candle to their 16-bit predecessors. FF6 is way better than any of the next gen games I've played. Not to mention, Chrono Trigger is leaps and bounds better than Chrono Cross. Wierd, don't you think?

[Guest Sakura]

Reasons FF VII is god: Complete with SPOILERS

 

1. Cloud is the original FF angst filled lead character and angst filled lead characters are cool. His look, with the goofy spiked hair and his hoss sword are cool.

 

2. Aeris is the cliche sweet and innocent girl character, but her death is really well done and not at all funny. Also it is cool that in the end her death is what saves the planet.

 

3. Barrett is Mr. T with a chain gun. That owns.

 

4. Cid is funny and a badass. His ranting on Shera is entertaining no matter how many times I play through the game.

 

5. Cait Sith is the best comic relief/weird character design EVER MADE. You cannot beat a cape and crown wearing cat on top of a stuffed mog. He is so cute and adorable I wish I owned one. What's even better and weirder is that he is actually relevent the story and even turns heel for a bit. Cats rule so he automatically is incredible.

 

6. Shinra is the most badass stable of villains in gaming. You've got Rufus, Reeve and Rude in one group. Heidegger and Palmer round it out(pun intended) with some memorable comedy.

 

7. Sephiroth is the original angst filled FF villain and still the best. Angst + bishonen = cool. He has a cool outfit and the coolest music. Final boss form is one of my all time favorite boss fights in gaming.

 

8. Memorable cities. Junon, Midgar, the Golden Saucer, are all really awesome. Like I can remember every town and location fondly, unlike a lot of games where I forget them and get them mudeled up while still playing the game.

 

9. Excellent soundtrack. So many tunes that I love. Not as good as VIII's though and the quality could have been better.

 

10. Simple fighting system, but has a lot of room for experimentation and tons of stuff to use.

 

11. The game is easy and doesn't require hours and hours of leveling up like some old school games.

 

 

 

Is this enough?

[dubq 0]

It's more then enough. I'm not saying I don't want to play it.. I just never got around to it. =\

[Guest Sakura]

That reply was for Andrew, not you. In another thread he said he wanted reasons.

[Star Ocean 3 0]

Cait Sith is nice, but is nowhere near being the best comedy character.

[Lightning Flik 0]

How much power is needed for text? I'm not talking about a lack of CG(though CG does own). I'm talking about no story AT ALL. Up until VI's the stories were like nonexistent. It was like you were reading a short version of a story. I never said anything about cookie cutter stories being bad. It's that in the old games they're too simple. Like in V it is like the entire story is X-Death is a mean old tree monster and you have to get the crystals. And that's IT. Again, look at the hyped up Cecil/Kain stuff. This story is hyped as this epic saga and it's really like Kain turns heel and Cecil is like "nooooo~!" and then the scene is over. There's no depth, no emotion, it's like barely explained. Cecil never talks about it or anything. The scene with Cecil turning into a Paladin is also extremely short and no big deal, despite being hyped as this classic moment. Even if it is a hardware problem, why should I care? The topic is to compare them...hardware's fault or not.

 

For the record I still like IV and V, just not as much as new school. Though I'll probably never beat them again(too much leveling up).

Text doesn't take up all that much, I admit Sakura. However, this WAS when programmers where just starting out working on graphically imputes, gameplay, and everything else. All they had to work with is a single 16 bit cartridge. The SNES had about let's say 166Mhz and about maybe 16MB RAM (please don't take these as exact as I don't have the exact specs on hand to actually show the difference).

 

FFVII had 3 CDs that hold up to 720MB a CD, and on a machince that is about 400Mhz, also has about 32MB RAM (whatever type was popular, I forget, but it would be a better RAM than in the SNES). You can't tell me there wouldn't be a difference in how you can build up the game? I certainly can see a difference. Even if I fucked up on the specs there is still a difference on what can be done.

 

Add into the fact that since FF games were originally in Japanese, they had to cut stuff out of the translations to get it to fit as back with Old School, you had hardly a lot to work with in terms of trying to rewrite stuff. Yes, it was like reading a short story version. In essence that was what it was. A short story of the Japanese story.

 

But that's what they had to work with. I wasn't slighting the New School games because of that, I'm saying it was hard to compare becuase they didn't have a hell of a lot to work with back then, so it's highly unfair to compare it unless they updated it. Like how the original Wild Arms is about to be remade (or as I should correct myself it has been).

 

 

Old School vs. New School is a hard subject to make into a tangible arguement because you'd have to be willing to take up the limitations and stuff that went into the Old School.

 

Really these arguements are kinda silly, because in the end, it'll all come down to personal opinion.

[{''({o..o})''} 0]

I'll just post this for now with a more detailed posr latter when I have time later. I favor the old school Final Fantasies better because the characters were actually likeable.

 

Cloud, as cool of a character as he was falls into the Square cliche (memory lose/unknown past that was fresh when ff6 used it with Terra), was the beginning of the whiny and or antisocial head characters that we are supposed to like because they have a big sword or are an~xtreme~ sports guy or thief, and in my opinion, just way too over powered with his omni-slash.

 

Sqall was just a prick with a scar and a sword and had a romance story that was pretty laughable, and was outclassed by his rival in almost every way in the game.

 

Zidane just was too flat as a character, contantly being overshadowed by the best new school character Vivi, with his surprise ending that was anything but a surprise.

 

Tidus, well, I'm was gonna try and say this nicely but loced like a fucking etard, hined about every damn thing in the game, had a romance with a charcter that would have been at least 5 times better with a different voice actress, and just made me want to slap him repeatedly.

[Jer 0]

Text doesn't take up all that much, I admit Sakura. However, this WAS when programmers where just starting out working on graphically imputes, gameplay, and everything else. All they had to work with is a single 16 bit cartridge. The SNES had about let's say 166Mhz and about maybe 16MB RAM (please don't take these as exact as I don't have the exact specs on hand to actually show the difference).

 

FFVII had 3 CDs that hold up to 720MB a CD, and on a machince that is about 400Mhz, also has about 32MB RAM (whatever type was popular, I forget, but it would be a better RAM than in the SNES). You can't tell me there wouldn't be a difference in how you can build up the game? I certainly can see a difference. Even if I fucked up on the specs there is still a difference on what can be done.

 

Hehe you really underestimate the exponential progession of computers. SNES ran at about 4 MHz with 128 KB of work RAM and 64 KB of VRAM. The entire cartridge for games was only between 1-4 MB, which is pretty amazing when you think about it. FF6... 3 MB. CT... 4 MB. That's some pretty amazing compression/programming efficiency.

 

PS1, I think, ran at 33 MHz (either 25 or 33, I get Saturn and PS1 mixed up), with 2 MB of work RAM and 1 MB of VRAM, I think. It's been a long time since I actually saw the specs.

 

But the point is, they both ran on hardware that by modern standards is unbelievably crappy. That doesn't add anything to the argument, but I find it interesting.

Edited September 22, 2003 by KoR Fungus

[Damaramu 0]

Why are angst ridden whiny characters cool? They're the kind of people I want to slap in real life and tell to grow up.

Why can't they be...you know....heroic? Why can't they be brave and not have all these teenage problems?