Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 It's not propoganda, Israel has tried to make peace many times, and it's either been completed ignored (Oslo) or rejected outright in favor of terrorism (Camp David). Israel should not have to jeapordize it's survival for the sake of a group of people who want nothing more for it to cease to exist. The disputed territories will be turned over only when there is a legitmate Palestinian authority that wipes out their terrorist groups and makes serious advances in promoting peace, democracy and acceptance of Jews. Otherwise, there's no neutral issue here. Please. Even if Palestine cuts all ties to state sponsored terrorism -- legitimately, even -- there will still be some nutcase who will suicide bomb some market in Israel and the Israelis will take back anything they were trying to do. There is such a thing as neutrality, and we haven't achieved it. Unless we do, there will be no peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Styles 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 You don't compromise with terrorists. Period. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Styles 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 In fact I'll counter your point. Let's say Israel relinquishes the land. You think THAT would stop the bombings? It won't stop until Israel itself is driven out or until the Palestinians stop brainwashing their children and dressing them up in suicide bomber costumes and guns during parades.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 Much like how not all Israelis want to develop settlements on that land and everything else Sharon is doing, not all Palestinians want to blow up Israelis. This is like saying how Southerners would never stop being racist as the children would be taught by the generation who were using blacks as slaves, and so on. While we still have Trent Lott and a few southerners that are thinking backwards, that's no longer a majority. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 If you don't wish to compromise with Palestine, then you obviously don't actually want peace in the Middle East. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Styles 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 If you don't wish to compromise with Palestine, then you obviously don't actually want peace in the Middle East. Is the Tinman and Dorothy there too? They've tried compromises, they've either been rejected or ignored and murder continues. Fuck 'em. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 Is the Tinman and Dorothy there too? They've tried compromises, they've either been rejected or ignored and murder continues. Fuck 'em. "You guys stop attacking us and stop complaining when we settle your lands and then, sometime in the future, we'll stop oppressing you." OKAY!@11!1!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Styles 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 You're a moron who appeals to emotion over facts. Or a liberal, same difference. You can check out the links I posted before, not that I think it will make a difference to you. I'm done. You can wait for Marney or Dr. Tom or someone who has more patience with you to argue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 Okay. They're going to say the same "PALESTINE SHOULD DIE AND ISRAEL IS THE MIDDLE EAST'S HAVEN OF DEMOCRACY" tripe that you did. You linked to an Israeli propoganda site, of course they're going to have good things to say about their own side. In reality, both sides are wrong and neither side is going to budge before the other one does. Why? Because neither side believes that the other one will follow through. THIS is why we need a neutral country to go in and mediate the conflict; that's the ONLY hope we have of resolving it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justice 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 I think we are as neutral as we are ever going to be right now. I know people say "Take away all the funding we give the Israelis and then it'll be fair!", to which I say "Yes, let's let a frighten pitbull off it's leash". In all honestly, that monetary flow is the only thing that is keeping Israel in a rational state of mind, and it gives us a nice amount of control to exercise over them. If we take that away, the Israelis will feel stranded in one hostile sea and I would not at ALL put it past them to start slaughtering the Palestinians in wholesale. But hey, if one wants to appear neutral at the cost of Israel going into military lockdown mode, feel free. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 I think we are as neutral as we are ever going to be right now. I know people say "Take away all the funding we give the Israelis and then it'll be fair!", to which I say "Yes, let's let a frighten pitbull off it's leash". In all honestly, that monetary flow is the only thing that is keeping Israel in a rational state of mind, and it gives us a nice amount of control to exercise over them. If we take that away, the Israelis will feel stranded in one hostile sea and I would not at ALL put it past them to start slaughtering the Palestinians in wholesale. But hey, if one wants to appear neutral at the cost of Israel going into military lockdown mode, feel free. Thus is the current conundrum we have. It's what we've been trying to deal with for however many years now, and it's not likely to stop for a long time. I think the only way we can achieve neutrality is to put on some farcical face that we're playing "tough" on Israel, but that's just me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 I think we are as neutral as we are ever going to be right now. I know people say "Take away all the funding we give the Israelis and then it'll be fair!", to which I say "Yes, let's let a frighten pitbull off it's leash". In all honestly, that monetary flow is the only thing that is keeping Israel in a rational state of mind, and it gives us a nice amount of control to exercise over them. I don't think we should do that, but I do think we should give money to Israel under the same rules we give money to other countries. Over multiple payments, instead of one lump sum. We also need to make sure when we say "Here, have this money, just don't spend it on weapons and military" that they actually do that. What we do right now is write a blank check, and we don't do that for any other countries. Despite what the right-wingers want to say, neither side has a moral high ground. Israel puts as many innocents at risk with it's tanks as innocent Israelis are at risk by terrorist bombers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 I'm an evil scummy bastard. Fuck you, Judge. Fuck you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 ^The hell did this come from?^ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justice 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 I'm an evil scummy bastard. Fuck you, Judge. Fuck you. Aw, wasn't that bitter? Do you still want me to dismantle the gun, Tyler? Come on, we all know that Peace Action boys carry 9mms ! For those who don't know what I'm talking about, prepare enter the wild world of the SWF Chat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0 Report post Posted October 2, 2003 Hey bitch, don't play with me. I know how to cover up a murder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 3, 2003 Regardless of whatever propoganda you may see about the Israel-Palestine situation, one thing is clear: for there to be any semblance of peace, both sides need to give up their egos and compromise. Israel needs to stop with the settlements and oppression, and Palestine obviously needs to stop state supported terrorism and cut ties with Arafat. Unless those two things happen -- and unless we actually act completely neutral in any potential peace talks -- there will never be peace in the Middle East. You're attempting to morally equate Israel and Palestine. There is NO moral equivalence here. Israel probably needs to stop with the settlements. But Palestine's whole "blowing up a whole bunch of innocents --- and rescue workers --- is an INFINITELY bigger problem and THAT is the problem. Israel, to this day, has shown more restraint than they SHOULD show when dealing with this. And we should NOT be "neutral" here. There is right and wrong and we need to support those who are right. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 3, 2003 Even if Palestine cuts all ties to state sponsored terrorism -- legitimately, even -- there will still be some nutcase who will suicide bomb some market in Israel and the Israelis will take back anything they were trying to do. And Israel would hardly be wrong to do so. When you sponsor terrorism for untold years, youve created an atmosphere of terrorism in your people. It's a mess and Yassir has to fix it. Of course, if Palestine was given EVERYTHING they wanted, they'd STILL bomb Israelis because their country would be economically backwards (assuming they run their country as their Arab brethren do) and they'd blame Israel for it. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 3, 2003 Despite what the right-wingers want to say, neither side has a moral high ground. Israel puts as many innocents at risk with it's tanks as innocent Israelis are at risk by terrorist bombers. A few HUGE differences: 1) With no bombers, there'd be no tanks. Keep the blame where it belongs. 2) Palestinians are hiding their terroists. 3) They INVENT "atrocities" (See Jenin) When Palestinians stopped bombing for a while, Israel didn't do ANYTHING to them. When the bombings started anew, Israel retaliated --- as well they should. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 3, 2003 Israel probably needs to stop with the settlements. But Palestine's whole "blowing up a whole bunch of innocents --- and rescue workers --- is an INFINITELY bigger problem and THAT is the problem. So, Israel puts absolutely no innocents at risk when they run a tank through the city street or use helicopter-launched missiles and blow up an entire comlex in an effort to kill one person? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 3, 2003 1) With no bombers, there'd be no tanks. Keep the blame where it belongs. Did the tanks go away during Hamas' caese-fire for the road map? Well? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 3, 2003 Israel probably needs to stop with the settlements. But Palestine's whole "blowing up a whole bunch of innocents --- and rescue workers --- is an INFINITELY bigger problem and THAT is the problem. So, Israel puts absolutely no innocents at risk when they run a tank through the city street or use helicopter-launched missiles and blow up an entire comlex in an effort to kill one person? And WHO'S fault is THAT? It's the sub-human monkeys who bomb innocent Israelis. If they didn't bomb, Israel wouldn't do anything. -=Mike ...When you have no shorage of bombers, the number of innocents you have is quite debatable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 3, 2003 1) With no bombers, there'd be no tanks. Keep the blame where it belongs. Did the tanks go away during Hamas' caese-fire for the road map? Well? Don't really remember any long-term cessation of bombings. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 3, 2003 And WHO'S fault is THAT? It's the sub-human monkeys who bomb innocent Israelis. The matter of concern is who, if anyone, has the moral "right" in this case. Your claim has always been that the bombers put innocents at risk. I won't deny that, but Israel's strong-arm tactics also place innocent people at risk. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 3, 2003 And WHO'S fault is THAT? It's the sub-human monkeys who bomb innocent Israelis. The matter of concern is who, if anyone, has the moral "right" in this case. Your claim has always been that the bombers put innocents at risk. I won't deny that, but Israel's strong-arm tactics also place innocent people at risk. The bombers hide in the populace and put them at risk. Either Israel does nothing and gets SERIOUSLY damaged --- or they fight back and differentiate as best they can. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 3, 2003 Don't really remember any long-term cessation of bombings. -=Mike They didn't want to stop at first but after pressured from Palestine agreed to take part in the cease-fire. When the roadmap fell apart, they announced they were resuming. Did Israeli enforcements at least thin during this period? With no military backdown at all, there's no real obvious sign to the other side that they're really seeking peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 3, 2003 Don't really remember any long-term cessation of bombings. -=Mike They didn't want to stop at first but after pressured from Palestine agreed to take part in the cease-fire. When the roadmap fell apart, they announced they were resuming. Did Israeli enforcements at least thin during this period? With no military backdown at all, there's no real obvious sign to the other side that they're really seeking peace. I remember bombings still going on during the "Road Map". And that the Palestinian P.M was forced down only shows that Arafat, that poster child for abortion, still pulls the strings. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 3, 2003 The bombers hide in the populace and put them at risk. Either Israel does nothing and gets SERIOUSLY damaged --- or they fight back and differentiate as best they can. -=Mike So you proved my point and agreed that both sides put each other's civilians at risk. That's what I'm talking about. It's like the political cartoon that says "Who's right?" and there's two graves, one Israeli and one Palestinian (marked with flags) next to each other. One says "ME" and the other one says "NO, ME." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 3, 2003 The bombers hide in the populace and put them at risk. Either Israel does nothing and gets SERIOUSLY damaged --- or they fight back and differentiate as best they can. -=Mike So you proved my point and agreed that both sides put each other's civilians at risk. That's what I'm talking about. It's like the political cartoon that says "Who's right?" and there's two graves, one Israeli and one Palestinian (marked with flags) next to each other. One says "ME" and the other one says "NO, ME." How 'bout this: 1) If no settlements were around and no tanks, would there be no more bombers? Highly unlikely. 2) If there were no bombers, would Israel go after Palestinians? Highly doubtful. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted October 3, 2003 1) If no settlements were around and no tanks, would there be no more bombers? Highly unlikely. Of course, because any amateur bomber who wanted to make an attempt would have an open oppertunity. If there were no settlements around and less tanks (but not no tanks at all), would that create a foundation to settle things? Who knows, and we probably won't until Sharon is replaced. 2) If there were no bombers, would Israel go after Palestinians? Highly doubtful.Both sides could probably use a change in figureheads, since both guys seem determined to make the other non-existant. But the old arguement that Palestinian culture must be eradicated entirely because of some violent parts that will most likely disappear after two generations of peace is overboard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
