The Matrix explained?

[Ravenbomb 0]

I've avoided a lot of the spoilers, so you're probably right, John Heard was in reference to them turning into 'fucking Mindwalk'

 

As far as the scorched earth hell hole thing goes, I'm interested to see how the Nebuchadnezzer looking ship going down with a blue-ish sky in the background at the end of the trailer fits in with that

[cabbageboy 0]

Make no mistake, I did understand most of what the Architect said. That's why it was so completely idiotic, I tried to put it into some kind of context. I mean, the guy basically dug a hole so deep that Revolutions can't dig its way out.

 

Let's see:

 

--Neo isn't actually The One, but more like the Sixth. Not only that, but the guys before him rebuilt Zion and then another rebellion, more destruction, more rebuilding, etc. I guess in a way you can say the US practices something like this (blow up Iraq, rebuild, blow it up again, etc.....various other countries fit the mold). In a more straight forward film (like Dr. Strangelove, a total war satire) this would be a good bit of business. In Reloaded it fell flat I thought.

 

The Architect's whole speech just kills the whole series if you think about it. Maybe he got some heel heat in his boring way, but at what cost? At this point they can't really destroy the Matrix in the final film, since 99% of the people in it prefer the Matrix. And if these sequels haven't been about the eventual destruction of the Matrix, what the hell HAVE they been about? What exactly is the point?

 

There isn't one.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It does kinda suck that they hid a major plot twist in with the "big talk" of the architect.

[Lightning Flik 0]

It does kinda suck that they hid a major plot twist in with the "big talk" of the architect.

But what sucks more?

 

Knowing the major plot twist is hidden there (and quite a few people I know missed it) or the fact that the plot twist basically fucks everything up till the point of no return?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Maybe they will make an animatrix about the other 5 Neos/Ones. I enjoyed the animatrix's more than Reloaded because they actually, you know, explained stuff rather than royally fuck with you.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

But I did like Reloaded, just to make that clear. If gave me a lot of stuff to think about, and that's cool... it just didn't leave a lot of closure (which Revolutions better fucking have)

[Lightning Flik 0]

But I did like Reloaded, just to make that clear. If gave me a lot of stuff to think about, and that's cool... it just didn't leave a lot of closure (which Revolutions better fucking have)

Let's put it this way with Reloaded:

 

I've never seen a second movie in ANY triology that doesn't play as filler or just totally BOTCH giving hints of closure.

 

All this movie did was make more questions, more mysteries, and more crap come out of it.

 

Shit, this movie truly does make me feel like Two Towers is a perfect example of the middle of a triology series.

 

I mean... Geezus, I've got a serious headache from this. ...no wait, that's actually from the pain I'm feeling. Nevermind.

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

1. Neo isn't actually The One, but more like the Sixth.

 

2. At this point they can't really destroy the Matrix in the final film, since 99% of the people in it prefer the Matrix.

1. Neo's not The One in The Matrix but could he be in the Real World? I think so based on him being the only one to choose the other door and stopping the Sentinels at the end.

 

2. They don't prefer the Matrix, their minds accept it. There's a major difference.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I've avoided a lot of the spoilers, so you're probably right, John Heard was in reference to them turning into 'fucking Mindwalk'

Both Jason Todd and Tommy Elliot are references of the recent year-long arc of BATMAN titled "Hush" that had everyone guessing about who the mystery guy was. Todd was the second (long-dead) Robin, Elliot was a childhood friend of Wayne's who reappeared in the second issue of the arc.

[cabbageboy 0]

No, I'm pretty sure I heard the Architect say something like "99% accepted the Matrix if given a choice between it and the real world" (which we all know is shitty at this point).

 

I also kinda disagree about the 2nd film in a trilogy usually being filler or fucking things up. Look at Empire. In that movie we have:

 

1. The introduction of Yoda, and Luke's subsequent Jedi training.

 

2. Han and Leia on the run from the Empire and falling in love.

 

3. The introduction of Lando, who is a more fascinating secondary character than ANYONE in Reloaded.

 

4. Han being sent back in the casing to Jabba.

 

5. The stunning relevation that Vader is Luke's dad.

 

How is any of this filler or fucking up? The Two Towers to some extent doesn't really go anywhere (Frodo and Sam don't get anywhere at all the whole movie, but the stuff with them and Gollum is so gripping and entertaining you don't really care). It does at least resolve the whole Saruman side of the Two Towers...so it's one down, and Sauron's boys to go.

 

With Reloaded, they muddied the water so much that it's impossible for Revolutions to work. In the first film we had a fairly complex plotline but at least we had a grip on some basic concepts (Neo and Morpheus= good guys, Matrix and Agents = bad guys).

 

And really, if someone did miss that little plot twist from the Architect....can you blame them? The whole speech was hard as hell to comprehend.

[Lightning Flik 0]

No, I'm pretty sure I heard the Architect say something like "99% accepted the Matrix if given a choice between it and the real world" (which we all know is shitty at this point).

 

I also kinda disagree about the 2nd film in a trilogy usually being filler or fucking things up. Look at Empire. In that movie we have:

 

1. The introduction of Yoda, and Luke's subsequent Jedi training.

 

2. Han and Leia on the run from the Empire and falling in love.

 

3. The introduction of Lando, who is a more fascinating secondary character than ANYONE in Reloaded.

 

4. Han being sent back in the casing to Jabba.

 

5. The stunning relevation that Vader is Luke's dad.

 

How is any of this filler or fucking up? The Two Towers to some extent doesn't really go anywhere (Frodo and Sam don't get anywhere at all the whole movie, but the stuff with them and Gollum is so gripping and entertaining you don't really care). It does at least resolve the whole Saruman side of the Two Towers...so it's one down, and Sauron's boys to go.

 

With Reloaded, they muddied the water so much that it's impossible for Revolutions to work. In the first film we had a fairly complex plotline but at least we had a grip on some basic concepts (Neo and Morpheus= good guys, Matrix and Agents = bad guys).

 

And really, if someone did miss that little plot twist from the Architect....can you blame them? The whole speech was hard as hell to comprehend.

*sighs*

 

My definition of movie filler for a series = while it does not bring any closure, it manages to keep the suspense and drama together, it keeps the story on pace, brings somethings to a close and tries not to back itself into any corners at all. Star Wars: Episode 5 was a good example of doing a lot of stuff right. On the flip side, Reloaded did a lot of stuff wrong.

 

Sorry, I have my own little short cuts in real life that I use normally and forget I don't online. Please forgive me.

 

And yes Two Towers didn't go anywhere in actually people moving, but the plot did. You knew the sides were being finalized for the great confrontation in the ending and it was all set up with some variables left to be decided. Sure, not AS greatly done as Episode 5, but still much better than Reloaded.

[cabbageboy 0]

Ah, ok. Makes sense. Heh, good point regarding SW Ep. 5 doing about as good of a job possible with setting up the last film, and the Matrix Reloaded not doing a good job at all.

 

Can you imagine Luke meeting Vader at the end of Empire and instead of something cool like "Luke I am your father" we get "Mr. Skywalker, you are smarter than all the rest I have encountered....99% of the universe prefers the Empire to life under the Republic," and so on.

 

After seeing Empire, I immediately want to put my tape of Jedi on so I can see what happens next (even though I obviously KNOW). After seeing TTT I feel very satisfied with the way it ended, and there's enough of a cliffhanger to leave the viewer wondering what will happen next (who is this "she" Gollum refers to? what will happen when they fight Sauron's troops?).

 

After seeing the Matrix Reloaded I honestly didn't give a shit at all about Revolutions. There was just nothing that could be considered a cliffhanger, nothing left me wanting more.

[HellSpawn 0]

Oooh, I know the surprise ending!

 

 

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

It's Jason Todd!

I heard this...

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

After the big Battle, Agent Smith speak with Neo and...Shockingly... he said... Neo... I ... Am.... Your... Father. (and dies) After that, Neo screams...Nooooooooooooooooooooo!

[Guest NCJ]

cabbageboy Posted on Oct 23 2003, 12:13 AM

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Ah, ok. Makes sense. Heh, good point regarding SW Ep. 5 doing about as good of a job possible with setting up the last film, and the Matrix Reloaded not doing a good job at all.

 

Can you imagine Luke meeting Vader at the end of Empire and instead of something cool like "Luke I am your father" we get "Mr. Skywalker, you are smarter than all the rest I have encountered....99% of the universe prefers the Empire to life under the Republic," and so on.

 

After seeing Empire, I immediately want to put my tape of Jedi on so I can see what happens next (even though I obviously KNOW). After seeing TTT I feel very satisfied with the way it ended, and there's enough of a cliffhanger to leave the viewer wondering what will happen next (who is this "she" Gollum refers to? what will happen when they fight Sauron's troops?).

 

After seeing the Matrix Reloaded I honestly didn't give a shit at all about Revolutions. There was just nothing that could be considered a cliffhanger, nothing left me wanting more. 

 

 

The problem is The Matrix is not Star Wars. Star Wars always was supposed to be a fantasy story like King Authur, you have knights, wizards, rouges, and scoundrels all in a different setting. Who's good, who's bad, and the repercussions of actions where all suppose to be clear. The Matrix was different. It was never supposed to be clear, cut and dry good vs. evil. It was supposed to confuse the hell out of you and make you think. It was supposed to make you question what is real and what isn't. While they have backed there selves in a corner with this having no way to have a happy ending, I don't think it ever was supposed to have a happy ending. In the end these movies were made as conversation peices mixed with a lot of kick ass action.

[cabbageboy 0]

Thing is though, when a film is so insanely complex that it just fries your brain thinking about it it ceases being entertaining.

[Lightning Flik 0]

The problem is The Matrix is not Star Wars.  Star Wars always was supposed to be a fantasy story like King Authur, you have knights, wizards, rouges, and scoundrels all in a different setting.  Who's good, who's bad, and the repercussions of actions where all suppose to be clear.  The Matrix was different.  It was never supposed to be clear, cut and dry good vs. evil.  It was supposed to confuse the hell out of you and make you think.  It was supposed to make you question what is real and what isn't.  While they have backed there selves in a corner with this having no way to have a happy ending, I don't think it ever was supposed to have a happy ending.  In the end these movies were made as conversation peices mixed with a lot of kick ass action.

I'M BACK~! MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH~!

 

...wait. When the fuck I leave?

 

Anywoo, we aren't comparing the movies (at least I wasn't) but comparing how both fillers (I'm going to use my damn term, whether people like it or not) do in ending itself for the conclusion of the final movie in the set.

 

Although the Matrix Reloaded isn't supposed to be a clear cut good vs. evil, it still must follow the adherent train of thought. Yes, neither are the "right" side, but still the final sides have to be chosen as it sets up the final climatic (or in the Matrix Triology's case, anti-climatic). We are not saying that it needed to be a happy go lucky movie, but I'd rather know what sides are finalized, no gapping plot holes (Reloaded has MORE than it's fair share) for a movie, and it must have an attainable conclusion that will set the stage for the finalization of the last movie. Does the ending need to be a happy one? No and usually for a filler, it never really is a satisfing ending (that's against the point of people wanting to see the next movie) and makes you want to see the last movie. With the Matrix Reloaded, I didn't see a lot of the above done up for it. And personally, if the action hadn't kicked in, I wouldn't have watched the movie at all. I was bored with it until the action got going (which was about 30minutes into the movie), and I had hoped there would be enough there to sustain my reasoning to be somewhat bored with the movie at the start.

 

As you can tell from how I feel about Reloaded, I lost that hope as I never really got it back that my reasoning was founded.

 

Revolutions will be coming to theatres here soon and so will Lord of the Rings: Return Of The King. And if I had a choice of which sequel I'd rather be more inclined to see, I'd say LotR:RotK much moreso than Revolutions.

[Ripper 0]

There is a difference between plot holes and unresolved story lines. The Matrix had self contained stories(Trinity's death, the getting to the Architect and all that led up to it) and set the ground work for Revolutions by starting brand new questions that will be answered later. I don't think you can really call something a plot hole until you know the entire plot.

[Lightning Flik 0]

There is a difference between plot holes and unresolved story lines. The Matrix had self contained stories(Trinity's death, the getting to the Architect and all that led up to it) and set the ground work for Revolutions by starting brand new questions that will be answered later. I don't think you can really call something a plot hole until you know the entire plot.

Hm... Point taken. I guess I shouldn't be using the term, plot holes so loosely. Thanks for the correction. Maybe they'll get taken up properly in Revolutions.

 

Hopefully they will. Otherwise, a lot will be left wanting with this series.

[Guest NCJ]

Anywoo, we aren't comparing the movies (at least I wasn't) but comparing how both fillers (I'm going to use my damn term, whether people like it or not) do in ending itself for the conclusion of the final movie in the set.

 

Although the Matrix Reloaded isn't supposed to be a clear cut good vs. evil, it still must follow the adherent train of thought. Yes, neither are the "right" side, but still the final sides have to be chosen as it sets up the final climatic (or in the Matrix Triology's case, anti-climatic). We are not saying that it needed to be a happy go lucky movie, but I'd rather know what sides are finalized, no gapping plot holes (Reloaded has MORE than it's fair share) for a movie, and it must have an attainable conclusion that will set the stage for the finalization of the last movie. Does the ending need to be a happy one? No and usually for a filler, it never really is a satisfing ending (that's against the point of people wanting to see the next movie) and makes you want to see the last movie. With the Matrix Reloaded, I didn't see a lot of the above done up for it. And personally, if the action hadn't kicked in, I wouldn't have watched the movie at all. I was bored with it until the action got going (which was about 30minutes into the movie), and I had hoped there would be enough there to sustain my reasoning to be somewhat bored with the movie at the start.

 

As you can tell from how I feel about Reloaded, I lost that hope as I never really got it back that my reasoning was founded.

 

Revolutions will be coming to theatres here soon and so will Lord of the Rings: Return Of The King. And if I had a choice of which sequel I'd rather be more inclined to see, I'd say LotR:RotK much moreso than Revolutions.

 

I agree with you when you about wanting to see LotR:RotK more than Revolutions, but I want to see both of them really badly. I think they both did a good job of getting people interested in seeing the next movie of the series, but in different ways.

 

I was more refering to cabbage boys comparison of what if Vader said what the architect said instead of Luke I am your father. If you think about it that statement went against everything we knew about Star Wars up to that point, and as did the revelation of the twins, but people ate it up because it was still a basic story of good vs. evil. The Matrix is entertaining because you can cut your brain off and just enjoy the action, or if you choose you can dig deeper into the story, dialog, and setting, and find alot of hidden meaning within it. I do agree with him when he says that when a movie fries your brain it is no longer entertaining, but Reloaded didn't fry my brain anymore than the first Matrix did. Like I said I don't think that the Matrix was written to sastisfy the masses, and I am sure that at the end of the movie some questions will still be left unanswered, but I think it will still be a very enjoyable action flick, but a movie that will make you think.

[Lightning Flik 0]

I agree with you when you about wanting to see LotR:RotK more than Revolutions, but I want to see both of them really badly. I think they both did a good job of getting people interested in seeing the next movie of the series, but in different ways.

 

I was more refering to cabbage boys comparison of what if Vader said what the architect said instead of Luke I am your father. If you think about it that statement went against everything we knew about Star Wars up to that point, and as did the revelation of the twins, but people ate it up because it was still a basic story of good vs. evil. The Matrix is entertaining because you can cut your brain off and just enjoy the action, or if you choose you can dig deeper into the story, dialog, and setting, and find alot of hidden meaning within it. I do agree with him when he says that when a movie fries your brain it is no longer entertaining, but Reloaded didn't fry my brain anymore than the first Matrix did. Like I said I don't think that the Matrix was written to sastisfy the masses, and I am sure that at the end of the movie some questions will still be left unanswered, but I think it will still be a very enjoyable action flick, but a movie that will make you think.

I don't mean to say that I'm not interested in seeing Revolutions, but the movie Reloaded did nothing to help me want to see the movie itself. And I agree that they did a good job in making people want to see the movies.

 

And I kinda realized that you were going for cabbagboy's comparison, but I felt the need to intercede as, even you say, it's a different way to look at it. Besides, if I didn't do that, someone else would've. I'm not saying I didn't mind being able to find a lot of deep meaning and stuff to the movie, however, it did have it's flaws and excution problems (which have been stated thoroughly in this thread).

 

Actually, I didn't find Reloaded fry my brain so much as the Matrix did. Sure a couple of things were neat and interesting, but it didn't play out as it should've (or it still might, hence why I'm willing to see Revolutions) and left some things dangling that aren't really nice things (IMO, as you say, it's not for everyone, so I may fall into that category) to leave dangling as we head into the final movie. As for the action, it's what made me stay and I think it delivered on that part, but the other side (the story) was a little... Well unsatisfying for me. Then again, as you stated, I might be one of those people who is in the part of the people who just don't like the movie. Yet, I really liked the first, so I'm just kinda thrown out there that the second one just didn't hold up.

[Tawren 0]

I don't see how you guys can say it has "philosophical/deep meaning", because it has one thing: nothing is real, and that isn't as original as they think it is.

[Guest Flyboy]

I don't see how you guys can say it has "philosophical/deep meaning"

I've been saying that for awhile, now. It's not really as hard to understand as some people make it to be.

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

I don't see how you guys can say it has "philosophical/deep meaning", because it has one thing: nothing is real, and that isn't as original as they think it is.

How much do you know about philosophy?

 

Because there's a lot more than "nothing is real". Reloaded directly addresses causality vs. free will. And there are a ton of other references as well.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Definitely. Perception and reality, as well. I found both movies to be completely brilliant, and visually astounding. Why some folks don't like it is beyond me. It's got everything, the brainy material..shoot 'em ups, car chases, fights, a love story, suspense, an interesting villian...Can't wait for the next one.

[Tawren 0]

I don't see how you guys can say it has "philosophical/deep meaning", because it has one thing: nothing is real, and that isn't as original as they think it is.

How much do you know about philosophy?

 

Because there's a lot more than "nothing is real". Reloaded directly addresses causality vs. free will. And there are a ton of other references as well.

While I don't have any kind of philosophy major or anything, I understand it enough that just because the Matrix uses some big words doesn't make it good.

 

By the way, Agent of Oblivion, I hate the Matrix movies because of the terrible acting, horrible script, no pacing, and the use of "philosophy" just to say they did it.