Tremendous ROH Rant I found...

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

So, I've spouted loads about both Wildside and ROH in the past, so I dont really feel like adding anything, Bob and Max Peter David and Michrome have said everything, but....

 

ICEBERG SUCKS.

 

Get the fuck over it.

 

I've seen his TNA stuff, so I'd agree. Of course, Dan Wilson went off on them aswell in a previous rant. The attitude of the Wildside guys seems to be "God our southern style, stuck in 1985 booking" is the best dammit, and everyone else can go fuck off" Read Jay Doring's interview with Wilson, he ignores the good points of TNA and ROH because "Iceberg wasn't booked properly"

 

And of course, insulting ROH around here is BLASPHEMY! because everything Gabe does is genius, right?

 

Well, yeah. In my case, my problem with ROH is Feinstein

 

Do I think Tom was a bit harsh? A little. Do I agree with most everything he said? Yeah. Do I think 90% of the posters here are close-minded dipshits that only like what conforms to their strict standards of what is good? Definitely.

 

We have a word for that attitude buddy

 

I apologize if this didn't make sense, but I am posting this as a favour and will most likely never post here again. Good day.

 

You'll be missed

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

Based on what has been said after Bob and I calmed everything down- count me the hell out of this place too (the folder, not the forum). I'll be here to post my columns and that's it.

 

I really want no part of this stupid-as-shit argument, on either side.

[Guest OSIcon]

People have different opinions on things. Not everyone likes to bounce on Gabe's dick and talk about how great ROH is. And of course, insulting ROH around here is BLASPHEMY! because everything Gabe does is genius, right?

 

You can dislike ROH all you want, that's fine, but he got all upset because people didn't agree with the rant he posted. Not to mention some of the statements he made were pretty ignorant. I like ROH, but if you have a criticsm of them and want to discuss it, I am all for that. I would probably even agree with some of the criticisms. He didn't seem to want to do that. When people didn't respond saying "You are completely right. ROH and its fans do suck" he seemed to flip out.

 

Do I think Tom was a bit harsh? A little. Do I agree with most everything he said? Yeah. Do I think 90% of the posters here are close-minded dipshits that only like what conforms to their strict standards of what is good? Definitely.

 

I get a fucking headache reading Bob's ROH lovefests at 411, for one. Nice to see you love the company you are COMPED TO WRITE ABOUT. Those of us that pay for the tapes feel a bit different about some of the stupid shit that is foisted about there.

 

How are Bob Barron's positive ROH reviews any different then Jay Doring, yours, and Tom's pro-Wildside reviews?

 

It's not different. You gusy are really to into Wildside. Others are really into ROH. Is either side wrong? No. Though you guys seem to think that the ROH fans are wrong for same reason I don't completely understand.

 

Not to put thoughts into anyone's head, but this really seems to be the case of people liking what isn't the "in" thing. ROH is the "in" thing, so some people completely turn themselves against it and attach themselves to something else (Wildside). It is kind of ridiculous and childish. Wildside themselves exhibits this beahviour with theirt immature rants that come off as just being jealous of the ROH product and mad that the fans didn't like their biggest star (and they have every right not to).

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

. Wildside themselves exhibits this beahviour with theirt immature rants that come off as just being jealous of the ROH product and mad that the fans didn't like their biggest star (and they have every right not to).

What would happen if ROH took a decent Wildside worker then?

 

They'd probably still complain about something

[Tim Cooke 0]

This is McGovern you are talking about.....enough said.

 

Tim

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

Responding to OSI real quick before I leave-

 

I hope my reviews don't come off as "pro-Wildside" shilling or whatnot. I like to think I do everything down the middle as I see it. My review of the last NWAW show (4th Ann) was middling, while if you go back in time to read Frontiers of Honor, that was overwhelmingly positive. I'm a fan of EVERYTHING, not just one promotion. As I said earlier, the one thing I can't stand is when people will refuse to watch another promotion and bash it indiscriminately (it happens a lot on this board), because they're so convinced that "their" fed is the best. That was the point I was trying to make.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

Isn't that a little hypocritical coming from a guy who has

 

The IWA-Mid South Ted Petty Invitatational Tournament

The greatest wrestling show in the US returns November 7th and 8th

 

in his sig

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

Nope- because last year's KICKED ASS and I want people to know about it. I promote what I like, I don't see what's wrong with that. I have ZERO connections to IWA.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

Yes but your'e calling a show THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET "the greatest wrestling show in the US"

 

People give me grief because I slag off stuff that i don't watch, but this is ridiculous

[Guest OSIcon]

I hope my reviews don't come off as "pro-Wildside" shilling or whatnot. I like to think I do everything down the middle as I see it. My review of the last NWAW show (4th Ann) was middling, while if you go back in time to read Frontiers of Honor, that was overwhelmingly positive. I'm a fan of EVERYTHING, not just one promotion. As I said earlier, the one thing I can't stand is when people will refuse to watch another promotion and bash it indiscriminately (it happens a lot on this board), because they're so convinced that "their" fed is the best. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

What I meant by "pro-Wildside" was simply that you are positive about Wildside in your reviews of their shows. There is nothing negative about that just like I don't see anything wrong with Bob Barron being positive about ROH in his reviews of their shows or anyone else being posititve about ROH or any other promotion. I was just responding to Patrick McGovern who made the comment that Barron's ROH views made him "sick" since they were positive to ROH. Anybody has the right to be positive or negative to any product, provided that they have seen enough to know what they are talking about.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

For those of you calling Bob Barron "biased", here are his star ratings for ROH: Night Of Grudges

 

CSC vs Carnage Crew 3/4*

 

Matt Stryker vs Chance Beckett ***

 

John Walters vs Aldo Montoya vs Homicide vs Chris Sabin ***3/4

 

Second City Saints vs Raven and BJ Whitmer **3/4

 

Diablo Santiago vs Nana. DUD

 

SAT vs Special K (Whipwreck/Angel Dust)3/4*

 

Paul London vs AJ Styles****3/4

 

The Group vs The Prophecy**3/4

 

 

Yes, thats right, ONE match got over ****. Yup, Bob Barron is REALLY biased

[bob_barron 0]

Okay- I'll defend my reviews-

 

Does ROH comp me? Yep

Does that affect my reviews? No- except I make sure to plug RF twice as a favour.

 

If a match sucks- I will say it sucks. If some of the booking pisses me off- I will say so.

 

I believe I said Fleisch v. Red from Final Battle was bullshit.

 

Gabe himself asked me to be 100% honest about the product.

 

It's not my fault that ROH has trouble putting on bad shows

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

Okay- I'll defend my reviews-

 

Does ROH comp me? Yep

Does that affect my reviews? No- except I make sure to plug RF twice as a favour.

 

If a match sucks- I will say it sucks. If some of the booking pisses me off- I will say so.

 

I believe I said Fleisch v. Red from Final Battle was bullshit.

 

Gabe himself asked me to be 100% honest about the product.

 

It's not my fault that ROH has trouble putting on bad shows

Hey Bob, I hope you don't think I was attacking you, or anything

[bob_barron 0]

I don't Dave. That response was for the guy who said my reviews make him sick or something.

[Nevermortal 0]

Quitting posting in this folder is a little silly just because someone disagrees with you.

[Bix 0]

For the maroon that gave the bullshit about no angles for the first few decades of the 20th century:

 

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_svinth_0700.htm

 

 

Re: Emotion and stuff: American Dragon vs Doug Williams at the 1st Boston area show in an ironman match was awesome. Just great wrestling. But why were they wrestling each other in an ironman match? What is my emotional investment in this match supposed to be outside of enjoying the great wrestling? It's fun, but pretty empty.

 

And Gabe is a hideous booker. Anything he does remotely well could be done by anyone else. The scrambles are slowly killing wrestling, along with the elitism WE ARE THE BETTER THAN THE LOWLY INDIES, THEY ALL SUCK THE JAGON OF ROH mentality they're creating.

 

If it weren't for CM Punk (a solid guy who's very talented) getting a nice teaching gig there, I'd pray to God and Jesus and Satan and Skayde and Hecate and stuff for the immediate demise of ROH.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Because they wrestled at the Road to the Title and Dragon wanted a re-match to avenge the loss. So ROH set it up as a 30 minute iron man match.

 

Sometimes simplicity is strong.

 

Tim

[Bix 0]

Because they wrestled at the Road to the Title and Dragon wanted a re-match to avenge the loss. So ROH set it up as a 30 minute iron man match.

 

Sometimes simplicity is strong.

 

Tim

And it was an Iron Man match WHY??!?!?!?!

 

And why does this test of scientific skills get me emotionally involved? They were fighting in a gimmick match for NOTHING. With no issue. So Doug won last time. Then you book a rematch. It doesn't need to be the ROH RESPECTFUL FRIENDLY EXHIBITION OF PURE WRESTLING~! version of a Texas Death Match.

[Guest Max Peter David]

Re: Emotion and stuff: American Dragon vs Doug Williams at the 1st Boston area show in an ironman match was awesome. Just great wrestling. But why were they wrestling each other in an ironman match? What is my emotional investment in this match supposed to be outside of enjoying the great wrestling? It's fun, but pretty empty.

 

Yeah, it would have been much better if Rob Feinstein would have forced Williams into the rematch on camera, before pulling a bait and switch, and sicking Prince Nana on him pre-match. Or, Dragon could rape William's girlfriend or murder his family. (Please note the sarcasm).

 

And Gabe is a hideous booker. Anything he does remotely well could be done by anyone else.

 

Please elaborate.

 

The scrambles are slowly killing wrestling

 

THEY'RE LUCHA MATCHES. ROH did not invent them. M-Pro, Toryumon, Osaka Pro, AAA, CMLL have been doing them for years.

 

along with the elitism WE ARE THE BETTER THAN THE LOWLY INDIES, THEY ALL SUCK THE JAGON OF ROH mentality they're creating.

 

That is ridiculous. they have plugged Wildside SEVERAL times. They've plugged HWA SEVERAL times. They've plugged NWATNA SEVERAL times. Hell... they've put over WWE for letting Dreamer and London appear at Death Before Dishonor.

 

If it weren't for CM Punk (a solid guy who's very talented) getting a nice teaching gig there, I'd pray to God and Jesus and Satan and Skayde and Hecate and stuff for the immediate demise of ROH.

 

That's great. Then you're stuck with The HHH show (RAW), the McMahon show (SD!), and the Jeff Jarrett show (TNA).

[Guest Max Peter David]

Because they wrestled at the Road to the Title and Dragon wanted a re-match to avenge the loss.  So ROH set it up as a 30 minute iron man match.

 

Sometimes simplicity is strong.

 

Tim

And it was an Iron Man match WHY??!?!?!?!

 

And why does this test of scientific skills get me emotionally involved? They were fighting in a gimmick match for NOTHING. With no issue. So Doug won last time. Then you book a rematch. It doesn't need to be the ROH RESPECTFUL FRIENDLY EXHIBITION OF PURE WRESTLING~! version of a Texas Death Match.

Doug proved to be a superior mat wrestler at Road to the Title, as the match was very mat based. American Dragon wanted to prove that he just had an off night, and could out wrestle Williams.

 

Watching the shows helps legitimize your opinion.

[Bix 0]

Yeah, it would have been much better if Rob Feinstein would have forced Williams into the rematch on camera, before pulling a bait and switch, and sicking Prince Nana on him pre-match. Or, Dragon could rape William's girlfriend or murder his family. (Please note the sarcasm).

 

No, it would've been better if there was A MOTHERFUCKING REASON FOR IT TO BE AN IRONMAN MATCH.

 

Re: Gabe's booking: He just books a bunch of good and/or flashy workers together. His good storylines have been putting a straightedge guy against a recovering addict and letting Corino be a pompus ass. Not rocket science.

 

The scrambles are slowly killing wrestling

 

THEY'RE LUCHA MATCHES. ROH did not invent them. M-Pro, Toryumon, Osaka Pro, AAA, CMLL have been doing them for years.

 

NO THEY'RE NOT YOU UNINFORMED, NARROWMINDED FUCKASS. Lucha is not about spots. WATCH SOME FUCKING TAPES. YOU. FUCK. ASS. El Dandy vs Negro Navarro is one of the best matches I've ever seen, it's lucha, and the biggest highspot is a clothesline. YOU. FUCK. ING. FUCK. ASS.

 

along with the elitism WE ARE THE BETTER THAN THE LOWLY INDIES, THEY ALL SUCK THE JAGON OF ROH mentality they're creating.

 

That is ridiculous. they have plugged Wildside SEVERAL times. They've plugged HWA SEVERAL times. They've plugged NWATNA SEVERAL times. Hell... they've put over WWE for letting Dreamer and London appear at Death Before Dishonor.

 

Well how are you gonna give backround info on Adam Jacobs, Jimmy Rave, Jason Cross, Slim J, and AJ Styles without mentioning where they trained. Gee, I wonder if plugging TNA had to do with getting NWA & X title matches...

 

If it weren't for CM Punk (a solid guy who's very talented) getting a nice teaching gig there, I'd pray to God and Jesus and Satan and Skayde and Hecate and stuff for the immediate demise of ROH.

 

That's great. Then you're stuck with The HHH show (RAW), the McMahon show (SD!), and the Jeff Jarrett show (TNA).

 

Because there's no wrestling in the world other than the nationally aired promotions and your precious ROH, right? YOU! ARE! SUCH! A! MO! THER! FUCK! ING! FUCK! ASS! YOU! DUMB! ASS! PIECE! OF! SHIT! FUCK! ASS! IWA-MS smokes ROH. Japan is a country full of good wrestling. Mexico has the lucha I love (where they don't just do spots and no-sell). Chikara is fun and good and doesn't take itself too seriously like SOME PEOPLE

 

Doug proved to be a superior mat wrestler at Road to the Title, as the match was very mat based. American Dragon wanted to prove that he just had an off night, and could out wrestle Williams.

 

Watching the shows helps legitimize your opinion.

 

I did watch the shows. Why did it have to be an iron man match, though? Why not a submission match or pinfalls only or no falls in the first X minutes so as to guarantee a feeling out period? And you must provide an answer other than "masturbation fodder for RF, Gabe, and some others."

[bob_barron 0]

No, it would've been better if there was A MOTHERFUCKING REASON FOR IT TO BE AN IRONMAN MATCH.

 

Because Dragon wanted to prove he was the better wrestler- and because fans love Williams and Dragon so guaranteeing you get to see them for 30 minutes will make you want to see the show.

Re: Gabe's booking: He just books a bunch of good and/or flashy workers together. His good storylines have been putting a straightedge guy against a recovering addict and letting Corino be a pompus ass. Not rocket science.

 

That's the point. ROH booking isn't rocket science- neither is any perfectly booked wrestling. You just give a reason for two guys to hate each other and hope it works. And with feuds like Punk v. Raven, Prophecy v. Low Ki and Homicide v. Corino- it has.

 

NO THEY'RE NOT YOU UNINFORMED, NARROWMINDED FUCKASS. Lucha is not about spots. WATCH SOME FUCKING TAPES. YOU. FUCK. ASS. El Dandy vs Negro Navarro is one of the best matches I've ever seen, it's lucha, and the biggest highspot is a clothesline. YOU. FUCK. ING. FUCK. ASS.

 

Calm down man. There's no reason to go crazy or start flaming people left and right. It's just wrestling.

 

Well how are you gonna give backround info on Adam Jacobs, Jimmy Rave, Jason Cross, Slim J, and AJ Styles without mentioning where they trained. Gee, I wonder if plugging TNA had to do with getting NWA & X title matches...

 

Wildside claims that they're the #1 wrestling alternative as well. What the hell is a promotion we're gonna say? WE'RE #3!!!!!!!

 

They do mention other feds a lot- On the 1st Anniversary Show they go out of their way to praise the promotions that have helped them.

 

Because there's no wrestling in the world other than the nationally aired promotions and your precious ROH, right? YOU! ARE! SUCH! A! MO! THER! FUCK! ING! FUCK! ASS! YOU! DUMB! ASS! PIECE! OF! SHIT! FUCK! ASS! IWA-MS smokes ROH. Japan is a country full of good wrestling. Mexico has the lucha I love (where they don't just do spots and no-sell). Chikara is fun and good and doesn't take itself too seriously like SOME PEOPLE

 

You do realise any point you're trying to make is being negated by your mindless flaming.

 

I did watch the shows. Why did it have to be an iron man match, though? Why not a submission match or pinfalls only or no falls in the first X minutes so as to guarantee a feeling out period? And you must provide an answer other than "masturbation fodder for RF, Gabe, and some others."

 

See above

[Guest Max Peter David]

NO THEY'RE NOT. Lucha is not about spots. WATCH SOME FUCKING TAPES. YOU. FUCK. ASS. El Dandy vs Negro Navarro is one of the best matches I've ever seen, it's lucha, and the biggest highspot is a clothesline.

 

(I'm going to refrain from childish shit.) MULTIPLE MAN Lucha matches. EX: Barely Legal '97 Teioh/Togo/Michinoku vs. Sasuke/Hamada/Yakashiji. I watch plenty of damn tapes. WCW had them all the time. The point I'm gtrying to get across is not that they're great matches. I'm trying to say don't blame ROH for scrambles, because they've been done elsewhere before.

 

Well how are you gonna give backround info on Adam Jacobs, Jimmy Rave, Jason Cross, Slim J, and AJ Styles without mentioning where they trained. Gee, I wonder if plugging TNA had to do with getting NWA & X title matches...

 

That's not what I'm talking about. ROH and CZW had a few double headers, Steve Corino put over TNA BEFORE Styles defended the X-Division title. Slim-J? They could hve done the same they did with the rest of Special K. (Brian XL, Izzy and Dixie pick up people they met at raves, and bring them here.) They never mentioned Homicide in JAPW, they put over Xavier's accomplishments without ONCE saying ECWA, etc.

 

Because there's no wrestling in the world other than the nationally aired promotions and your precious ROH, right?

 

I didn't say that. I could have gone on. CZW = Garbage wrestling, XPW = WWE with tits and barbed wire, IWA:MS = Boring brawling (mostly. I enjoy some IWA stuff).

 

IWA-MS smokes ROH.

 

 

Japan is a country full of good wrestling.

 

I know that, I would die w/out my puro.

 

I did watch the shows. Why did it have to be an iron man match, though? Why not a submission match or pinfalls only or no falls in the first X minutes so as to guarantee a feeling out period? And you must provide an answer other than "masturbation fodder for RF, Gabe, and some others."

 

Because their original match was to see who would move on to the 7/27/02 Iron Man match to crown the first champion.

[The Dames 0]

Bix, check your PM's.

 

Excessive flaming leads to a one time warning.

 

Don't do it again.

 

Dames

[Guest DonWestMark03]

CZW = Garbage wrestling,

Whoa whoa whoa whoa- I GOTTA take issue with this. How could a fed that employs/books:

 

Trent Acid

B-Boy

Jimmy Rave

Sonjay Dutt

Alex Shelley

Jimmy Jacobs

Chris Hero

Homicide

Dan Maff/Mafia

Deranged

Angel Dust

Messiah - (DAMN good wrestler when he wants to be, over in Cali)

Nick Mondo (solid non-deathmatch worker also)

Jonny Storm

The Briscoe Brothers

AJ Styles

Tony Mamaluke

Reckless Youth/Tom Carter (was gonna be a regular before his injury, I heard)

Nick Berk

 

Be mere "garbage wrestling"? I HATE that blanket term.

[Michrome 0]

CZW has some good matches, but the gory stuff they do brings down the whole promotion to me. I guess I'm just really not into it.

[The Dames 0]

CZW has some good matches, but the gory stuff they do brings down the whole promotion to me. I guess I'm just really not into it.

This is a statement that I would have to agree with.

 

Granted, I am NOT up to date with CZW at all, but I did attend Cage of Death 3. While that show was tame by CZW's "Ultraviolent" standards, I watched a CZW comp tape on the way there (NYC bus trip) and I would say that 90% of the matches shown were of the Ultraviolent variety and it was a big turn off.

 

Dames

[Guest Dynamic A]

I would be able to enjoy ROH tons more if it weren't for their announcers, and the majority of their fans.

*BINGO*

 

Those guys really need to realize that their job is to put over the action in the ring, and help the fans understand the story that the wrestlers are trying to tell. Instead they ramble on incessantly about "smarky smark" things and when they do call moves, it is usually wrong.

 

Ahh.. fond memories of Scoot Andrews hitting a "Double Underhook lift into Inverted Doctor Drop" (aka Tiger Driver )

 

Edited addition:

MPD wrote:

(I'm going to refrain from childish shit.) MULTIPLE MAN Lucha matches. EX: Barely Legal '97 Teioh/Togo/Michinoku vs. Sasuke/Hamada/Yakashiji. I watch plenty of damn tapes. WCW had them all the time. The point I'm gtrying to get across is not that they're great matches. I'm trying to say don't blame ROH for scrambles, because they've been done elsewhere before.

 

Your examples of what you believe to be "Lucha" proves Bix's point. Your point is valid about ROH not being the first federation to push mindless spots of doom wrestling, but don't point to AAA or EMLL (REAL Lucha Libre). You come off as uninformed, even if you have watched "plenty of damn tapes".

 

-DA

Edited November 3, 2003 by Dynamic A

[Guest DonWestMark03]

CZW has some good matches, but the gory stuff they do brings down the whole promotion to me.  I guess I'm just really not into it.

This is a statement that I would have to agree with.

 

Granted, I am NOT up to date with CZW at all, but I did attend Cage of Death 3. While that show was tame by CZW's "Ultraviolent" standards, I watched a CZW comp tape on the way there (NYC bus trip) and I would say that 90% of the matches shown were of the Ultraviolent variety and it was a big turn off.

 

Dames

That's true Dames- but because a lot of what they used to do has been banned by the PA State Commission, they've shifted to an almost completely wrestling-based product. At the very least, you GOTTA check out Best of the Best 3 or Uprising, which are great wrestling shows.

 

Uprising had:

B-Boy vs. Homicide

Jimmy Rave vs. Tony Mamaluke (AWESOME)

Trent Acid vs. Alex Shelley vs. Jimmy Jacobs vs. Sonjay Dutt

Angel Dust vs. Deranged

 

Great stuff

[Guest Max Peter David]

Best of the Best = , the rest.... is all ultra violent crap. Just my opinion of course, but even the Jr. Heavyweights use weapons.