What's so great about Shawn/Taker - Bad Blood 97?

[Guest Ray]

Well?

 

 

I hate it, personally.

 

Shawn's bumping is ridiculously goofy and WAY over the top.

 

Undertaker's WWF-big-man offense is terrible and boring.

 

Taker no-sells Shawn's superkick.

 

Wildly overrated match. 1997 MOTY? Horseshit! Misterio/Guerrero three weeks later smoked it. Same with Austin/Hart. I won't even mention Misawa/Kobashi...

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I can't help you.

 

I thought it was garbage.

 

Misterio/Eddy was the best match I saw that year (I only see US stuff) and Austin/Hart from Mania is my favorite match ever.

 

HBK/Taker being mentioned in the same breath as those is a sick, cruel joke.

[Tawren 0]

I love it. I feel it has a great story, that Undertaker is so much bigger and stronger than HBK that HBK needs to escape. I like how when they are fighting outside the ring Undertaker throws HBK into the cage, then tries to powerbomb him into the corner but HBK climbs up the cage. But HBK can't run forever, so he hits the cameraman and gets to escape that way.

 

Undertaker is supposed to no-sell the superkick! And in this case (unlike HBK's kip-ups, SS02 for example) it makes sense. UT is supposed to no-sell things, and in this match it works because it shows that UT is better than HBK, and that he is going to win it. He beats HBK all over the ring, then outside the cage, then back in the ring, and has him beat until Kane shows up, and that shows how HBK can only beat UT by having his demonic brother give him his own finisher.

 

I love the match. Obviously it isn't as good workrate-wise as Eddy/Rey, but storywise, excitement wise, emotional wise, it is way better. That is why, to me, it is *****.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

I love it. I feel it has a great story, that Undertaker is so much bigger and stronger than HBK that HBK needs to escape. I like how when they are fighting outside the ring Undertaker throws HBK into the cage, then tries to powerbomb him into the corner but HBK climbs up the cage. But HBK can't run forever, so he hits the cameraman and gets to escape that way.

 

Undertaker is supposed to no-sell the superkick! And in this case (unlike HBK's kip-ups, SS02 for example) it makes sense. UT is supposed to no-sell things, and in this match it works because it shows that UT is better than HBK, and that he is going to win it. He beats HBK all over the ring, then outside the cage, then back in the ring, and has him beat until Kane shows up, and that shows how HBK can only beat UT by having his demonic brother give him his own finisher.

 

I love the match. Obviously it isn't as good workrate-wise as Eddy/Rey, but storywise, excitement wise, emotional wise, it is way better. That is why, to me, it is *****.

Amen to that!

 

Everyone says Guerrero/Mysterio is so great, but personally, I don't find it ***** good. Maybe because I watched it the first time sixe years after it happend and it didn't age well in my opinion.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

I pretty much agree wtih Tawren. Match tells a perfect story(especially when taken hand in hand with the Ground Zero match) and HBK gets beat within an inch of his life. HBK runs but Taker will not let him escape until Kane does his thing and HBK uses his last ounce of strength to cover Taker. Great storytelling and some good bumping makes this match for me.

 

Don't agree with giving it ***** or MOTY though(Bret/Austin takes that) but a solid ****1/2.

[Guest Ray]

I REALLY don't see where this "excitement" is. Undertaker's offense is AWFUL. How can anyone sit through that crap?

 

The bumping wasn't "good", it was goofy and overdone.

 

Cartoonish, gimmicky crap.

[bob_barron 0]

Apparently a lot of people could sit through that crap since the match has been revered by smarks and marks alike as a classic.

 

I never got how the bumping was cartoony- the point was that Taker was really really pissed and was beating the dogpiss out of Shawn. Of course HBK is going to bump all over the place

[Guest Ray]

Apparently a lot of people could sit through that crap since the match has been revered by smarks and marks alike as a classic.

Well, I guess the world really is full of idiots then...

 

I never got how the bumping was cartoony- the point was that Taker was really really pissed and was beating the dogpiss out of Shawn. Of course HBK is going to bump all over the place

He exaggerates every damn bump. It looks ridiculous. There's a difference between getting your ass kicked, and doing goofy over-the-top bumping.

 

 

 

And there's the boring Undertaker offense...

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

See...every HBK match starts out with a basement rating of ***1/2.

 

That's the lowest it can possibly go.

 

Dude has a terrible match with Batista...***1/2

 

Dude has a good match with HHH...****+

 

It's just the way it is, and always shall be.

[Guest Ray]

Guess I'll have to increase my HBK bashing to compensate~!

[Tawren 0]

See...every HBK match starts out with a basement rating of ***1/2.

 

That's the lowest it can possibly go.

 

Dude has a terrible match with Batista...***1/2

 

Dude has a good match with HHH...****+

 

It's just the way it is, and always shall be.

OR

 

The match was good, so it got a good rating. I haven't heard anyone say his match vs Batista was ***1/2, and anyone who considers HBK/HHH from 12/29 to be ****+ is an idiot.

[Guest Indikator]

The match was quite good and delivered what it was supposed to.

I can´t see one bump from Shawn which is bad. And the Second Rope Chokeslam at the end is so good it could have happened in All Japan

[JoeDirt 0]

Hey, it's wrestling, it's all subjective. I loved the match to death, but I agree with the original poster that it's probably ****1/4-****1/2, not quite up to the Bret/Austin ***** that is probably my favorite match ever. But it tells a great story, HBK totally carries Taker, and it was a lot of fun to watch live. Sure, the Kane thing at the end is lame, but at least they had an angle back then and knew where they were going with it, and it pushed somebody new.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Simple answer is it was the first HIAC Match ever. Just like the WMX Ladder Match gets higher star ratings than most people now think it should, the HIAC does too because of the historic value.

 

I think the match had a good story, and the crowd reaction when they escaped the cell and then got on top was great. The thing that always bothered me was how quickly Shawn recovered from the table bump. Other than that, the match is enjoyable for what it is.

 

But then again, I'm not expecting Ray to like the match because it's HIAC.

 

Cartoonish, gimmicky crap.

 

Looks like you're watching the wrong match Ray, because that's what HIAC is. A gimmick match. And if you think Shawn's bumping in the match is bad, I hope you don't call yourself a Curt Hennig fan, because it's no worse than that.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

See...every HBK match starts out with a basement rating of ***1/2.

 

That's the lowest it can possibly go.

 

Dude has a terrible match with Batista...***1/2

 

Dude has a good match with HHH...****+

 

It's just the way it is, and always shall be.

Ummm what are you talking about?

 

I'm not an HBK fan and find 90% of his stuff overrated. This match in particular I find awesome.

 

Like Tawren I didn't see anyone giving either of those matches the high ratings you put.

[WrestlingDeacon 0]

Like Tawren I didn't see anyone giving either of those matches the high ratings you put.

Well, Scott Keith did, but he's a moron who likes to jerk off to old Rockers matches.

 

I can't comprehend the main arguments here as Shawn's selling and Undertaker's offense is no different than usual from them and it plays perfectly into their characters and storyline of the match. One thing I do agree with Scott Keith in is that this was the best HIAC match and I personally can't really stand to watch 'Taker vs. Foley anymore at all. I mean, that one is ten times more cartoony and over the top than this one if that's your major problem.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I like HHH/Foley better to be honest.

 

But for those of you who say you like this because of the story and emotion involved, how can you possibly say that it was better at this than Austin/Hart from WM XIII. That was the match that made Austin, and was the match that ushered in the attitude era. That was a history making match.

[Guest Askewniverse]

Undertaker is supposed to no-sell the superkick! And in this case (unlike HBK's kip-ups, SS02 for example) it makes sense. UT is supposed to no-sell things, and in this match it works because it shows that UT is better than HBK, and that he is going to win it.

I agree. Taker no-selling the superkick fit into the story of the match, and gave a reason for both wrestlers to go outside of the cell.

 

Throughout the match, Michaels was getting frustrated with the camera men, since they kept getting in his way. At one point, Michaels tells off a camera man and threatens to kick his ass. Later on, UT back bodydrops Michaels to the floor. Michaels ends up landing on a camera man. Michaels, now truly fed up with camera men, takes out his frustration by beating up the camera man that he landed on.

 

Moments later, WWF officials open the cage door so that the camera man can receive medical attention. As the medics are helping the camera man, Michaels hits the superkick on UT, who no-sells it. At that moment, Michaels knows that he's SOL. He realizes that if his big move can't put UT down, nothing else will. Michaels, knowing that he can't beat UT, takes the only alternative that he can think of, which is running away like a little bitch.

Edited January 11, 2004 by Askewniverse

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Moments later, WWF officials open the cage door so that the camera man can receive medical attention. As the medics are helping the camera man, Michaels hits the superkick on UT, who no-sells it. At that moment, Michaels knows that he's SOL. He realizes that if his big move can't put UT down, nothing else will. Michaels, knowing that he can't beat UT, takes the only alternative that he can think of, which is running away like a little bitch.

I've never understood even if my repeated viewings why Shawn didn't just run all the way to the backstage area.

 

I also loved this match(****1/2 sounds right) as the story was great. With the build up, Shawn was busy attacking Undertaker with his pals and the help of steel chairs before taking off so Taker couldn't exact any revenge. This match allowed Taker to finally get revenge while banning DX from ringside and keeping Shawn from running away. IMO, the thing that makes this match is Shawn's bumping and Undertaker just beating the shit out of him because it made you realize as a fan that this is Undertaker's chance at revenge and he's so pissed off that he'd kill this guy for what's been done over the past weeks and since there's no place to run, Shawn is exposed as the chickenshit heel that he was.

[Guest Ray]

This "Undertaker gets his revenge" thing is negated by (i) Shawn's exaggerated bumping (he doesn't look like he's getting his ass kicked...he looks like he's flopping around like a fish) and (ii) Undertaker's terrible offense (if he is so pissed off, why use such shitty offense? watch Vader hand out an ass-kicking, then watch Taker try it....'nuff said).

[Tawren 0]

So basically Ray, you don't like it because HBK oversells and because Undertaker doesn't look as angry as Vader.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Keep in mind Ray Vader weighs more and is also able to use the forearm attacks, work stiff, etc. whereas Undertaker basically relied on punches(As most normal pissed off people would) and the normal wrestling moves trying to stay true to the fact that there was still a wrestling match going on and not being able to injure HBK because at the time HBK along with Bret and Austin was one of Vince's biggest stars.

[Guest Ray]

So basically Ray, you don't like it because HBK oversells and because Undertaker doesn't look as angry as Vader.

Bingo!

[Lil' Bitch 0]

This "Undertaker gets his revenge" thing is negated by (i) Shawn's exaggerated bumping (he doesn't look like he's getting his ass kicked...he looks like he's flopping around like a fish)

 

But Shawn always has done that since 1992. Hell, I even think he was doing it since he was a Rocker.

[Guest Ray]

But he REALLLLLLLY does it in this match.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

Wow. People piss and moan when HBK no sells. Now they piss and moan when he does, and he's been selling like that since 1991!!!

 

I can't wait to hear "Mr. Perfect/Curt Hennig/Whatever sucked because he would do cart-wheels after being punched and calls it selling."

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

The match was quite good and delivered what it was supposed to.

I can´t see one bump from Shawn which is bad. And the Second Rope Chokeslam at the end is so good it could have happened in All Japan

Well, I guess. But you do realize it would have had to been faught for a hell of a lot more than it was in this match. They did it too easy.

[WrestlingDeacon 0]

Wow. People piss and moan when HBK no sells. Now they piss and moan when he does, and he's been selling like that since 1991!!!

 

I can't wait to hear "Mr. Perfect/Curt Hennig/Whatever sucked because he would do cart-wheels after being punched and calls it selling."

My favorite Hennig sell was when he would slide clear across the ring on a punch and crotch himself on the ringpost. I also enjoy anytime he would get hit, go flying, the gum would come out of his mouth and he would still have the presence of mind to swat it. Pimp.

[Tawren 0]

Wow. People piss and moan when HBK no sells. Now they piss and moan when he does, and he's been selling like that since 1991!!!

Have you read the thread? Ray is pretty much the only guy bashing it.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Wow. People piss and moan when HBK no sells. Now they piss and moan when he does, and he's been selling like that since 1991!!!

 

I can't wait to hear "Mr. Perfect/Curt Hennig/Whatever sucked because he would do cart-wheels after being punched and calls it selling."

My favorite Hennig sell was when he would slide clear across the ring on a punch and crotch himself on the ringpost. I also enjoy anytime he would get hit, go flying, the gum would come out of his mouth and he would still have the presence of mind to swat it. Pimp.

I still remember in the 2002 Rumble. Austin & HHH have Hennig over the top and he's grasping for life yet STILL finds the presence of mind to psit and swat the gum.