Guest LooneyTune Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 Meltzer hates Backlund, not Flair. Woah, he said Hogan was good? I'm amazed. Which reminds me... where is Backlund on this list? Top 100, I'm sure Backlund was a better wrestler than Michael Hayes or George friggin Welles (if thats the same one who was in WWF for WM 2)
cawthon777 Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 Meltzer loves Flair. He hates Backlund - hence the WWF Champion not even appearing in the list. lol And Looney, I swear I didn't even read your post before writing the exact same thing.
Guest LooneyTune Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 It happens... I still can't believe he put Hogan at #34 on a Top 100 Workers for 1983 list. I thought everyone hated Hogan forever.
BUTT Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 22. Andre the Giant (only as a villain in Japan, in fact he may deserve higher) Huh?
Guest LooneyTune Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 I could use the "was he well known" story, but he said about Bret Hart "unknown outside of Calgary", so my best guess is he was still green? (has no idea obviously)
MrRant Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 Remember... if he didn't see the guy, he didn't rank him. As far as Andre goes, he meant he only saw him in Japan from what I can tell.
Guest OSIcon Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 For the guy that asked about what kind of bumps Bobby Eaton could have been taking, Meltzer really wasn't talking about any big "stunt bumps" or anything. Eaton always just bumped really hard and convincingly for a wide range of offense. The bumps Eaton took that "not many others would take" are probably just referring to a lot of big bumps from the ring to the floor, taking back bumps on the outside (with not mats), ect. When you think about it, how many guys today in the WWE (or even TNA) bump really hard for a lot of different moves, take big bumps from the ring to the outside, take bumps on the unprotected floor, and so on? You can add all the big falls in the world, but when it comes down it, Bobby Eaton's bumping still looks impressive 22 years later. Interesting list. Meltzer was a much better judge of talent back then. Though it is interesting how high Hogan ranked. If you've read any Observers from after Hogan became champion, he generally despised him and wasn't shy in making that known.
JoeDirt Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 26. Ted DiBiase (if he switched styles would be in the top 10) What did he mean here?
Jingus Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 For anyone in the know, what was Meltzer's big problem with Bob Backlund? Not having the WWF World Champion (and a truly great mat wrestler) in the fucking Top 100 is pretty inexcusable. 1. Ric Flair (all-around he’s the greatest champion I’ve ever seen) What a shock. 2. Bruiser Brody (not only the best brawler but the best big athlete in the game) Bullshit. Brody was the Undertaker of the 80s: damn good when he was on, but often tended to be a lazy no-selling piece of shit. 6. Riki Choshu (great moves, never stops working, he’s got it all) Great moves?! This is a guy who uses a shitty clothesline as a finish. 26. Ted DiBiase (if he switched styles would be in the top 10) Probably referring to Ted's generic babyface style, pre-Millionare. 67. Tiger Jeet Singh (a certifiable lunatic in Japan) So "lunatic" is Meltzerese for "Yakuza-owned"? 83. Stan Lane (also was better in the pre-Fab days, but a good wrestler) How little did Dave know that Lane's best matches were all yet to come. .. what the hell bumps were they taking then? That was back when a chairshot put you on a stretcher, and a piledriver was "career threatening"? Depended greatly on the territory. Plenty of guys even back then would only semi-sell chairshots, and Harley Race had someone kick out of a piledriver in every match he ever had. I still can't believe he put Hogan at #34 on a Top 100 Workers for 1983 list. I thought everyone hated Hogan forever. Hogan actually kinda sorta tried to wrestle back then before he got locked into his Hulking Up formula. He had watchable matches with everyone from Tony Atlas to Andre.
Guest Frank_Nabbit Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 Where is Savage on the list? Wrestling for the ICW and not yet in Memphis, where he finally broke out of the outlaw promotions
Guest Frank_Nabbit Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 22. Andre the Giant (only as a villain in Japan, in fact he may deserve higher) Huh? Andre tried hard in Japan, in America he just got to no sell and squash people
Guest The Shadow Behind You Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 It happens... I still can't believe he put Hogan at #34 on a Top 100 Workers for 1983 list. I thought everyone hated Hogan forever. like most people do; You forget how good of a worker Hogan actually is. Once he got to WWF; he didn't need to work as good as he was anymore. Watch any of his japan matches and you'll see that.
Some Guy Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 Hogan was actually quite good when he wanted to be. See some of his 80s matches against Savage, Orndorf, and Piper. If he was in there with a good worker he'd try harder. I think Hogan gets an unfair bad rap because he feuded with Bundy, Studd, Andre, Zeus, Akeem, and other big fat slobs who no one could have a good match with. And he did carry the Warrior to a passable match, which I watched the other day and man, it just doesn't hold up to todays standards, but it was good for the time in WWF.
Guest Loss Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 Hogan wasn't the best of all time or anything like that, but if he was as horrible as he's often made out to be, he wouldn't have nearly the staying power he's had.
Guest Frank_Nabbit Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 26. Ted DiBiase (if he switched styles would be in the top 10) What did he mean here? Mr. Olympia (unlike DiBiase, the villain style has improved him)
Tim Cooke Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 Re: Riki Choshu "Great moves?! This is a guy who uses a shitty clothesline as a finish." Yea, because a lariat is bad Choshu was the leader in revolutionizing tag team moves with Yatsu and Animal Hamaguchi. Spiked piledriver, neckbreaker drop off second rope with someone holding up opponent, double snap suplex to name a few. Plus he was the first to do the sprint style matches, moving wrestling from 1970's mat based to the stuff we still see today. Tim
Guest LooneyTune Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 I know Hogan was pretty good (in his prime), I was just saying "Wow, I thought eveyone thought he sucked." His gimmick didn't need him to bust out anything special in terms of wrestling moves.
Tim Cooke Posted January 21, 2005 Report Posted January 21, 2005 Hogan threw out a bunch of pretty suplexes in his career, even as late as the Rock match from 3/02. Tim
Guest TheLastBoyscout Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 If by Hate you mean blindly love forever Not really blind love. He recognizes him as one of the greatest American workers ever. He was a mark for him back in the day, but other than Randy Savage, there was no one in Flair's universe as far as being the total package in the 80's.
Jingus Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 Choshu was the leader in revolutionizing tag team moves with Yatsu and Animal Hamaguchi. Spiked piledriver, neckbreaker drop off second rope with someone holding up opponent, double snap suplex to name a few. Plus he was the first to do the sprint style matches, moving wrestling from 1970's mat based to the stuff we still see today. I've only seen a handful of Choshu matches, mostly froms the 90's. Although it was nice to see any crowd as rabid as the one at his 96 G1 Climax finals match with Chono, the work itself didn't exactly set me on fire. What're some good matches he's been in? (Aside from the infamous/hilarious one where Maeda kicked him in the face.)
Guest Frank_Nabbit Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 If by Hate you mean blindly love forever Not really blind love. He recognizes him as one of the greatest American workers ever. He was a mark for him back in the day, but other than Randy Savage, there was no one in Flair's universe as far as being the total package in the 80's. Nick Bockwinkel - the look, the interview and the ***** matches (All the way up to 1987)
Guest Frank_Nabbit Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 46. Ricky Morton (vastly underrated, as good as almost anyone) This is pre Rn R Express isn't it? Don Kernodle (excellent tag wrestler, being misused at the present) He was jobbing around the WWF at this point I think? (I seem to remember Snuka beating him rather quickly on TV)
Guest Frank_Nabbit Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 Here is the Top 100 from the WON 1984 Year-End Annual 1. Ric Flair 2. Dynamite Kid 3. Bruiser Brody 4. Super Tiger (Sayama) 5. Davey Boy Smith 6. Riki Choshu 7. Butch Reed 8. Tatsumi Fujinami 9. Stan Hansen 10. Ricky Steamboat 11. Terry Gordy 12. The Cobra (George Takano) 13. Paul Orndorff 14. Adrian Adonis 15. Masa Saito 16. Bob Orton Jr 17. Dick Slater 18. Randy Savage 19. Kerry Von Erich 20. Ted DiBiase 21. Nobuhiko Takada 22. Chavo Guerrero 23. Don Kernodle 24. Akira Maeda 25. Barry Windham 26. Animal Hamaguchi 27. Harley Race 28. Kevin Von Erich 29. Tiger Mask (Misawa) 30. Yoshiaki Yatsu 31. Sgt Slaughter 32. Kuniaki Kobayashi 33. Masked Superstar 34. Roddy Piper 35. Rick Martel 36. Hercules Hernandez 37. Brian Blair 38. Jumbo Tsuruta 39. Kengo Kimura 40. Bad News Allen 41. Hulk Hogan 42. Black Tiger 43. Scott McGhee 44. El Canek 45. Magnum T.A. 46. Greg Valentine 47. Buzz Sawyer 48. Bret Hart 49. Strong Machine #2 50. Jerry Blackwell 51. Dick Murdoch 52. Terry Funk 53. Mike Rotundo 54. Iron Sheik 55. Killer Khan 56. Bobby Eaton 57. Jerry Lawler 58. Chris Adams 59. Keith Hayward 60. Gran Hamada 61. Tully Blanchard 62. Ron Starr 63. Brad Armstrong 64. Dos Caras 65. Terry Taylor 66. Lanny Poffo 67. Genichiro Tenryu 68. Yoshiaki Fujiwara 69. Buddy Rose 70. Kazuo Yamazaki 71. Jim Duggan 72. Dory Funk Jr 73. Jay Youngblood 74. Nick Bockwinkel 75. Isamu Teranishi 76. La Fiera 77. Tito Santana 78. Pirata Morgan 79. Buddy Landell 80. Pete Roberts 81. Jesse Barr 82. Billy Jack 83. Rip Oliver 84. Eric Embry 85. Jerry Stubbs 86. Ricky Morton 87. Matt Borne 88. Steve Wright 89. Tonga Kid 90. Mark Youngblood 91. Hector Guerrero 92. Michael Hayes 93. Hiro Saito 94. Perro Aguayo 95. Leo Burke 96. Arn Anderson 97. Dusty Rhodes 98. Gino Hernandez 99. Wahoo McDaniel 100. Jack Brisco
Guest Frank_Nabbit Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 And 1985's top ten: 1. RIC FLAIR (he may have slowed a bit, but he is so consistently excellent and his aura is such that when he does make a mistake, it is easily overlooked); 2. DAVEY BOY SMITH (without a doubt athletically the best superstar in the business. I would be surprised if he isn't number one within two years); 3. BRUISER BRODY (limited in many ways, but nobody gives an aura of violent realism more, and in Japan he rarely has anything but a great match); 4. BOB ORTON JR. (an extremely gifted performer but often must be held back for fear of overshadowing his opponents); 5. DYNAMITE KID (has lost some stamina with his added muscle, thus his work rate has dropped, but in many ways he's still about the best pound-for-pound); 6. TERRY GORDY (I can't say enough positive things about his ability and work rate, but he's been known to sluff off on occasions); 7. BUTCH REED (phenomenal strength and great athletic skills to go along with it, now that he's gotten to where he controls heat well, there's no stopping him); 8. CHAVO GUERRERO (almost everything he does is flawless); 9. PAUL ORNDORFF (a superior athlete and wrestler who often doesn't get to show his best because of his mostly weak WWF baby-faced opposition, but for some reason is a very boring wrestler when in Japan); 10. ADRIAN ADONIS (would be No. 1 if he was in any kind of condition to wrestle in singles, but his 300- pound current frame limits him).
Guest LooneyTune Posted January 22, 2005 Report Posted January 22, 2005 What was the first year Ric Flair WASN'T #1? Nice to see though, that Bob Orton got some recognition for being one of the better workers in the mid 80's.
deancoles Posted January 23, 2005 Report Posted January 23, 2005 Before anyone asks the readers opinion in 83 here's the history of the Subscribers votes, copied off the WON forum on Wrestling Classics.Meltzer's opinion in the 80s usually wasn't that different from the subscribers, He did disagree with the Sabu 2nd place in 94, there was a huge fear that Sabu would win until Kawada pulled through. 1980 Harley Race 1981 Ric Flair 1982 Ric Flair (2) (Runner-Up: Roddy Piper) 1983 Ric Flair (3) (Runner-Up: Hulk Hogan) 1984 Ric Flair (4) (Runner-Up: Dynamite Kid) 1985 Ric Flair (5) (Runner-Up: Riki Choshu) 1986 Ric Flair (6) (Runner-Up: Hulk Hogan) 1987 Riki Choshu (Runner-Up: Ric Flair) 1988 Akira Maeda (Runner-Up: Ric Flair) 1989 Ric Flair (7) (Runner-Up: Akira Maeda) 1990 Ric Flair (8) (Runner-Up: Jushin Liger) 1991 Jumbo Tsuruta (Runner-Up: Ric Flair) 1992 Ric Flair (9) (Runner-Up: Bret Hart) 1993 Vader (Runner-Up: Kenta Kobashi) 1994 Toshiaki Kawada (Runner-Up: Sabu) 1995 Mitsuharu Misawa (Runner-Up: Shawn Michaels) 1996 Kenta Kobashi (Runner-Up: Shawn Michaels) 1997 Mitsuharu Misawa (2) (Runner-Up: Bret Hart) 1998 Steve Austin (Runner-Up: Mitsuharu Misawa) 1999 Mitsuharu Misawa (3) (Runner-Up: Steve Austin) 2000 Triple H (Runner-Up: Toshiaki Kawada) 2001 Keiji Mutoh (Runner-Up: Steve Austin) 2002 Kurt Angle (Runner-Up: Bob Sapp) 2003 Kenta Kobashi (2) (Runner-Up: Kurt Angle)
Vern Gagne Posted January 23, 2005 Report Posted January 23, 2005 Are these rankings strictly workrate or is overall performance taken into account?
deancoles Posted January 23, 2005 Report Posted January 23, 2005 Are these rankings strictly workrate or is overall performance taken into account? It's based on Work,Box Office,influence and impact.
Guest LooneyTune Posted January 23, 2005 Report Posted January 23, 2005 In that case, Hogan being ranked #2 in 1986 makes sense, however, didn't Flair wrestle Dusty Rhodes a lot in '86? Sabu in 1994 though is odd. Sure, he made hardcore spot wrestling famous then, but other than that, I can't think of anything.
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