From RandyOrton.net about Raw match....

[Steviekick 0]

I NEVER thought a move that is more or less a rest hold should last more than a minute or so of a match. It's clear that the guy isn't going to submit and there's no chance of it ending a match. All it does for me is bring the match to a grinding halt.

 

I couldn't care less how many times he shifts or pokes someone in the eye, it's still a LOT of laying down.

That can be fixed with good commentary. But since this was Raw, well...

[Guest Anglesault]

And Benoit didn't beat Albert with the Sharpshooter at No way Out?

No Mercy.

::kicks dirt::

 

Well, they both sucked!

 

Oh, never mind.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

And I thought Benoit DID beat Atrain with the sharpshooter?

[Guest Anglesault]

And Benoit didn't beat Albert with the Sharpshooter at No way Out?

 

 

So where does Angle's heel hook and the Brock lock fit into all of this placement on the worth of submissions?

The Brock Lock looks REAL good.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by heel hook. Is that the ankle lock? Or is that the Rumble 03 Lock?

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Yes, the Rumble 03 and No Mercy 03 lock.

 

Neither are the primary means of winning for either Kurt or Brock, just like the Sharpshooter for Benoit.

 

So if the Sharpshooter is going to be compared with and likened to an Orton bodyscissors, I was curious to know if these two can be as well, and if not, why.

[Guest Anglesault]

I really don't think it's fair to compare either to a leg scissors, because a) The Brock Lock is just SUCH an awesome move and b) both are fairly quick submissions.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Then you can't compare the Sharpshooter to it either.

 

<----- Realizes you aren't the one doing it.

[Guest Anglesault]

Then you can't compare the Sharpshooter to it either.

 

<----- Realizes you aren't the one doing it.

The Sharpshooter is basically the polar opposite of the leg scissors. It's a move you can milk for three minutes.

[Guest Ghettoman]

I come from a more worker-like view point even though I'm not very generous with my *'s at all, so I can get into simpler things, but I see where that can be a point of difference.

 

And I didn't see Benoit/Rhyno, but if they worked the hold as well or better than I would of been into it. I'm bothered when a hold is just applied, and you get 3 minutes with a few facials and some foot pounding, which is typical in the WWE.

 

And there's no way you can milk the Sharpshooter midmatch for 3+ unless it's already been built up as a finisher to the audience.

[Guest Anglesault]

And there's no way you can milk the Sharpshooter midmatch for 3+ unless it's already been built up as a finisher to the audience.

It already has been. Not specifically by Benoit, but everyone that has used it.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Show me an instance, and try to remember the "aleady built as a finisher" part, because I don't want to see some Bret match from 95.

[humongous2002 0]

Ghetto you are nothing more than a troll that keeps on coming out with lame pathetic reasons to attack RVD, i don't think last monday's match was a 5* MOTY, but for an Orton match it was watchable thanks to RVD for calling the match.But like the troll that you are , you will keep on typing how much RVD sucks.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Yeah, which explains why he's been out of this thread for over a page now. Shut the fuck up.

[humongous2002 0]

Yeah tough guy hide behind your computer while you are opening your little mouth. You are a sad troll.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Orton has had 2 good matches since he has been in WWE, and they were both with RVD.

His matches with HBK were better than his matches with RVD, IMO.

ditto

[Guest Ghettoman]

And your hiding behind what? A smaller computer? Make a point, or shut the fuck up. Simple really.

[humongous2002 0]

Why don't you shut me up punk?

[Guest Ghettoman]

Because I'm not in this thread trying desperately to sound like some tough guy, I'm here to get my point across.

 

Unless you'd like to do the same, just shut the fuck up.

[humongous2002 0]

Because I'm not in this thread trying desperately to sound like some tough guy, I'm here to get my point across.

 

Unless you'd like to do the same, just shut the fuck up.

You are pathetic son,you are the one trying to talk all tough then u can't back it up, i'm not wasting my time with your sorry ass.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Yes you are, you've been doing it for 6 posts now.

 

"Why don't you try and shut me up punk" Yeah, your really not trying hard there. How should I back it up? Would you like to exchange addresses and schedule a fight at whatever fourth grade playground you currently run around in?

 

Like I said, make a point, or shut the fuck up.

[humongous2002 0]

Yes you are, you've been doing it for 6 posts now.

 

"Why don't you try and shut me up punk" Yeah, your really not trying hard there. How should I back it up? Would you like to exchange addresses and schedule a fight at whatever fourth grade playground you currently run around in?

 

Like I said, make a point, or shut the fuck up.

My point is that you are like a bitch that doesn't know when to quit.And if you are in the ny area name the place and the time, i'm itching to smack a little bitch like u around.I was going to live it alone but you still want to talk shit.

[Guest Ghettoman]

No I want you to shut the fuck up or make a point. I've made that clear numerous times already.

[humongous2002 0]

No I want you to shut the fuck up or make a point. I've made that clear numerous times already.

That's all you are going to keep on saying???You know what never mind, i made my point about you being a troll , i got better things to do than wasting my valuable time with your mindless ass, but keep on typing about you wanting me to shut up, now that's original.

[Guest Ghettoman]

What else am I gonna say but what I want you to do?

 

You have no purpose in this thread, you misconstrued what I said and took it overly offensive as if your name was Rob Van Dam. Then after I asked you many times to make a point, you decided to go ahead and try to be the tough guy you kept accusing me of being by acting as if this isn't the internet, and I will never see you in my life.

 

Get a clue. I'm hear to discuss the topic, not see who can act like the biggest douche. So like I said, shut the fuck up, or make a point.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Yes you are, you've been doing it for 6 posts now.

 

"Why don't you try and shut me up punk" Yeah, your really not trying hard there. How should I back it up? Would you like to exchange addresses and schedule a fight at whatever fourth grade playground you currently run around in?

 

Like I said, make a point, or shut the fuck up.

My point is that you are like a bitch that doesn't know when to quit.And if you are in the ny area name the place and the time, i'm itching to smack a little bitch like u around.I was going to live it alone but you still want to talk shit.

This folder really HAS gone to shit.

 

humongous...this is the internet. People aren't going to organize a fight with you and drive down to wherever you live just because you like RVD and they don't. Then again, you know that. Trying to sound big by threatening someone on a messageboard isn't going to be taken seriously by anyone.

 

Ghetto...I agree with you on the leg scissors arguement, because it was leading somewhere in that it weakened RVD incase he hit the Frog Splash. AS mentioend kayfabe terms. In kayfabe terms, wouldn't RVD be nursing his ribs from his match last week with Henry seeing as his offense is focused on the back e.g the bearhug.

 

AS...I agree with you too. Restholds shouldn't be longer than 2 or 3 minutes unless they're wearing down a bodypart for a later submission or they lead somewhere. However, I think it was leading somewhere as I said. It may have been sloppily applied (in other words, it was), but to his credit Orton put a lot of emotion into the move while it was applied...showed more signs of being a heel than many times in the past few months, had the thought to turn it into a pinfall at one point...no excuse for an overly long resthold, but it's not like he just laid there.

 

 

The blame for it not leading anywhere goes to the fact RVD didn't hit the 5 Star. I can't remember his selling after the Rolling Thunder, but if I can't remember it it may not have been too good.

 

I understand your annoyance with the resthold, but I do think your Orton hate is at times slightly over the top, and maybe that's why people pick at your opinions that seem anti-Orton.

[Guest Ghettoman]

I was expecting RVD to go for the frogplash, miss, and then have Orton win with something rib related, or at least get a really hot nearfall out of it and then work to the RKO.

 

But any time a Raw match has me talking about what I would of done or how I would of liked to see it is a plus, considering most of them would take way to long to discuss that issue, or were just so bland or annoying that you wouldn't bother.

[AndrewTS 0]

Show me an instance, and try to remember the "aleady built as a finisher" part, because I don't want to see some Bret match from 95.

The Rock, Benoit, and Lance Storm have all used it as a finisher. The first two sporadically, however. Storm has used it as a primary finisher and gotten many wins with it when he teamed with Regal though.

 

The Sting version is also very similar, although not quite applied or used in the same manner.

 

So, not the strongest examples, but it is still bought as a finisher by the fans.

[Guest Ghettoman]

No I'm saying an instance where the Sharpshooter was milked for 3 minutes mid match and wasn't previously built as a finisher.

 

If the move hadn't been built up, it wouldn't of gotten the reaction.

[AndrewTS 0]

Well, it's been built up as a finisher so there's no recent examples you can name.

 

Sting and Rock also don't really use it like a submission--it's more of a move to get a pop and isn't used after damaging the back/legs to get a submission win. I don't even recall Storm using it that way.

 

Although Flair used the Figure 4 also mid-match and would milk it for several minutes, but him and his opponent would usually be flopping around and fighting for the ropes or a reversal.

 

Still, I'm rather amused at the WWE talking about switching to a safer, more ground-based submission style, but they kill most of the submission finishers and don't really try to build up any, relying more on rest holds.

 

Although if you're saying that's what they're trying to do with the body scissors--build it up as a finisher, wouldn't they have let Randy get some wins with it before using it as a mid-match spot? If they had built it up, the fans would be rooting for RVD to bust out of the hold. Instead, the fans were just bored and hoping that the match would pick up already.

 

Although, I think the Sharpshooter actually looks like a finisher, whereas a body scissors...who could actually buy it as one?

Edited January 17, 2004 by AndrewTS

[Guest Ghettoman]

Nah, it was about AS's preference with holds, he said a move you could milk for 3 minutes, would be the Sharpshooter, and I was saying only if it's already been built up as a finisher.

 

If the leg scissors had already been built up, that spot would of had the crowd really into it, but regardless was, to me, an enjoyable working of a hold.