Matches that you don't get

[EL DANDY~! 0]

Hokuto/Kandori. You know the one. Still don't get it. And I'd like to. Yep.

RAY! I'm gonna pull a Coey or a Cooke or a Wolvie without being a dick, so listen closely.

 

If you know the backstory to this match, you'll love it even more. Basically, you got Kandori on one side, who is a legit badass, one of the toughest in the business, against Hokuto, who's the biggest risk taker in all of AJW, willing to put her body on the line, evolving to the point where she is called "The Dangerous Queen."

 

The match itself is a summation of Hokuto's career: the armbar at the beginning where she probably should have quit, the HUGE gusher that's tapped, and the tombstone on the table are all symbolic about how her career has gone to that point, where the gusher can't get a tourniquite, and where the tombstone, which Aja Kong used to break her neck 3 years earlier, are things that should generally stop her, they instead feul her.

 

From there, you got yourself one of the greatest physical displays ANYWHERE. The only match I think that might be able to rival this on a pure "I'm a monster and I'm gonna whoop that ass scale" is Hansen/Kobashi, because if you watch the offense, Hokuto ONLY gets the offense in on Kandori in spurts. She basically waits for a mistake to be made by Kandori, and then she pounces. Kandori knows that Hokuto's hurt and so she uses all the armbars and chokeholds and even goes high flying herself with her dive to the outside. The fact that 27 minutes into that match, when both women have lost a lot of bled (especially Hokuto), they do a CHAIN WRESTLING SEQUENCE leading to the Tiger Driver by Kandori is absolutely insane. Then you have the NLB sequence at the end, where Kandori could pull off the greatest win of wins by pinning Hokuto in the middle of the ring with HER move in front of HER fans, and then you have the shoot punches at the end...

 

It's one of the best 5 matches I've personally seen, ever.

[Jingus 0]

The answer to the Inoki thing is simply that he was the booker for most of New Japan's run, so he booked himself to be so dominant that even Mutoh or Dusty would've told him to lay down every once in a while. He rarely got pinned throughout his 70's run, plus he did the worked shoot crap like with Ali.

 

What I don't get: people who don't get Hansen-Kobashi. I mean, the first time I saw one of their matches (and it wasn't THE match, it was the one from Carny 94) I was blown away by the whole thing. It was my introduction to the AJPW heavyweight style, and I was lovin' it. But since then I've showed it to some friends, and, well, the reception wasn't exactly enthusiastic. It's to the point now where the combination of the words "Jingus" and "All Japan" are often used in punchlines when I'm being ribbed, because my friends just can't stand the style, think it's boring, etc etc etc. Hell, it took Jumbo/Misawa 6/8/90 to get a positive reaction out of any of them. Damn philistines.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Antonio Inoki. All the matches I've seen him in, he;s underwhelming at best. I'd much rather watch anything with Fujinami than with Inoki. Although the way he took Vader's release German is just great.

 

Can't really help you out TOO much here, but from what I understand, Inoki fought a lot of "legit" fighters back in the 70's and 80's like Muhammad Ali in some vain attempt to prove that NJPW was the strongest fighting group in the world or something like that.

I think the problem with Inoki's work(which most don't even consider a problem) is that he is too dated for current wrestling fans. He is VERY good at the ground game and grappling but is not a quick paced wrestler. This could be concieved as "boring", but I feel that it really depends on what kind of wrestling you like and don't like.

[Tim Cooke 0]

"which Aja Kong used to break her neck 3 years earlier"

 

I must have missed this.

 

Tim

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Maybe Ray should read Chris' review at Air Raid Crash.

 

Hokuto vs. Kandori review

 

Assuming he hasn't already.

[Guest Ray]

Maybe Ray should read Chris' review at Air Raid Crash.

 

Hokuto vs. Kandori review

 

Assuming he hasn't already.

I've read it, several times. Before and after watching the match. Still don't get it...

 

 

 

Can you feel the tears? ^

[Tawren 0]

Bah, fine, whatever, you win. I didn't like the match. There ya go, there is my reason. I felt they were lying around too much because that is what it seemed like while I was watching it...whatever.

That's a pretty bad cop-out. Blowing him off with the dismisive "whatever" after he went back and took notes on the match to prove you wrong is pretty lame. He hasn't been too "nice" about arguing this, but if someone makes a good argument, it's usually best to listen instead of ignoring them. How are you supposed to get anything out of a discussion if you won't listen to others's opinions, especially when they've made a good point?

Sure, he's made a good point that Ohtani has facial expressions while he lies on the mat, but when I watched the match, I didn't like it and it seemed to me like they were lying around a lot. I didn't like the match. I get the story, I get everything he is saying, I just don't like it. Yeah, it's a cop-out, but I don't like the match.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

The Hansen/Kobashi match in question that I spoke about is from 8/93. Dunno the exact date, but I'm sure Black Tiger commented on it already judging from my description.

I'm watching this a second time in order to truly "get it." Let's hope it works this time.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Sure, he's made a good point that Ohtani has facial expressions while he lies on the mat, but when I watched the match, I didn't like it and it seemed to me like they were lying around a lot. I didn't like the match. I get the story, I get everything he is saying, I just don't like it. Yeah, it's a cop-out, but I don't like the match.

No, the point was that he isn't making facial expressions while lying on the mat, it's that he's not lying on the mat. There is only one portion where he lies on the mat, and it lasts 7 seconds. That's the point. I'm sorry if you expect guys to just jump up after taking finishers, but that's not the way smart matches work.

[Tawren 0]

Sure, he's made a good point that Ohtani has facial expressions while he lies on the mat, but when I watched the match, I didn't like it and it seemed to me like they were lying around a lot. I didn't like the match. I get the story, I get everything he is saying, I just don't like it. Yeah, it's a cop-out, but I don't like the match.

No, the point was that he isn't making facial expressions while lying on the mat, it's that he's not lying on the mat. There is only one portion where he lies on the mat, and it lasts 7 seconds. That's the point. I'm sorry if you expect guys to just jump up after taking finishers, but that's not the way smart matches work.

OK, I just went back and re-watched the match. I get the story. The work is smart. No, they don't lie around as much as it seemed like the first time I watched it (which was my point, when I watched it it felt like they were just lying around a lot). But I still can't call it anything great. I understand that they don't need to get right up right away, but get this: I don't like the match. It feels like they are taking a while in between moves and I hate the ending. Again: I get the story. I don't like the match.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

OK, I just went back and re-watched the match. I get the story. The work is smart. No, they don't lie around as much as it seemed like the first time I watched it (which was my point, when I watched it it felt like they were just lying around a lot). But I still can't call it anything great. I understand that they don't need to get right up right away, but get this: I don't like the match. It feels like they are taking a while in between moves and I hate the ending. Again: I get the story. I don't like the match.

Well get this:

 

I like the match,and I would put in the top 3 greatest junior matches of all time. One of the reasons that I like the match so much, is because I like how they take the time to put over each other's offense, which is something you rarely see in go-go junior matches, or most matches period.

 

I think the ending is an excellent way to cap off the story. If you don't like the match, than it's your loss.

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

Ozaki vs. Kansai JWP 95

 

I've only watched this once, but there was a lot I didn't really pick up on due to my lack of knowledge on the history of the match or JWP in general. Still found it to be a heap of fun though.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

OK, I just went back and re-watched the match. I get the story. The work is smart. No, they don't lie around as much as it seemed like the first time I watched it (which was my point, when I watched it it felt like they were just lying around a lot). But I still can't call it anything great. I understand that they don't need to get right up right away, but get this: I don't like the match. It feels like they are taking a while in between moves and I hate the ending. Again: I get the story. I don't like the match.

Well get this:

 

I like the match,and I would put in the top 3 greatest junior matches of all time. One of the reasons that I like the match so much, is because I like how they take the time to put over each other's offense, which is something you rarely see in go-go junior matches, or most matches period.

 

I think the ending is an excellent way to cap off the story. If you don't like the match, than it's your loss.

I like the match very much as well. I thought it was worked well and is a great example of what a great jr. match really is.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

So I rewatched Hansen/Kobashi from 8/93, and I dig it. Not as great as it seems some of you here think it is, but that little lesson in the backstory did help my enjoyment of it.

 

Although, honestly, I'm more a fan of the junior work, so that could definitely be why I wasn't feeling it originally.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

So I rewatched Hansen/Kobashi from 8/93, and I dig it. Not as great as it seems some of you here think it is, but that little lesson in the backstory did help my enjoyment of it.

 

Although, honestly, I'm more a fan of the junior work, so that could definitely be why I wasn't feeling it originally.

Laz, it seems as that is where most puro fans start out. Most then get into the AJ 90's stuff, but some never do. But it's strange how mostly EVERYONE gets into PURO through the Jr. stuff though.

[Guest NoMercy]

A match I really enjoy, and this is one of the best matches I've ever seen is Kenta Kobashi Vs Jun Akiyama NOAH 23.12.00 although I'm not very familiar with a lot of angles, gimmicks, backstories, etc. I was wondering if anybody could just add a little bit of light onto an already incredible match for me. Just any kind of information on the backstory and stuff. I did notice a lot of the pacing, the working of the neck and arms, the placement and tease of each finishers, etc. But I'd like to hear anything more about this match.

[Guest Black Tiger]

The story isn't really that groundbreaking. Starting in 2000 in AJPW Kobashi and Akiyama were a tag team called "The Burning" the problem was that Akiyama would keep getting beat in big matches and Kobashi would always beat whoever Akiyama couldn't get by. and then Kobashi winning the Triple Crown somewhat over shadowed Akiyama getting his first win over Misawa. That was the end of the team, but just to rub salt in the wound, Akiyama lost to Takao Omori in the first round of the 2000 Champions Carnival, and Kobashi won the Carnival defeating OMORI in the finals.

 

NOAH started and Akiyama and Kobashi teamed up against Misawa and Taue in a 2/3 falls match. Akiyama won the first fall over Misawa, then the second over Taue, and turned on Kobashi afterwards just for the hell of it. On the second show Akiyama beat Kobashi to try to solidy himself as the top guy. The idea is that Kobashi wants to show that he's still worthy of being top dog.

[Guest Black Tiger]

This is a match that got me a lot of heat for not liking:

 

Toshiaki Kawada vs Kenta Kobashi (6/12/98)

 

Coffin Surfer and I had a long e-mail chat about this match a long time back and I wished that I'd saved them. I can understand the big deal is that it's Kobashi's first ever singles win over Kawada, but every time I see the match I like it less and less. If anyone would care to help me out with any previous match psych, storytelling or just subtleness I'm not getting (I'll freely admit I don't always catch them) then I'd love to hear it.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Well, it's his first major singles win over Kawada anyway. Kobashi beat Kawada in the 98 Carnies, and from my understanding it was made to look like a fluke with Kobashi absorbing a High Kick to plow forward and hit the Burning Lariat for the flash pin(I can't remember where I heard that, so take it with a grain of salt or something). They redo the spot at 6/98 for a hot near fall.

 

I for one find the match more and more intresting every time I watch it, they(as in mostly Kawada) do some many little smart things throughout the match, I didn't pick up on most of them on my initial viewing.

 

Sure, I have no idea what the hell is going on with that weird mat work spot at the beginning(maybe it's Kawada fucking with a crowd that's conditioned for super hot openings?), but once Kobashi starts working the headlock it's all gold.

 

As I done went over in the email, Kawada's selling of the headlock is brilliant. Everytime he gets out of the damn thing, he's too worn down to do go to toe to toe with Kobashi, and ends up getting his ass kicked. Kobashi brings all his underdog determination spots to the table, as he continously plows forward in hopes of overwhelming Kawada.

 

Kawada on the other hand, does his best to hold his ground, but he just can't stop the big Orange wearing bastard from coming. The Lariats at the end is one of the finest jobs of capping off a story I've ever seen as he runs through Kawada's defenses. Forget no selling head drops, this is what fighting spirit is all about. One of my favorite matches of all time, and truth be told, I would rank it just as high as 1/97.

[Guest Black Tiger]

I for one find the match more and more intresting every time I watch it, they(as in mostly Kawada) do some many little smart things throughout the match, I didn't pick up on most of them on my initial viewing.

Could you elaborate a little more? What exactly were some of the smart things Kawada does?

 

I was initially bored at Kawada vs Albright from '95 until after I read Chris' review of it and got a better understanding of how Albright operated in UWFi (part of my motivation for asking the question here). After a re-watch of it I can understand how smart Kawada worked and I can appreciate the match so much more. With all the pimping I've heard for this match, from Chris, JDW, youself Coffin Surfer, I'd love to "get" what the big deal is

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Could you elaborate a little more? What exactly were some of the smart things Kawada does?

I've done told you about how he puts over the headlocks. Following the headlocks, Kawada loses the battle of will strike exchanges, because he doesn't have enough gas to go to toe to toe with Kobashi after being in the headlocks for so long.

 

Kawada's fantastic selling such as his collapse after the knee to the gut, and the chops to his neck.

 

Or how almost everything they do reinforces the theme of the match. Kawada's dominant "putting the breaks on" transitions(such as refusing to be whipped, suplexed, or cutting off the DDT) to stop Kobashi's runs, compared to Kobashi's determination spots to take back over such as diving back into the ring after being knocked out, pushing forward while Kawada tries to hold him off with kicks..etc.

 

Kawada's use of the Juji-Gatame at a time in the match where it would be bought as the finish...etc.

[Tawren 0]

I re-watched Ohtani/Liger today...still don't find it as good as Coffin Surfer was saying. Still hate the finish. I was wrong about how long they were taking on the mat, although the pace of the match is a little too slow for me. ***1/2, ***3/4.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

Could you elaborate a little more? What exactly were some of the smart things Kawada does?

I've done told you about how he puts over the headlocks. Following the headlocks, Kawada loses the battle of will strike exchanges, because he doesn't have enough gas to go to toe to toe with Kobashi after being in the headlocks for so long.

 

Kawada's fantastic selling such as his collapse after the knee to the gut, and the chops to his neck.

 

Or how almost everything they do reinforces the theme of the match. Kawada's dominant "putting the breaks on" transitions(such as refusing to be whipped, suplexed, or cutting off the DDT) to stop Kobashi's runs, compared to Kobashi's determination spots to take back over such as diving back into the ring after being knocked out, pushing forward while Kawada tries to hold him off with kicks..etc.

 

Kawada's use of the Juji-Gatame at a time in the match where it would be bought as the finish...etc.

I love the "collapse" that he does, I find that one of the more interesting sells that he does. I ALWAYS (for the most part) love his work.

[Guest Cover of Darkness]

I didn't get how the ladder could win the DDT title. That was just kooky.

[Guest Just Too Uber]

I didn't get how the ladder could win the DDT title. That was just kooky.

Well, the title it won was defended like the old WWF Hardcore belt, and the ladder just happened to be at the right place at the right time to fall on the champion and for a ref to count the pinfall.

 

God I love DDT.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I didn't get how the ladder could win the DDT title. That was just kooky.

Well, the title it won was defended like the old WWF Hardcore belt, and the ladder just happened to be at the right place at the right time to fall on the champion and for a ref to count the pinfall.

 

God I love DDT.

The retirement ceremony was genius.