State of Wrestler "X" Address:

[Guest Coffey]

Over at my forums I started what I hope to make a common trend. The link to the article is here, but I'm going to copy it over here anyway. Hopefully all the feedback I get from here won't be too negative. I know how a lot of people around here are. That being said, here is the post:

 

Regardless of participation, I plan on doing one of these every few days or so. Basically, I'm just going to analyze a certain wrestler, and hopefully it will lead to some conversation. If not, well, maybe some people will get a kick out of what I think about certain people. I plan on talking about anything I can think of that relates to being important as it pertains to said individual. How have they progressed? What have they improved on? Things like that.

 

That being said, the first wrestler I want to look at is Randy Orton. He has been the victim of a lot of harsh internet critism, and I want to put into words how I see things. Hopefully some other people will follow suit, and then we can compare and contrast thoughts.

 

When Randy Orton first showed up on WWE TV, out of OVW, he was cannon fodder for established wrestlers on Velocity. He had a decent look, and appeared to have a big future in front of him. He then switched to the Raw brand and began getting a slight push. It was thwarted when he injured himself. What seems like it should've been a negative setback, turned out to be a blessing in disguise. Had Randy Orton not injured himself, the "RNN" skits would've never seen the light of day. They helped get Randy Orton somewhat over, give him a little bit of heel heat, and it helped provide some much needed comedic relief during some slower Raw episodes. More importantly, it gave him the much needed exposure that he required to set himself away from the rest of the "vanilla jobbers."

 

Fast forward a few months, and Randy Orton returns from injury and joins Evolution. I left out a pretty big time gap there, however I want to get to this point now. I think this was the first mistake in Randy Orton's WWE run. At least the first mistake that he wasn't responsible for. Being a part of Evolution thrust him not only into Ric Flair's shadow, but Triple H's as well. It did, however, get him more television exposure. It made him out to look like more of a threat because of whom he was associated with. He also obtained "strength in numbers" by default. All of a sudden, wrestlers that should've been way out of Orton's league were capable of being defeated by Orton simply because you would think that he could get help from Evolution at any moment. The "Legend Killer" gimmick was adopted, and thus the downward spiral began.

 

The "Fabulous" Moolah, Sgt. Slaughter, Scott Steiner & Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban are a few examples of people whom have fallen victim to the "RKO." A Diamond Cutter variation that Randy Orton adopted with his new found gimmick. Left behind was both the "Overdrive" and Flying Crossbody ala Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat. At least now it appears as if Randy Orton had adopted not only a finisher that seems more credible, but one he could, hopefully, not injure himself applying. He did manage to miss the move completely during an episode of Raw when trying to hit Chris Jericho with it. He's still young and learning, so obviously mistakes are going to happen. That was a pretty big mistake though. I don't know if it was 100% Orton's fault, but it sure did make him look silly messing something like that up on live television.

 

So, at this point, Randy Orton was a semi-established wrestler with connections whom also had a finisher capable of getting him victories. Logically the next step in progression would be to give him a good feud. He had already captured Intercontinental Heavyweight gold from an unmotivated Rob Van Dam at the Armageddon PPV. So, whom does he begin a feud with? Mick Foley.

 

Thus far, I have to say, that this was the second big mistake made by WWE. Mick Foley was supposed to be retired. The last time people saw Foley, he was the Comissioner and just goofed around in the back. Now, all of a sudden, we're supposed to take him seriously because WWE needs to get Randy Orton over? Randy Orton is the Intercontinental Heavyweight champion. He's a hungry, young, up-and-comer. He's a member of an elite group in Evolution. Mick Foley is a fat, out of shape, twice retired veteran. He's been repeatedly thwarted by not only Randy Orton, but Evolution as a whole. Where does this lead? Mick Foley, obviouly, gains nothing from a victory over Orton. It's not like Foley is going to be the IC champion. Orton isn't getting anything from this feud either. His heat, for the lack of a better term, it lackluster. The fans don't seem to care. Why should they? Randy Orton should beat Mick Foley. Not only that, but Foley is making himself look like a fool. He repeatedly walks into ambushes. He won't back down. What should make him look brave, is making him out to look like an imbecile.

 

So where is it all going? A lot of people, with the inclusion of Batista into the feud, feel that it's leading to a tag team match between The Rock & Mick Foley Vs. Batista & Randy Orton at Wrestlemania XX. How does that help anyone? Sure, The Rock is a big name in the industry, argueably the biggest name. However, he's been gone for months. He shows up for a show, maybe two, and then disappears again. How much longer are the fans going to care about him before they feel he is a traitor? Second of all, why is the Intercontinental Championship not going to be decided on the biggest show WWE has put on in at least ten years? Shouldn't that belt matter? Doesn't the history of the belt come into the equation? The lineage? The once prestigious Intercontinental Heavyweight Title is now nothing more than a glorified trinket.

 

So, there are two possible scenarios for Wrestlemania if that match happens. The first is that Orton & Batista win. It's a tag team match with two single competitors slapped together on each side of the ring. Why would a victory matter? To show that Batista & Orton are to be taken seriously? To show that Batista & Orton can defeat a wrestler with ring rust and a wrestler who's semi-retired? On the other side of the spectrum, what if The Rock & Foley win? Does it show that Batista & Orton can only take Foley if they have the number advantage? Does it show that Batista & Orton aren't good enough to beat two established veterans despite their current setbacks? Does Mick Foley get his pride back?

 

What is will do is make the fans happy. They will get to see The Rock. They will get to see Mick Foley. They will get to see them both win. Not only that, but they will get to see Randy Orton lose. All of these things together should make the fans happy. But to answer the last question in the previous paragraph, will it give Foley his pride back? Of course not. He needs the Rock's help to accomplish a goal that he couldn't do by himself. So, what does that mean? It means that Foley still has unfinished business with Randy Orton. Of course, that will probably lead to a one-on-one match between Randy Orton & Mick Foley at WWE Backlash. Foley can't win that match or this entire feud was pointless. The goal is to give Randy Orton the "rub." The problem? It eliminates not only Randy Orton from singles competition for four months, but it also removes the Intercontinental title from the equation as well. The Orton/Foley feud will be a quarter of the year long and accomplish basically nothing. Orton accomplished more with his title victory over RVD at Armageddon. At least he got something to show for it. I suppose the outright purpose is to prove to the audience that Randy Orton is a big time player that can compete with main eventers. However, that brings another question to the table. Is Randy Orton getting too much too soon?

 

Arguements could be made for both sides of the question. Some would argue that he's obviously received too much too soon. He'll be in a high profile Wrestlemania match. He's already the Intercontinental Champion. He gets too much television time. Of course, the naysayers said the same thing about Brock Lesnar. Which, to a point, was true. However, look at Brock now. He's one of the best things the Smackdown! brand has going for it. Brock never even held the Intercontinental title. I don't recall seeing Brock on Velocity or Heat. He also started his reign of dominance by taking out the lower midcard guys....much like Goldberg did in WCW.

 

Personally, I think Randy Orton is right about where he should be. Of course, it could've been executed better getting him to this point. Randy Orton did a good job trying to make the Intercontinental title seem important before winning it. I think WWE should've capitalized on that. They could've tried to re-establish that belt and make it mean something again. Instead, the title doesn't even fit into what Orton is currently doing. A re-incorporated ranking system to determine number one contenders to Ortons title could go a long way. It could help other superstars too, like The Hurricane, Lance Storm or Val Venis. Hell, I think every division should do that. Of course, that's just wishful thinking on my part.

 

In conclusion, Randy Orton has a bright future ahead of him. He has had some decent moments thus far into his career. He's still young, and has a lot to learn, but he seems willing. Wrestling is in his blood. Afterall, much like The Rock, he is a third generation superstar. As long as WWE doesn't try to catch lightning in a bottle, and they let Orton develop on his own, they should be OK. If he moves from this Foley feud into another feud that throws Orton down our throats, they will most definitely be heading in the wrong direction. Orton has a good look. His moveset is improving. He seems to be getting more comfortably when cutting promos. He just needs more time. Raw matches and storylines blowing off at PPVs is the best way to do that. Hopefully his storylines in the future will have more of a point to them. Hopefully his title will finally find a challenger. I have no problem watching Randy Orton right now. I have no problem watching him develop into a better wrestler. I enjoy watching wrestlers climb the rungs on the ladder of success. It does, however, get frustrating when a wrestler is skipping two or three rungs at a time so that WWE has another money-maker. You can't just up and create a successful wrestler. The crowd has to take to them on their own. Randy Orton, to me, has a very bright future. Barring injury, I don't see any reason why he can't go straight to the top. Of course, the road should be rocky and lengthy. I don't want to see Orton turn on Triple H & Evolution right after Backlash setting up a feud between him and Hunter for the World's Title. Just take it easy, and give him more time to develop his character and skills. Hopefully, that will lead to the fans taking a bigger interest in him as well.

 

Also, if anyone has any suggestions for the next wrestler to write about, I'll take those too. I'd like to make this thread more than just a "good/bad read, +1 post count" thread...if you know what I mean.

 

Maybe we can get a good point/counter-point discussion out of this post.

[CanadianChick 0]

Just want to add something:

 

Another mistake I feel WWE made was not capitalize on his victories. After Randy defeated Micheals, was it ever mentioned? How about after he beat RVD? To get heat, he could have rubbed it in that he beat two of the most over faces, even if the heat is cheap. And let's face it, cheap heat is better than no heat.

[Guest Anglesault]

A couple of points.

 

People like to just blindly declare Orton to be the next Brock or Rock because he is going through similar growing pains that they did. Basically, people say that because Brock and Rock got over and talented, Orton is destined to. I've never understood this mindset.

 

Also, how could you possibly say that someone that gets that non reaction every week is "right where he should be"?

 

And all I ever hear about him is we have to "give him time" How the fuck much time do we have to give him? I'd say May to March of SOLID pushing is a LOT of time. How much more do we need to give him? Is there a time frame?

[Guest Coffey]

Well, look how long it took someone like HBK, Bret Hart or Steve Austin. It takes a LONG time. Rock & Brock were pretty much flukes.

[Guest Choken One]

Austin pretty much was over INSTANTLY once they figured out the Austin 3:16 gimmick was quite effective...yeah he spent a few months in 1996 in the mid-card but he wasn't really getting pushed anyways...

 

Hart was a Lifelong tag teamer and by the time he got that singles push in 1991, The fans loved him.

 

HBK, Yeah it took about a year to become a SOLID heel but he wasn't really pushed until late 1992 anyways and as soon as that happened, he was really over.

 

Orton has been pushed HARD since May and went over some BIG TIME names, been linked with the #1 heel, beat down one of the all time most over stars in wrestling and can hardly get a reaction.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Also, how could you possibly say that someone that gets that non reaction every week is "right where he should be"?

 

Have you watched RAW the last two weeks? He even got heat against Val Venis last week. Mind you, those have been particularly lively crowds, as I recall.

 

People like to just blindly declare Orton to be the next Brock or Rock because he is going through similar growing pains that they did. Basically, people say that because Brock and Rock got over and talented, Orton is destined to. I've never understood this mindset.

 

Agreed. It's the same with John Cena. Sure, Cena is over (not THAT over), but he still has show little in the Ring and yet he is somehow gonna be the next megastar/mainstream crossover. It was the same with Kurt Angle in like '99, where people were calling him the next Flair, and saying "In a couple of years, he'll be the best ever". People just go way overboard. As sad as it sounds, some people still buy into the WWE's hype.

[Guest JMA]

Orton should've kept doing the RNN skits and remained a midcard heel. I would've pushed him similar to how Jericho was during his WCW heel run. Of course, Orton doesn't have one-tenth of Jericho's ability or charisma but that's beside the point. I feel it would've been the right way to go.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I'll say it. I don't mind Randy Orton as a wrestler or a speaker. The problem with Orton is that he has been given way too much, way too soon, and the fans are spitting it back. He is hyped and pushed so much that the backlash against him is equally hard. Putting him over Foley or Rock is absolutely the worst thing they can do for the poor kid. The fans in New York will completely shit all over it.

[Brett Favre 0]

It's the same with John Cena. Sure, Cena is over (not THAT over), but he still has show little in the Ring and yet he is somehow gonna be the next megastar/mainstream crossover.

 

John Cena IS That Over. Have you been watching Smackdown!? Anyway, Randy Orton will never get over under the shadows of Ric Flair and HHH. Rock got over because no one like that was overshadowing him, same goes for Brock Lesnar.

[Guest Choken One]

Cena is INSANELY over. Orton isn't getting ANYTHING.

[jester 0]

Pretty thoughtful article. The only thing I strongly disagree with is Orton being "right where he should be."

 

Never mind the ring skills or promo ability (don't wanna get into that debate), I really don't think WWE has given me a reason to care about Orton. They have given him about half a gimmick, and generously allow him to beat on HHH's leftovers...with help. Whoopee fuck.

 

Seriously, I think the way HHH has been booked has prevented everyone else from getting over, heel or face.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

I don't hate Orton much ever since they scrapped those Orton / HHH WM plans (Whew). The problem is WWE is trying make him be taken seriously by fans with his Legend Killer shtick, but it doesn't help much if he can't beat people like Shawn Michaels clean. Granted, RVD did his best to make Randy look good, but other than that, people will best remember Randy for RKOing Moolah and kicking Mick Foley down the stairs.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Orton is pretty much one of the big reasons to watch Raw anymore, along with Benoit and the occasional "Flair acting like Ric Flair" promo.

 

People like AngleSault don't like him because his push hasn't resulted in a lot of good business sense. But when you get over that, he's still kind of entertaining compared to what else is being put on TV.

 

If I like it, it doesn't matter if the rest of the building is sitting on their hands.

[Guest Coffey]

I should explain myself about the "right where he should be" line. I meant his card position. He's a midcarder. Maybe an upper midcarder. As long as he's been there, it's a good thing that he's not a main eventer. Since he's getting pushed, it's a good thing that he's not a jobber or a lower midcarder.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I'm not talking about right where he should be as it pertains to overness, talent, etc.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Another fun WWE fact: Randy Orton killed the legend of Bob Holly upon his debut.

[Guest Ray]

Cena is INSANELY over.

Oh he is not. Stop exaggerating.

 

Austin in 98-99 was "INSANELY" over.

 

Rock in 2000 was "INSANELY" over.

 

Cena in 2004 is nowhere near that level.

 

Orton isn't getting ANYTHING.

Stop exaggerating, again. I heard loud boos on Raw.

[Austin3164life 0]

Cena is getting Austin-spring 1997 pops. He is VERY over, but not INSANELY over. Smackdown crowds are starting to wear Cena's white shirts and wear his "bullhorn" hands (I see them everywhere), but I think both Cena and Orton are getting a bit too much (especially Orton) too soon, and it'll hurt everyone in the long run. Cena doesn't deserve a DVD yet, seeing as how he's had about two very good matches (vs. Benoit, vs. Angle), one decent one (vs. Undertaker), and that's it. I was liking Cena's slow-burn push in the summer-fall, where he was a heel and cutting killer promos on the top faces (and getting pops). I feel bad for Orton because it seems that he puts a lot of effort into what he does.

[Toxxic 0]

Hmm... well, Orton annoys me. He's getting pushed down our throats for no good reason, the fact that he is champion is killing the IC Title because he's not doing anything with it and for all the fact that he has been improving in the ring he's still not worthy of his place on the card by a LONG shot. But then again, nor was Hogan. Orton on the mic is... painful. The trouble is that he has to spend so much effort on making sure the words come out in the right order ("I'm going to start what I finished", anyone?) that he has virtually no emotion. It's like watching someone read a slightly slow autocue, plus the fact that he sounds like he has a mouth full of mush.

 

I CAN see a future for Orton, but not to Brock/Rock levels. The guy strikes me more as a Jericho, but for the opposite reasons. Jericho never quite gets to the top through various things, not least appalling booking, and as a result always comes across as too good for the IC belt (especially the piece of shit they have now) but not quite at World Title level. However, Jericho's ability and charisma means that the office can't ignore him completely, and his fan reaction boosts him. Orton on the other hand will probably get to that sort of level not through his ability or charisma, which I can't forsee ever ranging that high, but through politics, who he knows and the undeniable fact that for all his faults he obviously tries hard. Convinced that he SHOULD be over, the office will push him as such and ignore the fact that he most probably never will be. I can certainly forsee any PPV with an Orton world title match on bombing disastrously.

[Guest Anglesault]

Orton isn't getting ANYTHING.

Stop exaggerating, again. I heard loud boos on Raw.

I think Orton has gotten to the point where people hear what they want to hear.

 

If people want him to remain a failure, they hear nothing, and if they want him to become a star, he gets more boos than Angle AND HHH combined.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

I don't want the guy to fail, but the truth is he doesn't get much heat at all. Especially compared to what he should be getting for someone in his position.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

If (When) Rock comes back he's going to bring so much attention on himself and away from the Orton/Foley feud just because of who and how he is. That's why I'm not digging the idea of a tag match at Mania. It's obvious that Foley will be taking the beatings during the match while the crowd chants "Rocky" and gets a huge pop for the hot tag. The ending will probably be a Rock Bottom or People's Elbow on Batista for the pin while Foley has the symbolic revenge of Mr. Socko on Orton. That's not the way to settle a 'blood feud' which is what WWE wants the fans to think this is.

 

It seems that no one knows what they really want to do with Orton. The 'Legend Killer' name was made when he was going up against Shawn Michaels, but Michaels certainly hasn't been killed - he's an even more prominent figure on RAW than Orton. Orton got two cheap wins against him, and HBK was given both wins back. I could see what they want with Foley, but the Rock's upcoming intervention makes little sense given the context. RKO'ing people who are already retired or who are not wrestlers doesn't count as 'killing legends'. Remember Mark Cuban at the Survivor Series? NO mainstream attention followed that.

 

Maybe if a John Cena didn't exist I could appreciate Orton more, but knowing that Cena has been given less and produced more sullies my view of Orton. I just don't see myself spending money to watch his ass get kicked which seems to be the main justification of his push. I have already pre-ordered the Cena DVD. See the difference?

[Guest Besus]

Also, how could you possibly say that someone that gets that non reaction every week is "right where he should be"?

 

The past 3 Raws he got reactions.

 

Every week people are denying his heat cause they dislike him.

 

Every week members like Mixx,Angle,MIGHTY,BBCW and Hum

deny his reactions cause they dislike him.

 

They post "haha no reaction" when he is getting loud boos

and thumbs down.

 

The no reaction posts has gotten so old that people post it

when he does get reactions.

And all I ever hear about him is we have to "give him time" How the fuck much time do we have to give him?

 

No more time cause he gets heat now but you don't like him so you going to continue to deny his reactions.

 

I'd say May to March of SOLID pushing is a LOT of time.

 

He didn't get pushed in May cause he was injured.

 

He didn't get pushed in June cause he was watching HHH

cut his promos and he returned in June.

 

He didn't get pushed in July cause he was watching HHH cut his promos.

 

How was he getting pushed when he was walking to the ring with HHH and Flair smiling and clapping?

 

August is when the push begun.

 

 

Orton has been pushed HARD since May

 

Since September.

 

September is when he came out with no Flair.

September is when he cut promos.

September is when he def HBK.

September is when he started to get more air time.

September is when he got a gimmick.

 

and went over some BIG TIME names

 

and he lost to some BIG TIME names.(Goldberg,Booker T)

 

The only big name he went over in September-November was

HBK.

 

Then in December RVD.

been linked with the #1 heel

 

Holding HHH opponents is suppose to get him over?

 

Walking out with HHH is suppose to get him over?

beat down one of the all time most over stars in wrestling and can hardly get a reaction.

 

He got a loud reaction for like 10 minutes.

 

I wish people would stop denying his reactions.

 

Orton isn't getting ANYTHING.

 

You not liking Orton doesn't mean he gets NOTHING.

[Guest Anglesault]

Also, how could you possibly say that someone that gets that non reaction every week is "right where he should be"?

 

The past 3 Raws he got reactions.

Three weeks ago, no.

 

The beatdown got something, and then he came out to NOTHING for his match.

 

Two weeks ago, I'll give you. It was going well until the beatdown got REALLY boring. But he had a bit of a reacton for the first part though.

 

I didn't watch Raw last week, and I've heard conflicting reports. (Nothing and earth shaking boos)

 

He didn't get pushed in May cause he was injured.

 

He came back at the end of May and beat up HBK and Nash, but I'll let you have it.

 

 

He didn't get pushed in June cause he was watching HHH

cut his promos and he returned in June.

 

He didn't get pushed in July cause he was watching HHH cut his promos.

 

How was he getting pushed when he was walking to the ring with HHH and Flair smiling and clapping?

 

August is when the push begun.

 

He started costing HBK (The top face) matches in June.

 

Holding HHH opponents is suppose to get him over?

 

Worked fo rocky in the Nation. Orton IS the next and better Rock, isn't e?

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I didn't watch Raw last week, and I've heard conflicting reports. (Nothing and earth shaking boos)

 

I dunno who told you he got nothing but he/she was bullshitting.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

He got a modest reaction. Not complete silence, but not even close to a deafening reaction. I saw people booing, and doing the "thumbs down" gesture, but they were definitely in the minority. Nowhere close to the reaction he should be getting.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Last week on RAW Orton got perfectly acceptable heat, and alot of heat for doing the "Bang! Bang!" thing. Considering he was facing Val Venis, I'd say it's definately progress.

[Guest Anglesault]

Last week on RAW Orton got perfectly acceptable heat, and alot of heat for doing the "Bang! Bang!" thing. Considering he was facing Val Venis, I'd say it's definately progress.

Forget the match for a minute.

 

What did he get for his entrance?

[Guest Wildbomb 4:20]

Just to piss on the ROH and NWA-TNA crowd...

 

let's give Orton the Styles Clash as his finisher, and see if he gets over with it.

 

I'd get a good laugh out of it, just cause I'm that cynical.

[Guest Besus]

Three weeks ago, no.

 

Yes.

 

Foley got him a reaction.Remember when Foley said something about him being a coward also? He was shown

on the titantron and he got boos cause of leaving something.

 

and then he came out to NOTHING for his match.

 

True.

 

At least he got a reaction earlier.

 

He came back at the end of May and beat up HBK and Nash, but I'll let you have it.

 

I said June cause I didn't think you'll remember.

He started costing HBK (The top face) matches in June.

 

No he didn't.

 

What matches?

[Guest Choken One]

Just to piss on the ROH and NWA-TNA crowd...

 

let's give Orton the Styles Clash as his finisher, and see if he gets over with it.

 

I'd get a good laugh out of it, just cause I'm that cynical.

I feel sorry for the family of the poor guy who breaks his neck when Orton botches the Styles Clash.