Spain to pull all troops out of Iraq

[Vanhalen 0]

All I can say is that I hope we(Britain) follow suit and leave the Americans to clean up the absolute fuck up they've made

 

Spain PM to withdraw Iraq troops

Spain has more than 1,300 troops in Iraq

Spain's Socialist Party prime minister-elect has confirmed his intention to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq.

Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said: "The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster."

The Socialist Party won a shock poll victory after voters appeared to turn on the government over its handling of the Madrid bombings.

Spain, with more than 1,300 troops in Iraq, was supported the US-led war on Iraq despite much domestic opposition.

Mr Zapatero told Spanish radio that no decision would be taken until he was in power or without wide political consultation.

But the soldiers would be pulled out if there was no change in Iraq by the 30 June deadline for transfer of sovereignty.

Outsider

Socialists won 42% of the vote, while the centre-right Popular Party won 38% in Sunday's general election, held in the wake of the Madrid train bomb attacks that killed 200 people.

The BBC's Chris Morris, in Madrid, says the bombings did more than shock Spain to the core; they proved to be the decisive factor in the general election that ousted the government.

Mr Zapatero was - until Thursday's bombings - considered an outsider for Spain's top job.

Provisional Spanish election results

Socialists (PSOE): 42%

Popular Party (PP): 38%

Catalan Regional Party (CiU): 3%

Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC): 2.5%

United Left (IU): 5%

Turnout: 77%

Despite his party's victory, however, there is expected to be much political "horse-trading" because the Socialists did not win an absolute majority.

While Mr Zapatero said his first priority was to tackle terrorism "in all its forms", he is thought likely to do it in a very different way than the outgoing government.

A larger than expected 77% of the electorate turned out to vote in the wake of last Thursday's attacks.

Our correspondent says the late swing to the Socialists raises one disturbing thought - if al-Qaeda was responsible for Thursday's attacks, it appears to have had significant influence in changing the government of a leading Western democracy.

[Zorin Industries 0]

"Our correspondent says the late swing to the Socialists raises one disturbing thought - if al-Qaeda was responsible for Thursday's attacks, it appears to have had significant influence in changing the government of a leading Western democracy"

 

Very true, with Spain set to leave Iraq, a major coup for al-Qaeda

[Vanhalen 0]

Yeah I agree with that one, it does make you wonder though, given that both America and Spain have been attacked that we are the only ones left not to be attacked, and with a general election next year, could the same follow suit?

[Zorin Industries 0]

Well, the government have said it is a case of "When, rather than If" and I agree. Radical Islam does have a foothold in the U.K, and I could see a possability for al-Qaeda to infiltrate the U.K through there.

[Firestarter 0]

it does make you wonder though, given that both America and Spain have been attacked that we are the only ones left not to be attacked

As soon as the attacks occurred on 9/11, the FAA grounded all civilian aircraft. The UK quickly followed suit, discovering in the process that Big Ben was a designated target later in the day. The terrorists were arrested and no attack on your soil occurred. In other words, 3000 of my countrymen bought your safety with their blood and horror, and the suffering of their friends and families -

 

I hope we(Britain) follow suit and leave the Americans to clean up the absolute fuck up they've made

- you're quite welcome.

[Guest OctoberBlood]

Removing Saddam and his evil dictator ship, making Iraq free and putting a consitution in place, yes.. quite a huge fuck up.

[Vyce 0]

it does make you wonder though, given that both America and Spain have been attacked that we are the only ones left not to be attacked

As soon as the attacks occurred on 9/11, the FAA grounded all civilian aircraft. The UK quickly followed suit, discovering in the process that Big Ben was a designated target later in the day. The terrorists were arrested and no attack on your soil occurred. In other words, 3000 of my countrymen bought your safety with their blood and horror, and the suffering of their friends and families -

 

I hope we(Britain) follow suit and leave the Americans to clean up the absolute fuck up they've made

- you're quite welcome.

You said that far more eloquently than I would have, Marney, and I commend you.

[Swift Terror 0]

Just when you thought it was safe to respect Spain for standing with America to fight terrorism...

 

Way to go, Spainish socialists, for sending the message that terror pays.

 

Where are the Spainish knights we you need them...732 AD, 1492 AD anyone?

 

Charles the Hammer, come back to us.

[Guest Cerebus]

A really good opinion from an Australian daily:

 

  "THE bombs dropped on Baghdad exploded in Madrid!" declared one "peace" protester in Spain. Or as Australian Federal Police Commissioner Mick Keelty put it, somewhat less vividly: "If this turns out to be Islamic extremists . . . it is more likely to be linked to the position that Spain and other allies took on issues such as Iraq."

 

By "other allies", he means you – yes, you, reading this on the bus to work in Australia. You may not have supported the war, or ever voted for John Howard, but you're now a target. In other words, this is "blowback". This is what you get when you side with the swaggering Texas gunslinger and his neocon Zionist sidekicks.

 

There are three responses to Commissioner Keelty:

 

1) Not necessarily.

 

In his penultimate public appearance, the late Osama bin Laden, broadcasting from his cave in the early hours of the Afghan campaign, listed among his principal grievances "the tragedy of Andalusia" – that is, the end of Muslim rule in Spain in 1492. That's 512 years ago, but the al-Qa'ida guys are in no mood to (as the Democrats used to urge Republicans in the Clinton impeachment era) "move on". After half a millennium, even Paula Jones would have thrown in the towel. But not these fellows. They're still settling scores from the 15th century. They might not get around to Johnny-come-lately grievances such as Iraq until the early 2600s.

 

2) Commissioner Keelty could be right.

 

The question then is what does a nation have to do to avoid being targeted by the Islamists. Canada refused to take part in the war on Iraq, but whoever makes Osama's audio tapes these days still named the disinclined dominion as one of al-Qa'ida's enemies. Ireland did no more than allow American aircraft to continue their practice of refuelling at Shannon but that was enough for Robert Fisk to volunteer them for a list of potential Islamist targets.

 

Turkey refused to let the US attack Iraq from its territory, but they made the mistake of permitting the British to maintain consular and commercial ties, so a bunch of Muslims in Istanbul got slaughtered anyway. France was second to none in the creative energy and elegant deviousness they brought to the undermining of Bush and Blair vis a vis Iraq, and the only thanks they got was the detonation of their oil tanker off the coast of Yemen.

 

Maybe you could avoid all that by overthrowing the Bush poodles and installing John Pilger as prime minister. But I wouldn't advise it. Before he became a born-again Baathist urging on the Iraqi resistance, Pilger's big pet cause was independence for East Timor, which seemed like a smart move at the time but has since been cited by the Islamofascists as one of the reasons they blew up Bali.

 

And that brings me to the best response to the commissioner:

 

3) It makes no difference.

 

Even if you'd avoided Iraq or Andalusia or British banks or Pilger or any other affront to Islamist sensibilities, you'd still be a target. As the PR guy for the Islamic Army of Aden said after blowing up that French tanker: "We would have preferred to hit a US frigate, but no problem because they are all infidels." Commissioner Keelty is confusing old-school terrorism – blowing the legs off grannies as a means to an end – with the new: blowing the legs off grannies is the end. Old-school terrorists have relatively viable goals: They want a Basque state or Northern Ireland removed from the UK. You might not agree with these goals, you might not think them negotiable, but at least they're not stark staring insane.

 

That kind of finely calibrated terrorism – just enough slaughter to inconvenience the state into concessions – is all but over. Suppose you're an ETA cell. Suppose you were planning a car-bomb for next month – nothing fancy, just a dead Spanish official plus a couple of unlucky passers-by. Still want to go ahead with it? I doubt it. Despite Gerry Adams's attempts to distinguish between "unacceptable" terrorism and the supposedly more beneficial kind, these days it's a club with only one level of membership. That's why so many formerly active terrorist groups have been so quiet the past couple of years. In that sense, Bush is right: It is a "war on terror", and on many fronts it's being won.

 

If Islamic terrorism were as rational as Irish or Basque terrorism, it would be easier. But Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah, summed it up very pithily: "We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you." You can be pro-America (Spain, Australia) or anti-America (France, Canada), but if you broke into the head cave in the Hindu Kush and checked out the hit list you'd be on it either way.

 

So the choice for pluralist democracies is simple: You can join Bush in taking the war to the terrorists, to their redoubts and sponsoring regimes. Despite the sneers that terrorism is a phenomenon and you can't wage war against a phenomenon, in fact you can – as the Royal Navy did very successfully against the malign phenomena of an earlier age, piracy and slavery.

 

Or you can stick your head in the sand and paint a burqa on your BUTT. But they'll blow it up anyway.

 

Mark Steyn is a columnist for Britain's Telegraph Group and the Chicago Sun-Times.

[Guest OctoberBlood]

Just when you thought it was safe to respect Spain for standing with America to fight terrorism...

 

Way to go, Spainish socialists, for sending the message that terror pays.

Exactly.

 

Nice little quote I heard on MSNBC talking about Spins decision just now....

 

"It's good polictics to be anti-american"..

 

After I heard that, I added.. "..and pro-terroism".

[Anorak 0]

Radical Islam does have a foothold in the U.K, and I could see a possability for al-Qaeda to infiltrate the U.K through there.

Islam having a foothold in the UK - We also have fully fledged Islamic schools now as well which could be labelled a backwards move if you were looking for a particularly charitable way to put it. Your average British school obviously isn't good enough for some of our citizens. Any Roman Catholic/Christian schools etc should be done away with as well but that's a rant for another day.

[Firestarter 0]

Interesting poll results on the CNN website. Obviously, as we've all agreed numerous times, online polling is fairly inaccurate and meaningless, but with a 71/29 split it's probably a halfway decent indicator of American opinion. In fact, since CNN is far more liberal (and thus more likely to be visited by Democrats) than say FNC, the extremely wide skew shown probably understates the case. Despite the media's ludicrously obvious bias (example here), it seems clear that the American people well remember what we're fighting against. And what we're fighting for.

[Firestarter 0]

Another example of blatant media bias here, this time concerning the "controversy" over the 9/11 ads.

[Zorin Industries 0]

I have to say that the PP are partly responsible for the loss, since the people called foul over the immediate claim that it was ETA. Though if it had been ETA then the PP would ahve costed back to power

[Guest MikeSC]

All I can say is that I hope we(Britain) follow suit and leave the Americans to clean up the absolute fuck up they've made

 

Spain PM to withdraw Iraq troops

Spain has more than 1,300 troops in Iraq

Spain's Socialist Party prime minister-elect has confirmed his intention to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq.

Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said: "The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster."

The Socialist Party won a shock poll victory after voters appeared to turn on the government over its handling of the Madrid bombings.

Spain, with more than 1,300 troops in Iraq, was supported the US-led war on Iraq despite much domestic opposition.

Mr Zapatero told Spanish radio that no decision would be taken until he was in power or without wide political consultation.

But the soldiers would be pulled out if there was no change in Iraq by the 30 June deadline for transfer of sovereignty.

Outsider

Socialists won 42% of the vote, while the centre-right Popular Party won 38% in Sunday's general election, held in the wake of the Madrid train bomb attacks that killed 200 people.

The BBC's Chris Morris, in Madrid, says the bombings did more than shock Spain to the core; they proved to be the decisive factor in the general election that ousted the government.

Mr Zapatero was - until Thursday's bombings - considered an outsider for Spain's top job.

Provisional Spanish election results

Socialists (PSOE): 42%

Popular Party (PP): 38%

Catalan Regional Party (CiU): 3%

Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC): 2.5%

United Left (IU): 5%

Turnout: 77%

Despite his party's victory, however, there is expected to be much political "horse-trading" because the Socialists did not win an absolute majority.

While Mr Zapatero said his first priority was to tackle terrorism "in all its forms", he is thought likely to do it in a very different way than the outgoing government.

A larger than expected 77% of the electorate turned out to vote in the wake of last Thursday's attacks.

Our correspondent says the late swing to the Socialists raises one disturbing thought - if al-Qaeda was responsible for Thursday's attacks, it appears to have had significant influence in changing the government of a leading Western democracy.

Yes, because NOTHING teaches terrorists a lesson like cowering in fear. It honestly stuns me how braven the cowardice of continental Europe tends to be. "If we're nice, maybe they'll leave us alone"? Last time I checked, the U.N has been targeted for attacks more than a few times and that organization is a friggin' security blanket for terrorists.

 

Well, Spain sided with Germany in WW II, so this isn't the first time the gov't made an idiotic move.

-=Mike

[Vyce 0]

Yes, because NOTHING teaches terrorists a lesson like cowering in fear. It honestly stuns me how braven the cowardice of continental Europe tends to be.

 

In all seriousness, Mike, I'm with you. I'm just.....I'm really quite stunned at how incredibly weak-willed everyone seems to be over there.

 

And before anyone starts, there's a big difference between being against, say, preemptive military action, and just completely caving in and adopting a doctrine of appeasement to terrorists - which is what Spain has affectively done here.

[Guest MikeSC]

Yes, because NOTHING teaches terrorists a lesson like cowering in fear. It honestly stuns me how braven the cowardice of continental Europe tends to be.

 

In all seriousness, Mike, I'm with you. I'm just.....I'm really quite stunned at how incredibly weak-willed everyone seems to be over there.

 

And before anyone starts, there's a big difference between being against, say, preemptive military action, and just completely caving in and adopting a doctrine of appeasement to terrorists - which is what Spain has affectively done here.

Heck, if they get bombed again, they'll give Al Qaeda money.

Bombed a third time? They might elect bin Laden PM.

-=Mike

...If you won't defend yourself, nobody should shed a drop of blood defending you, either

[Highland 0]

90% of the people in Spain opposed the war in Iraq, the Spanish government chose to ignore their electorate and paid the price for it as would any government that so blatantly ignored the people that elected them.

The ETA (since an al-Qaeda connection is unconfirmed) bombing only served to drive more people to the polls, the fate of the previous government was never in doubt.

Edited March 15, 2004 by Naibus

[Guest MikeSC]

90% of the people in Spain opposed the war in Iraq, the Spanish government chose to ignore their electorate and paid the price for it as would any government that so blatantly ignored the people that elected them.

The ETA (since an al-Qaeda connection is unconfirmed) bombing only served to drive more people to the polls, the fate of the previous government was never in doubt.

And Europe is full of cowards, plain and simple.

 

Do they think that the terrorists CARE if they oppose U.S actions?

 

EUROPE IS FULL OF INFIDELS in their eyes. They'd kill them if they get the chance.

 

And since Spain is pulling out entirely, I say we don't prevent them from getting the chance.

-=Mike

[Justice 0]

90% of the people in Spain opposed the war in Iraq, the Spanish government chose to ignore their electorate and paid the price for it as would any government that so blatantly ignored the people that elected them.

The ETA (since an al-Qaeda connection is unconfirmed) bombing only served to drive more people to the polls, the fate of the previous government was never in doubt.

Uh... the Popular Party was leading in the polls before the bombing. They were supposed to win again.

[Firestarter 0]

90% of the people in Spain opposed the war in Iraq, the Spanish government chose to ignore their electorate and paid the price for it... the fate of the previous government was never in doubt.

Powerplay's right. Every single article I've seen today on the preliminary polls, the election itself, and all exit polls taken flatly contradicts your claim.

[Guest MikeSC]

90% of the people in Spain opposed the war in Iraq, the Spanish government chose to ignore their electorate and paid the price for it... the fate of the previous government was never in doubt.

Powerplay's right. Every single article I've seen today on the preliminary polls, the election itself, and all exit polls taken flatly contradicts your claim.

And that is just sad. It's the most pathetic thing I've EVER seen --- and my expectations for continental Europe are pretty low to begin with.

 

You get attacked by somebody --- and don't blame the ATTACKERS? Heck, you AID the attackers?

 

Spain is not worth our trouble. Let Western continental Europe pull out of Iraq entirely. Let them return to their lives of rising anti-Semitism and the cowardly fear that, if they're nice, the monkeys won't get them.

 

If they're lucky, we'll prevent it from happening.

 

If they aren't, we should not give them one dime in aid, nor do anything to help.

-=Mike

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

EUROPE IS FULL OF INFIDELS in their eyes. They'd kill them if they get the chance.

 

And since Spain is pulling out entirely, I say we don't prevent them from getting the chance.

 

Way to win that war on terror.

[Guest MikeSC]

EUROPE IS FULL OF INFIDELS in their eyes. They'd kill them if they get the chance.

 

And since Spain is pulling out entirely, I say we don't prevent them from getting the chance.

 

Way to win that war on terror.

If you won't fight for yourself, why the hell should ANYBODY risk their lives doing it for you?

-=Mike

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Because not doing so strengthens your enemy.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Furthermore, that just strikes me as a total, "well, FINE, NYAH!" kind of response to suggest we turn our back on terrorist action as being acceptable as long as Spaniards are being blown up. I don't agree with their actions at all, but the spanish government can do whatever the hell they want to do with the spanish military.

[Guest MikeSC]

Because not doing so strengthens your enemy.

Spain pulling out of Iraq has already done that.

 

We should not waste one drop of our blood for those craven cowards.

-=Mike

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Was Spain really doing a whole lot in terms of major military action? When I picture the spanish military, I'm getting guys with moustaches and capes and epees.

[Highland 0]

So a nation that chooses to change it's government to one that isn't in lockstep with the Bush administration is suddenly a terrorist sympathizer? Spain is withdrawing it's troops from Iraq, I've read or heard nothing about it withdrawing it's support on the war on terror.

[Zorin Industries 0]

So a nation that chooses to change it's government to one that isn't in lockstep with the Bush administration is suddenly a terrorist sympathizer?

This is a good point, the Spanish have used there Democratic right to change their their government, a right this war on terror is being fought to protect, and because the result dosen't go the way you want you piss and moan and belittle them. It was their choice, and no matter what influenced that decsion, it has been made, you just have to accept it.