Foley vs. Orton

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I am going to preface this with 2 things.

 

1. I am not anti-Orton and I am not pro-Orton. I'm rather indifferent to him. I don't think he is a great wrestler and I don't think he is horrible, ditto his promos. His character and his portrayal of it, however, has been well done.

 

2. I am very pro-Foley. He is the best promo-man I have ever seen. I am not very pro-Foley 'the wrestler', but wrestling is half-the-battle, and that's why I am calling it (thus far) the storyline of the year.

 

Why do I note this? Because last Monday after Mic Foley cut his (awesome) promo, I posted that this storyline feels real. That that promo, for a second, made me believe that Mick Foley really hated Randy Orton, and that he really wanted to kick his ass. I wondered why.

 

The answer is simple: Continuity.

 

Aside from Foleys conviction and how he delivers his promos, the continuity in this feud and the use of the past has been the major reason why this storyline feels real... at least to me.

 

I am a big proponent of continuity and I talk about how much I hate plot holes. Some people feel they can sacrifice a plot hole or two (or three... or four) if they feel the end is worth it. I usually use how a plot hole can hurt a storyline, or how ignoring history is a bad idea, but this time I will write how using history can make a feud 'good'.

 

Foleys promo last Monday focused on a number of things that went on in his and Randys history. The first of which was him walking out in their match on RAW in December. Actually, the first of which was the staircase incident where Orton threw Foley down the steps of MSG - which they brought up again at Mania in a nice lil segment which was more notable for Batistas pimpin outfit. However, in terms of their current storyline, everything that they have done since then was because of that moment (the spit). As Foley explained in his 'return' promo after the Rumble and again in his promo last Monday, the reason he walked out was because he "didn't want to go there". When he retired he had to leave that "part" of him behind. That sadistic side that inflicted pain and that took more. Randys "Foley is a bitch" promos brought that side back out of him (as mentioned again by Foley - continuity, making effective use of history). They referring back to these two points - that Foley wanted out, that Randy pulled him back. Now, at Backlash, Randy will suffer the consequences.

 

It feels "real" because it actually happened. At least, it happened on television. We all saw it happen, and Foley throws in this pieces of truth - about fighting in death matches in Japan, being an author, wife and kids, Randy leaving the Army, for example - that makes it personal. So when he says these things along with Randys ads, spitting in his face, etc., they blend together as one. Foley went back to Wrestlemania and said that "in a 3 on 2 situation, against a Hollywood Actor and a Childrens book author, you won", it was meant as a jab, but it also brought some perspective on their storyline.

 

This is one of the rare WWE storylines where both guys don't look bad. Foley has gotten beaten again and again and again but he doesn't look bad because (a)Foley is recognized as a guy who takes a beating, (b)Foley is best in a hardcore environment, so when he is out of his element you can understand him losing, ( c) his promos always has him in a power position. Orton isn't the typical cowardly heel who runs away at all opportunities either. He accepted the streetfight at Backlash, he wants to fight Foley as well, he has beat the shit out of Mick on multiple occasions. Both of their characters are backed up by what they do in and outside the ring. The words actually reflect what is going on in the story - not just some things we have to accept just cause they say it. It's convincing because things are established, re-established, and backed up. It's something you don't regularly see in the WWE, but something you normally see on a television drama.

 

Screw the wrestlers watching Hunter vs. Benjamin to learn how to work, the writers and bookers should be watching Foley/Orton to see how to write a fucking storyline.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Nice article you wrote there, RRR.

[Tawren 0]

Maybe it's my anti-Foley hatred clouding my judgment, but I hate this storyline. Why are they feuding in the first place? Foley comes back as GM for no reason, got scheduled for a match with Orton for no good reason and no build up, walks out, comes back and shits all over his legacy by wrestling, which he promised never to do again, loses to Orton clean, cuts several promos that are carbon copies of what we've been hearing from him since 1999.

 

I hate it.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Absolutely not. Neither man has the in-ring skill to back up the storyline.

 

Besides, we've gotten...

 

THREE-on-ONE beatdowns of Foley for 2 months.

ROCK RETURNS.

 

Which has taken the focus off the Foley/Orton singles hatred. Only now is it (kind of picking up).

 

Benoit's performance at the Rumble and spectacular effort at WM to the top of RAW is the best storyline in a long while.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You make a good point Tawren - Foley is supposed to be retired and they didn't really explain why he's back. It's a leap, most definitely, and I can see where you are coming from. I just think that they have used what they have done in the past 3 months much more effectively than any other storyline they have written and that should be recognized. They do stuff and don't actually forget about it. It makes my watching their story unfold worth it.

[Guest Coffey]

Yeah, I'm not too big a fan of it either. I'm not a big Randy Orton fan and I've never been a big Mick Foley fan. I can't get into it like I should because I don't really care about either man in the storyline.

 

That being said, it seems as if it's been executed well to me. Foley not only has had to defend himself against Randy Orton, but Evolution as a whole as well. He was outnumbered, so he brought back The Rock to try to even the odds more. They still lost as they were still out numbered. So, now he has "Barbie" as the equalizer. It makes sense because it's Foley. I thought last Raw was a damn good promo by Foley.

 

I guess I'm in the middle. I don't care about either wrestler really, but this storyline has made me pay more attention to them.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

RRR, you just explained why Mick Foley has been one of the best wrestlers of the past decade. Though I can't argue with Tawren saying Foley's coming back after he said he wouldn't is bs.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You did that just to spite me, didn't you sledge? The Benoit storyline was fucking BAD. And it's still going on and it's still bad. Benoit and Michaels best friends = bad!

[Guest Trivia247]

The Intial feud can be summed up in what Foley said.

 

"You have proved to me beyond the Shadow of a Doubt, that in a three on two situation you can beat, a Actor, and a Award winning Children book Author."

 

It seem that the Feud was just another Feeding to Orton to make him look good, but each beating seem to be more montanious than it build up the feud.

 

im hoping this time round on the singles match that there will be more back and forth. Though by last Raw it doesn't look like it will change much.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Of course it's the storyline of the year. Everything else fucking sucks. Though I suspect that "Bradshaw: Ethnic Cleanser" has the the potential to go really far.

 

Though, having said that, I'm torn on this angle. I really dig what they've done so far with both characters and I like the fact that neither looks like a loser. But Foley is acting a bit too heelish for my tastes lately and has come off looking desperate. Which I've got no problem with. If Foley was going over.

 

I think the problem itself lay in the Mania booking. Orton did what he set out to do. He killed a legend. He beat Foley, 1-2-3 in the middle of the ring, no cheating or interference. Fine, sure, whatever.

 

But now Foley wants more and the character itself has been altered the point where it's almost selfish of Foley to challenge Orton. Not only selfish, but also sadistic as illustrated by the barb wire bat promo on Monday (which kicked 1000 types of ass, btw.)

 

It almost seems to me that Foley can't deal with his loss to Orton so he's using it as an excuse to revert back to the Cactus Jack/hardcore character of old. The booking almost puts Orton in a sympathetic light, IMO, simply because all he did was pin Foley 1-2-3 and now he's paying for a clean victory.

[Dandy 0]

The way I look at the retirements of wrestlers is much different than everyone else does. With wrestling, you have a TON of wrestlers retiring only to come back time and again (re: Funk, Terry). I actually considere Foley retired, and seeing him wrestle two matches (WM2000 and WMXX) doesn't make me consider him an unretired wrestler. He's retired, but makes appearances now and then. If he did what Shawn Michaels is doing nowadays, I would consider him unretired and consider him going back on his promise.

 

And to get back on topic with Rudo's post, I agree 100%, but Benoit's may top depending on if they change it up a bit. The Rumble and Mania were gold, since then, there's been noone for him to wrestle, and they should have turned HBK heel for the Canada trip. HBK vs. Benoit for the title in Canada, then make a ladder match (which has been rumored for a long time) at the following PPV or even SummerSlam.

[Guest Anglesault]

I just can't get into it.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

What's so great about Benoit's? A good performance at the Rumble and a title win at Mania. They've done NOTHING to show his drvie for the belt, they've done very little to emphasize how much it means to him. And now him and HBK are suddenly bed buddies after being at each other's throats for a month. Yah great feud.

 

I'm not too fond of Foley/Orton either but it's storyline of the year by default - although I liked Brock/Eddie for the two-three weeks it spanned. I don't like Foley and am totally impartial to Orton but one way or another I'm finding Orton much more appealing to cheer in this feud. The way it's gone makes me cheer Orton at Backlash.

[Guest Coffey]

Benoit has had surgery on his neck and Shawn Michaels has a back that in in horrible shape. Why would anyone want to see those two in a Ladder Match? That's just asking for something to go horribly wrong.

[AndrewTS 0]

Tawren and Lord of the Curry pretty much said what I have to say, but throwing my 2 cents into it...

 

Okay, why should I be rooting for Foley again? In "big matches" he's a gigantic loser. The feuds that pretty much made him a star were him getting his ass kicked. He got some wins over Taker as Mankind, and that was one of the main ways he was pushed--but the only match people remember from that era is Mick nearly getting killed.

 

He's HHH's bitch any time they had a match. Yeah, lots of punishment, but Mick always lost.

 

Basically, they make such a big deal about him going into this persona and being the master of this hardcore environment--always when he's about to become someone's bitch. Now he's not even been wrestling regularly and I'm supposed to buy that this is different?

 

The big question--why should I hate Orton again? His "cocky" promos just sound stupid, forced, poorly-rehearsed and unnatural. Orton hasn't cut any money promos for this at all. He hasn't shown he's really frightened, intimidated, worried--more like "gassy." HHH's promos during the Foley feud really helped cement the storyline--especially his reaction to the Cactus transformation. Orton hasn't really been a major part of this feud as far as building it up and making you give a damn. He's just there.

 

He wasn't 30 feet away when Foley apparently "transformed." He watched it on a TV monitor, and didn't sell it as it if were a big deal or if he even cared. Why should I?

 

All the focus is on Foley and his mind games. Yeah, Orton would look pretty pathetic trying to match wits with Foley because he sucks ass on the mic, but that's something HHH had in his favor that Orton doesn't. That can't be fixed, but having equal time would help. Instead we have Orton cutting two-bit indy promos opposite Foley hamming it up.

 

It just makes me think of a smaller-scale version of how HBK keeps getting his ass handed to him by HHH, and he keeps getting more chances at the title.

 

Also, why the hell is the IC title even involved? Couldn't that be used in other feud? Foley doesn't seem to have the slightest bit of interest in it. Orton doesn't seem to care about it. Foley hasn't stopped Orton from cheating in matches where the title has been on the line, which could have added fuel to the fire.

 

If Foley were to stop some cheating by Orton, Flair, etc to prevent a cheap win (too late now, probably), and then a face wrestler wins the title--you could have had a good way to build the feud and then get the title on another wrestler, which could make another match for the PPV and build to a rematch between Orton/whomever.

 

Also, maybe it's the bad jokes, the Chef Boyardee commercials, Socko, stories of him going to a Britney Spears concert, etc, etc--but I cannot buy Foley as a badass no matter how much ham he serves up in a backstage promo.

[Highland 0]

Even though his actions seem heelish, I don't think the fans will boo Foley, he's just too over.

I fully expect the match to be bloody and hopefully good, with Orton getting the win. I also predict we hear endless bitching about it in the wwe folder.

There's another road, which I think was mentioned somewhere, is that this might lead to Foley becoming Orton's manager. Hear me out: Foley has constantly called out Orton for his cowardice and for only being famous because of his family, but when Foley challeged him at Backlash, Flair tried to refuse, but it was Orton that interrupted him and accepted. If Orton beats Foley at Backlash, it could be like he earns Foley's respect, and vice versa, since Foley will put Orton through hell in the match.

Also, aside from the Flair promo putting Orton over, I get the feeling that he's definately the outsider of the group, even with the IC belt.

HHH will never let anyone else but him lead a stable he is part of, so I dismiss any thoughts of Orton taking over Evolution or HHH being kicked out. Win or lose at Backlash, shortly after Orton is getting kicked out of Evolution and getting a new manager in Foley.

[AndrewTS 0]

Orton beats Foley..."mutual respect"...Foley becomes Orton's manager?!

 

Who would shit on that more, marks or smarks?

[Highland 0]

Orton beats Foley..."mutual respect"...Foley becomes Orton's manager?!

 

Who would shit on that more, marks or smarks?

It hardly something new, storylinewise, and anything involving Orton gets shit on here.

[Highland 0]

And the change would be gradual, I'm not refering to a nauseating mutual respect hug post match.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I can totally buy Foley as a sadistic bastard, I've seen the matches and I've heard the promo's. I don't know if I buy him as a sadist in this situation, though. This is basically HHH vs Foley lite where Foley "transformed" into Cactus Jack after getting his ass handed to him by HHH. And ya know what? He STILL got his ass handed to him when he was Cactus Jack.

 

History repeats itself and though I really like the effort and character build they're putting into this feud, I can't care about it.

 

What they should've done was given Foley his Mania win over Orton and then the next night on RAW have Orton come down and call out Foley. Have him cut a scathing-ass promo, not holding anything back, calling Foley a sellout for coming back, etc. All the while Foley keeps silent. Finally, he speaks and tells Randy "I beat you fair and square. Let it go. You don't want to keep going down this road with me." Then Orton cold-cocks him and we get the Evolution beatdown, all the while Foley screams "Don't make me go back there!". Then he can cut his "transformation" promo and it would work a lot better.

 

This way it looks like Orton forced Foley to transform by beating the shit out of him and disrespecting him, when in reality Foley is forced to transform because he couldn't get the job done as plain old Mick Foley. To add onto something earlier, when Foley mocked Orton for beating a "Hollywood star" and a "childrens author", was he trying to bury himself and Rock? Because he sure as shit didn't do anybody any favours.

 

If I were a mark I'd be thinking "Mick Foley lost to Randy Orton at WrestleMania fair and square so he needs to be in the hardcore environment to beat him." Sure, the scenario would work fine IF Foley was going over as character evolution is good reasoning behind putting somebody over.

 

But Foley isn't going over.

[humongous2002 0]

I could care less about either and i'm a Foley fan, i guess is my Orton dislike that's clouding my judgement.

[Scroby 0]

You know, its really to eary to be saying that anything is Feud or Storyline of the year. Its really to early in the year to say anything is match of the year or storyline of the year. But I do agree with you Triple R (HA!), Orton vs Foley has been maybe the best feud WWE has produced so far this year, Shelton vs HHH with only really a feud thats only gone a week, can't touch it. The Beniot vs HHH vs HBK has actually got pretty annoying as of lates I don't even wanan bring up Bradshaw vs Eddie. Goldberg vs Brock could have been good if they had a decent match at WM 20. I'm pretty sure Besus is as happy as hell right now reading this discussion.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The only problem with Foley not winning at Mania is that it was at Mania and didn't end. Mania should either be the birth or death of a feud and it was neither - just a continuing point and the rock hasn't followed up on it at all.

 

And people are ignoring my main point. I don't care if you "feel it" or not - it doesn't give me goosebumps either (though Foleys 2 big promos sure as hell came close) - because I can't tell you what to feel. The storyline itself, however, with their continual use of what they did previously makes it heads-and-shoulders above everything else.

[Guest I Got Banned for Sucking]

This is an excellent feud - when it started, it made sense, and it still does now. The fact that it has had all of this build-time has been an excellent addition.

 

People care about it - and it's a classic 'Teacher VS Student' story, or at least, that's what I'd liken it to.

 

I was hanging out for the ***** promo in this feud - Mick Foley's interview with Jim Ross wasn't bad, but it and last week's promo seem to fall into the category of "Mick Foley can just pull out an excellent promo when he wants, but it's not natural - it's like his niche now" - I don't give a shit. "Barbie" was a ***** promo, because it drew you in to tell it's story, and when it did it, it did it well.

 

I love this feud - it's just got such a damn great flow.

[The Tino Standard 0]

Anybody know where I can get a video clip of this awesome promo from Foley from last week? I missed half of Raw and unfortunately, that was in the half I missed.

[Guest I Got Banned for Sucking]

I'd send you a copy of the tape if you lived nearby, Tino.

 

Do you use KaZaA? It should be available on there.

 

I'd say that it'll be replayed at some point.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Foley's promo was good. But, I think the fact that SOMETHING in this feud wasn't awful is clouding a lot of your judgments and making you overrate it. It was a good promo.

 

Benoit over HHH is storyline of the year because:

 

-Benoit won the Rumble with an amazing performance.

-He came to RAW, with no story, and the fans and crowd were confused.

-He went on to defeat make Batista tap, something no one else has done.

-He beat Flair.

-He won over the fans and MAIN EVENTED the biggest show ever, and produced a **** match at Mania with two guys who we thought would never be upstaged.

-He has been booked as a strong champion, and is now receiving tremendous responses as the fans are accepting him as a credible Raw main eventer.

-They're booking a rematch based on the strength of the WM Main event.

-Benoit's gone from wrestling A-Train and Matt Morgan, to feuding with Mr. Helmsley-McMahon, main eventing Raw, and holding the World Title, in a few months.

 

Elevation.

 

Foley Vs. Orton? A fat, washed up, overrated legend who wrote an excellent autobiography Vs. a young kid that the WWE is pushing down our throats. Storyline of the year, my ass.

[tommytomlin 0]

Apart from the WM Match (which was only good because of the performances of Rock and Flair) and the promo where Foley cut his own skin, the Foley/Orton storyline hasn't done much for me at all. The two just don't 'click' like Foley/Rock and Foley/Taker. I just can't believe that this is Foley's gravest challenge yet, like he keeps telling us it is.

 

Benoit's Title Run was the best executed storyline of the past year IMHO.

[Guest I Got Banned for Sucking]

Mick Foley and Randy Orton might not click tremendously, but pretty much everything that could be done right has been in this feud.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You are both on Crack.

 

Foley's promo was good. But, I think the fact that SOMETHING in this feud wasn't awful is clouding a lot of your judgments and making you overrate it. It was a good promo.

 

No, it's that they are making use of the history of their feud that makes it so good. They don't just use plot devices like the Benoit/HBK/HHH storyline did for convience, what they do actually *means* something.

 

Benoit over HHH is storyline of the year because:

 

-Benoit won the Rumble with an amazing performance.

 

Which rarely was ever brought up nor really affect the story in anyway since Benoit wasn't in a power position despite his "amazing performance". Infact, all it did was bring Benoit to RAW to "be the best" - something that wasn't really followed up on either.

 

-He came to RAW, with no story, and the fans and crowd were confused.

 

And also played second fiddle to Foley/Orton. And also was bogged down by Austin and HBK.

 

-He went on to defeat make Batista tap, something no one else has done.

 

Michaels beat Batista 2 months earlier at Armageddon. Batista is the lowest guy on that totem pole with the guy below at #3. HHH and Orton are the only ones who are strong in Evolution.

 

-He beat Flair.

 

Rico beat Flair. Whoopie. It means nothing. The WWE, however, tried to play it up like "Yes! Yes! I think Chris Benoit CAN beat HHH now!" Yes, RR2k4 winner who lasted longer than Shawn Michaels (but its not like that affected the storyline) was able to convince JR that he might be able to beat HHH after getting the victory over a 50+ year old man. Great storytelling there.

 

-He won over the fans and MAIN EVENTED the biggest show ever, and produced a **** match at Mania with two guys who we thought would never be upstaged.

 

In a 3 way. For the World Title. A title that benoit never showed any interest in, in a match where he wasn't even the main focus leading up into the event. "Won over the fans" is laughable.

 

-He has been booked as a strong champion, and is now receiving tremendous responses as the fans are accepting him as a credible Raw main eventer.

 

What show have you been watching?

 

-They're booking a rematch based on the strength of the WM Main event.

 

Yeah, it's "the strength of the WM main event", it's not because HHH (or Shawn) don't want to drop down the card and let someone else by. Has there been one singular moment in this feud where Benoit has been given "the ball" - on his own - and ran with it? Seriously, has there been one moment where he was alone, on his own? I don't think he's cut a promo on his own - it's always been against Hunter or Jericho or Michaels. Even his win at Mania was "shared" with Guerrero. Even his "big match" was shared with Michaels. He hasn't even been the focus of ANY of the post-mania shows and doesn't look to be either. He's "sharing" his match in his hometown.

 

-Benoit's gone from wrestling A-Train and Matt Morgan, to feuding with Mr. Helmsley-McMahon, main eventing Raw, and holding the World Title, in a few months.

 

Elevation.

 

What, in the past 4 weeks on RAW, has shown that Benoit has been "elevated" because of his WM win?

 

Foley Vs. Orton? A fat, washed up, overrated legend who wrote an excellent autobiography Vs. a young kid that the WWE is pushing down our throats. Storyline of the year, my ass.

 

You mean "Storyline of the year, my head." Same place, it seems.