OK America, Defend this

[Vanhalen 0]

 

 

Images of US soldiers allegedly abusing Iraqi prisoners at a notorious jail near Baghdad have sparked shock and anger.

Politicians in the US, Britain and the Middle East expressed disgust at the images, broadcast on US television, and called for those responsible to face justice.

 

CBS News said it delayed the broadcast for two weeks after a request from the Pentagon due to the tensions in Iraq.

 

Last month, the US army suspended 17 soldiers over alleged prisoner abuses.

 

Elsewhere in Iraq, US marines have begun withdrawing from the Iraqi city of Falluja after a month of bloody clashes with rebels.

 

Saddam Hussein's prisoners were not only tortured but executed. It was much worse than what is there now

Adnan Al-Pachachi

Iraqi Governing Council

 

'Appalled'

 

Six soldiers - including a brigadier general - are facing court martial in Iraq, and a possible prison term over the PoW pictures.

 

A spokesman for British Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was "appalled" and described the incident as regrettable.

 

Abu Ghraib prison was much feared in Saddam Hussein's era

 

US Republican congressman, Jim Leach - who had opposed the war - said: "The US has historically prided itself on treating prisoners of war with decency and respect.

 

"This has to be investigated and accountability obtained within the American military justice system."

 

Adnan Al-Pachachi, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, said it would create a great deal of anger and discontent among Iraqis already concerned about security in the country.

 

But he rejected a comparison with the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad during the days of Saddam Hussein.

 

"I don't think you can compare the two. Saddam Hussein's prisoners were not only tortured but executed. It was much worse than what is there now."

 

Graphic

 

The graphic images include one of a hooded and naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals. CBS said the prisoner was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

 

Another shows naked prisoners being forced to simulate sex acts. In another, a female soldier, with a cigarette in her mouth, simulates holding a gun and pointing at a naked Iraqi's genitals.

 

We had no support, no training. I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations

 

Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick

One of the suspended soldiers

 

Blair condemns abuse

 

CBS's flagship 60 Minutes programme said it had been pressured by the Pentagon not to show the images, until the photos started circulating elsewhere.

 

"The Pentagon was really very concerned about broadcasting the pictures, and I think they had good reason," said 60 Minute executive producer Jeff Fager.

 

"The idea that there are hostages being held in Iraq concerned us quite a bit in terms of broadcasting them. It wouldn't take long to get on Al-Jazeera at all."

 

Mr Fager told the BBC's Today programme the pictures were initially brought to the attention of US military in Iraq, and formed the centrepiece of proceedings against the soldiers.

 

'No training'

 

One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

 

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."

 

He said he did not see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

 

Deputy head of coalition forces in Iraq, Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt told CBS the army was "appalled" by the behaviour of its soldiers.

 

He said the suspected abusers "let their fellow soldiers down".

 

Meanwhile, a new opinion poll for the New York Times and CBS News suggested dwindling support among Americans for the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

 

Only 47% of 1,042 Americans questioned believed invading Iraq was the right thing to do, the lowest support recorded in the polls since the war began.

[Guest Cerebus]

Luckily for you that this was American gov't policy like what Canada would be doing if they gave those soldiers asylum ...wait its not.

[Vanhalen 0]

Eh? What the hell did that sentence mean?

[Stephen Joseph 0]

That's why when this was found out we deal with those doing it...you don't see the military ignoring this do you?

[Guest thebigjig]

From what I hear, the soldiers will be prosecuted to the full extent of military law... but the real problem is that these images are NOT helping our image with middle eastern countries, and I just heard that middle eastern networks are airing these pictures non stop

[Vanhalen 0]

That's why when this was found out we deal with those doing it...you don't see the military ignoring this do you?

So torture and psychological trauma is ok, as long as you deal with it afterwards?

[Guest thebigjig]

That's why when this was found out we deal with those doing it...you don't see the military ignoring this do you?

So torture and psychological trauma is ok, as long as you deal with it afterwards?

This isnt going on in the entire military... it's a rare case. The fact of the matter, is that there will be people that misbehave, and the military deals with them like they are now.

 

If this were a widespread problem, you would have a point, but it's not

[EricMM 0]

Well what else in the world are we supposed to do??

[Guest Cerebus]

Eh? What the hell did that sentence mean?

Allow me to explain.

 

You see the title of THIS thread is "OK America, Defend this" and you specifically referenced Mike's thread which is titled "OK Canada, Defend this." The article Mike posted was one about the Candaian GOVERNMENT possibly giving AWOL soldiers asylum. Your article is about a handful of American soldiers being prosecuted by the government. The two are anything but similar.

[Slayer 0]

Eh? What the hell did that sentence mean?

Allow me to explain.

 

You see the title of THIS thread is "OK America, Defend this" and you specifically referenced Mike's thread which is titled "OK Canada, Defend this." The article Mike posted was one about the Candaian GOVERNMENT possibly giving AWOL soldiers asylum. Your article is about a handful of American soldiers being prosecuted by the government. The two are anything but similar.

I agree with this sentiment

 

...but your first sentence in this thread really was incomprehensible

[Guest thebigjig]

I dont think he meant to compare STORIES... he just took the title to the thread, and mocked it

[Guest Cerebus]

Eh? What the hell did that sentence mean?

Allow me to explain.

 

You see the title of THIS thread is "OK America, Defend this" and you specifically referenced Mike's thread which is titled "OK Canada, Defend this." The article Mike posted was one about the Candaian GOVERNMENT possibly giving AWOL soldiers asylum. Your article is about a handful of American soldiers being prosecuted by the government. The two are anything but similar.

I agree with this sentiment

 

...but your first sentence in this thread really was incomprehensible

I'm typing about 3 memos while I post here...that's my excuse.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

That bottom photo looks like a hippie Klansman -- sorta...

[Slayer 0]

I'm typing about 3 memos while I post here...that's my excuse.

Get back to work, slacker!

 

*watches out for own boss while typing*

[Guest Razor Roman]

IT wasn't condoned by the government. Bush didn't tell the soldiers to do that. So we deal with it afterwards, that's all we can do.

 

You guys are the ones saying "Now make sure you remember all muslims aren't responsible for terrorism" So now we say to you "Remember, all American soldiers aren't responsible for this".

 

And besides, it's not like Al JAzeera is going to find Americans in the street dancing and singing over this, like some people were doing on 9/11.

 

Also, why don't the Iraqi's (or perhaps their supporters?) explain

THIS

[Vanhalen 0]

I dont think he meant to compare STORIES... he just took the title to the thread, and mocked it

I still retain faith in the human race , it was a little joke in reference to the little title, hence the smiley.

[Vanhalen 0]

IT wasn't condoned by the government. Bush didn't tell the soldiers to do that. So we deal with it afterwards, that's all we can do.

 

You guys are the ones saying "Now make sure you remember all muslims aren't responsible for terrorism" So now we say to you "Remember, all American soldiers aren't responsible for this".

 

And besides, it's not like Al JAzeera is going to find Americans in the street dancing and singing over this, like some people were doing on 9/11.

 

Also, why don't the Iraqi's (or perhaps their supporters?) explain

THIS

I dont support anyone to be honest, both sides are right and wrong, both the pictures in that link and also the ones I posted are completly wrong, they all make me feel sick.

[Vanhalen 0]

Just one last note before I go, im not liberal, im not a hawk either, nor am i on the fence if that makes sense, its just i see things on both sides of the war which are just wrong, i.e the jessica lynch thing, and also those poor people who are being hijacked and mutilated two or three weeks ago, if i see something interesting in the news that hasnt been picked up, i try to bring it out, if you know what i mean, not to cause arguments or to try and start some silly america is evil, Bush is evil stupid argument like some silly leftys do.

[Guest Razor Roman]

I can appreciate your opinion; and I understand some people just don't believe in fighting period. My problem is John Kerry and Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd and Frank Lausenberg had no problem with Bill Clinton saying we needed to bomb Iraq because of WMD during the Lewinsky scandal. They all agreed Saddam had weapons then, but now somehow they knew all along he didn't. I also think now that pulling out would be a signal to the terrorists that if they up our body counts we'll fold. Bin Laden was said to have taught the lesson of "Black Hawk Down" to his minions.

[Skywarp! 0]

IT wasn't condoned by the government. Bush didn't tell the soldiers to do that. So we deal with it afterwards, that's all we can do.

 

You guys are the ones saying "Now make sure you remember all muslims aren't responsible for terrorism" So now we say to you "Remember, all American soldiers aren't responsible for this".

 

And besides, it's not like Al JAzeera is going to find Americans in the street dancing and singing over this, like some people were doing on 9/11.

 

Also, why don't the Iraqi's (or perhaps their supporters?) explain

THIS

What is the story to those pictures?

[Stephen Joseph 0]

4 Civilian contractors, ambushed, killed, mutilated, hung in effigy.

 

Does that answer your question, or was that a rhetorical one? If it was, it doesn't make for a very effective point.

[NoCalMike 0]

Well as far as we know, this is an isolated incident, endorsed by NO ONE, and the soldiers responsible are going to be dealt with....Case closed.

[Skywarp! 0]

4 Civilian contractors, ambushed, killed, mutilated, hung in effigy.

 

Does that answer your question, or was that a rhetorical one? If it was, it doesn't make for a very effective point.

Of course it was a real question.

[Vanhalen 0]

Well it looks like it isnt a isolated problem as people claim, and to our countrys shame, people in the british army are torturing iraqis now

 

A HOODED Iraqi captive is beaten by British soldiers before being thrown from a moving truck and left to die.

 

The prisoner, aged 18-20, begged for mercy as he was battered with rifle butts and batons in the head and groin, was kicked, stamped and urinated on, and had a gun barrel forced into his mouth.

 

After an EIGHT-HOUR ordeal, he was left barely conscious and close to death. Bleeding and vomiting and with a broken jaw and missing teeth, he was driven from a Basra camp and hurled off the truck. No one knows if he lived or died.

 

 

 

URINATED ON: A British soldier urinates on an Iraqi prisoner in a vile display of abuse. The captive was beaten and hurled from a moving truck. Army chiefs are investigating.

 

The shocking pictures on this page were handed to us by one of the attackers and a colleague. We have agreed to protect their identities as they fear reprisals.

 

Last night, their damning testimony was in the hands of appalled ministers and Army chiefs who pledged an urgent investigation.

 

Chief of the General Staff General Sir Michael Jackson said: "If this is proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the Army and its honour."

 

No 10 said: "The Prime Minister fully endorses the general's statement."

 

The outrage, which emerged the day after US troops were pictured torturing Iraqi prisoners of war, makes a mockery of the Army's attempts to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

 

 

GUN TO HEAD: The terrified suspect cowers as a gun is placed at his head - then the rifle barrel was forced into his mouth

 

Army chiefs believe it was an isolated incident involving a few rogue troops. But, it is claimed, officers turned a blind eye. One of the soldiers said: "Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The paperwork gets ripped. So they threw him out, still with a bag on his head."

 

Weeks after the pictures were taken, a captive was allegedly beaten to death in custody by men from the same Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It is also alleged a video was found of prisoners being thrown off a bridge.

 

Soldier A told how the young victim was hauled in suspected of stealing from the docks.

 

He said: "You pick on a man and go for him. Straightaway he gets a beating, a couple of punches and kicks to put him down. Then he was dragged to the back of the vehicle."

 

Immediately a sandbag was placed over the man's head and his hands tied behind his back.

 

Soldier A said:

 

As we took him back he was getting a beating. He was hit with batons on the knees, fingers, toes, elbows, and head.

 

You normally try to leave off the face until you're in camp. If you pull up with black eyes and bleeding faces you could be in s**t.

 

"So it's body shots - scaring him, saying 'We're going to kill you'. A lot of them cry and p*** themselves.

 

Because it was so hot we put him in the back of a four- tonner truck which has a canopy over it. That's where the photos were taken. Lads were taking turns giving him a right going over, smashing him in the face with weapons and stamping on him. We had him for about eight hours.

 

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/mirror/m...0BFB6FA0000.jpg

 

BLEEDING: Blood seeps through the mask of battered suspect

 

You could see blood coming out early from the first 'digs'. He was p****d on and there was spew.

 

"We took his mask off to give him some water and let him have a rest for 10 minutes. He could only speak a few words, pleading 'No, mister' . No, mister'.

 

I did less than the others. But I joined in. Me and my mate calmed down. Then two lads come on and it starts again.

 

"He was missing teeth. All his mouth was bleeding and his nose was all over the place. He couldn't talk, his jaw was out. He's had a good few hours of a kicking. He was on his way to being killed. There's only so much you can take.

 

After the officer allegedly told the attackers to get rid of the suspect he was driven off.

 

Soldier A said: "The lads said they took him back to the dock and threw him off the back of a moving vehicle. They'd have freed his hands, but he'd still be hooded. He'd done nothing, really. I felt sorry for him. I'm not emotional about it, but I knew it was wrong."

 

Referring to the second alleged beating in custody - said to have taken place in September - Soldier B said: "It was only a matter of time.

 

 

BUTT IN GROIN: A rifle is cruelly jabbed in the young man's groin as his eight-hour nightmare goes on

 

"We had one who fought back. I thought 'Don't do that', it's the worst thing you can do. He got such a kicking. You could hear your mate's boots hitting this lad's spine.

 

"One of the lads broke his wrist on a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot, kicking him. We're not helping ourselves out here. We're never going to get the Iraqis on our side. We're fighting a losing war."

 

Soldier B claimed after the alleged September beating troops were told to destroy incriminating evidence.

 

He said: "We got a warning, saying the Military Police had found a video of people throwing prisoners off a bridge. It wasn't 'Don't do it' or 'Stop it'. It was 'Get rid of it.' "

 

The death is being probed. At least one soldier is expected to be charged with manslaughter.

 

The two infantrymen claim abuse has started because Iraqi police are powerless to process suspects.

 

Soldier B said: "There's no point taking them to the police station because they're released within 20 minutes. The coppers don't want any comeback and let them go. All we do is teach them a lesson our way.

 

"You're knackered and you don't want to be going to a police station and doing statements, just for them to be released. Give them a kicking, then it's done and dusted.

 

"A lot of the younger ones are worse. It's as though they've something to prove. You've got a gun and you're the law. You can make people do whatever you want."

 

Both men fear the situation is worsening , with UK troops now seen as the enemy, rather than liberators.

 

One said: "I can't believe it has taken the Iraqis so long to fight back. If it had been me or my family, I'd have retaliated straightaway.

 

"They've just got f****d around so much. You can't go in now, and say 'Right, let's forget about what has happened and start again'.

 

"We're struggling now. There are too many people against us."

 

The MoD confirmed eight cases of alleged mistreatment of Iraqis by British personnel are being investigated by the army's Special Investigations Branch. A spokesman said: "All allegations will be investigated - and every soldier knows it."

[EricMM 0]

Yes it IS isolated, because it's NOT the army's policy to do this, it's a couple of rogue soldiers who aren't being controlled.

 

Yes, it is the army's fault this is happening. If it's not addressed, it would be a mockery. But it's NOT policy. Get it through your head.

[Guest Cerebus]

Because he says it more eloquently I'll quote Sgt. Stryker (a former Air Force sgt.)

 

You, and those whom you were charged with supervising- wait, did anyone ever tell you that maintaning discipline and standards of conduct is your main charge as an NCO? Did this piece of training slip through the cracks as well? You know, I wear the same uniform. I'm an NCO as well. Not only have you disgraced yourself, your unit, your country and humanity, your actions have disgraced me and everyone else who wears that uniform. Your stupidity, ignorance, and cruelty have stained all of us, because of that uniform we all wear. It's the binding tie that connects not only all of us serving today, but everyone who has ever served and those who will serve in the future. That uniform is stained with the noble blood of those who've fallen in battle for their country, but you have smeared that uniform -my uniform!- with the excrement of malevolent barbarism.

 

You have failed in every possible way a soldier can fail. You failed, as an NCO, to maintain basic standards of military order and discipline. You failed, as a soldier, to maintain the highest standards of conduct required of you by the United States Government. You failed, as a human being, to afford even the slightest bit of dignity and respect to those placed under your care. And what do you have to say in your defense? You only offer excuses that blame everyone else but yourself. You, and those who shared in your depravity, are a disgrace and a shame. May the military justice system have more mercy on you than you could muster for your own prisoners.

 

I have to stop here, because I'm too enraged to continue. Maybe next time, I'll try to understand just why the entire chain-of-command failed to discharge every major responsibility required of it.

 

Amen Sergeant.

[Guest hunger4unger]

I see the Brits are in on it too, photos of British soldiers beating and urinating on an Iraqi civilian are all over the UK tabloids today. Way to win the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqi people.

[Guest MikeSC]

I see the Brits are in on it too, photos of British soldiers beating and urinating on an Iraqi civilian are all over the UK tabloids today. Way to win the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqi people.

Yeah, I'm sure this will make the ones who already hate us hate us that much more.

 

I'm just waiting for a "veterans group" to come out and claim that these atrocities are common and widespread.

 

Then, they'll get one of their own elected to the Senate.

 

Then...

-=Mike

[Highland 0]

This reminds me of that 101st air regiment that was dispanded for torturing Somali's and hazing their own members.

Of course, I doubt the regiment or whatever grouping these people are in will be disbanded.

[Lando Griffin 0]

One thing bugging me: Who the hell is taking pictures of these incidents? I'm not condoning what they did, but you have to be an idiot to take pictures of this stuff.