What are the causes of prisoner abuse in Iraq?

[C Dubya 04 0]

http://mediamatters.org/items/200405070003

 

I know, it's a "liberal" website, but some of these quotes are just too priceless, and they are quotes.

 

The buck stops where?

 

Amid calls for Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's removal over allegations of the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. military personnel, some conservative pundits have their own ideas of who is responsible. Media Matters for America has identified at least four groups who have been blamed: women, feminists, Muslims, and the academic left.

 

Women

 

Ann Coulter, right-wing pundit and syndicated columnist, said:

 

I think the other point that no one is making about the abuse photos is just the disproportionate number of women involved, including a girl general running the entire operation.

 

I mean, this is lesson, you know, one million and 47 on why women shouldn't be in the military. In addition to not being able to carry even a medium-sized backpack, women are too vicious.

[FOX News Channel, Hannity & Colmes, May 5]

 

Linda Chavez, syndicated columnist and FOX News Channel political analyst, wrote:

 

But one factor that may have contributed -- but which I doubt investigators will want to even consider -- is whether the presence of women in the unit actually encouraged more misbehavior, especially of the sexual nature that the pictures reveal.

[The Heritage Foundation's website Townhall.com and The Baltimore Sun, May 5]

 

Feminists

 

George Neumayr, managing editor of The American Spectator, wrote:

 

The image of that female guard, smoking away as she joins gleefully in the disgraceful melee like one of the guys, is a cultural outgrowth of a feminist culture which encourages female barbarians. GI Janes are kicking around patriarchal Muslims in Iraq? This is [Feminist Majority Foundation president] Eleanor Smeal's vision come to life. Had Thelma and Louise gone off to Iraq -- and sexually humiliated some of Saddam Hussein's soldiers as payback for abuse to Jessica Lynch a few cities back -- the radical feminists could make a sequel. ...

 

Feminists are good at creating a culture that produces "equal-opportunity abusers," Donnelly says. What happened at Abu Ghraib is also happening in feminist America, she adds, pointing to an Associated Press article from last month on a "disturbing trend around the country. Girls are turning to violence more often and with terrifying intensity." ...

 

Perhaps in the eyes of feminists this isn't a crisis but a potential social program and these girls deserve ROTC credits.

[The American Spectator, May 5]

 

Muslims

 

Cal Thomas, syndicated columnist and host of FOX News Channel's After Hours with Cal Thomas, wrote:

 

Some Arab commentators are repeating the myth that the West has, once again, humiliated Muslims. If there has been humiliation, it isn't the fault of the West. It is Muslims' fault. They took trillions of dollars in oil money, and instead of building a culture dedicated to elevating their people, including women, they have squandered it on agendas and adventures that had the opposite result.

[Townhall.com and The Monterey County Herald, May 5]

 

The Academic Left

 

James Taranto, editor of The Wall Street Journal's OpinionJournal.com, [wrote:

 

[T]he New York Times profiles some of the soldiers implicated in abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, and to be honest, they sound like a bunch of losers. ...

 

ncreasing the quality of military recruits would probably help avoid future Abu Ghraibs. One constructive step toward that end would be for elite universities to drop antimilitary policies, so that the military would have an easier time signing up the best and brightest young Americans.

 

Many academic institutions have barred ROTC or military recruiters from campus for left-wing political reasons--first as a protest against the Vietnam War, and later over the Clinton-era "don't ask, don't tell" law. Whatever the merits of these positions, it's time the academic left showed some patriotic responsibility and acknowledged that the defense of the country--which includes the defense of their own academic freedom--is more important than the issue du jour.

[OpinionJournal.com's "Best of the Web", May 6]

 

— S.M.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I think the other point that no one is making about the abuse photos is just the disproportionate number of women involved, including a girl general running the entire operation.

 

I mean, this is lesson, you know, one million and 47 on why women shouldn't be in the military. In addition to not being able to carry even a medium-sized backpack, women are too vicious.

 

That made me laugh...

[Guest Cerebus]

Um...none of those articles, except MAYBE Thomas's, actually BLAMES anyone exclusively (and Thomas's is a stupid article since its essentially a straw-man argument). And the lack of recruiting at universities IS a problem. I had to jump through hoops and call in favors to get my ROTC credits approved by NYU and even then I had to go to Brooklyn twice a week and back to actually attend ROTC b/c no one on the board wanted to reinstate it there.

[Guest thebigjig]

Rush Limbaugh apparently downplayed the incidents yesterday (shocking, I know) and said that it wasnt that big of a deal... nothing more than the average hazing incidents that occur everyday in this country... I'm listening to Diane Rheem right now on NPR, and everyday friday they have a reporter round table to discuss the events of the week with different journalists both conservatives and democrats, and even Jim Engle (sp?) from FOX news said "well, Rush should read the report" in reference to the 50+ page report that was released on the situation detailing the incidents

[Vyce 0]

Some Arab commentators are repeating the myth that the West has, once again, humiliated Muslims. If there has been humiliation, it isn't the fault of the West. It is Muslims' fault.

 

This I don't agree with.

 

They took trillions of dollars in oil money, and instead of building a culture dedicated to elevating their people, including women, they have squandered it on agendas and adventures that had the opposite result.

[Townhall.com and The Monterey County Herald, May 5]

 

This I do.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Rush Limbaugh apparently downplayed the incidents yesterday (shocking, I know) and said that it wasnt that big of a deal... nothing more than the average hazing incidents that occur everyday in this country...

I listened to Rush all day on Wednesday and on Thursday until the stupid Pirate game came on (I then switched to Rome). Most of what he was saying was in-the-big-scheme-of-things-this-isn't-as-bad-as-what-is-being-portrayed.

 

So what?

 

Oh, and it's Jim Angle, the eeeeeeeeevil reporter that published info on Dick Clarke that was "private" or something and everyone got their panties in a bunch over it (I can't remember, nor do I care, about the details...)

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

Ann Coulter, right-wing pundit and syndicated columnist, said:

 

I think the other point that no one is making about the abuse photos is just the disproportionate number of women involved, including a girl general running the entire operation.

 

I mean, this is lesson, you know, one million and 47 on why women shouldn't be in the military. In addition to not being able to carry even a medium-sized backpack, women are too vicious.

[FOX News Channel, Hannity & Colmes, May 5]

Concluded from first-hand experience, no doubt.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Ann Coulter, right-wing pundit and syndicated columnist, said:

In addition to not being able to carry even a medium-sized backpack, women are too vicious.

Oh please. Coulter could move mountains would the incredible force of her hot air. But at least she lends credibility to her own "women are too vicious" comment.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Also, here's some golden letters that showed up in the OMGBIAS SF Chronicle:

 

Editor -- Your editorial comment on the Saturday front page stated The Chronicle's decision to publish the abuse photos was because of the "public's right to know." Don't the editors and staff have the journalistic ability to delineate to us what atrocities took place without having to further endanger our other brave fighting men and women? Yes, we do have the right to know, but that does not mean there is a right to see.

 

Isn't the real reason for showing the photos the same as that of CBS: The Chronicle wishes harm to this administration and to damage the war effort at any cost. One can clearly see the glee in the editor's eye upon publishing the photos.

 

EDWIN STUECKER

 

Oakland

 

Editor -- Just as you had no problem in your shallow attempt to embarrass the Bush administration with pictures of the Iraqi prisoners ("Images of abuse at U.S. hands stir world furor,'' May 1), I have no problem with how they are being treated. War is not a pleasant thing and I think anything we can do to discourage the enemy from fighting is a good thing to do.

 

We are not fighting Iraq. We are fighting a vicious Islamic radical group whose stated goal is to kill infidels wherever they are and to all but enslave the women. As long as you claim you are being responsible by publishing such pictures, why don't you also publish some pictures of Saddam Hussein's torture chambers and explain to your latte-sipping liberal readers just what went on in those places?

 

TOM MARTIN

 

Sunnyvale

 

Gotta love that second one. Images of torture will make Iraqis SCARED and LESS likely to fight us. In no way could it incite them into violence.

[Guest MikeSC]

Also, here's some golden letters that showed up in the OMGBIAS SF Chronicle:

 

Editor -- Your editorial comment on the Saturday front page stated The Chronicle's decision to publish the abuse photos was because of the "public's right to know." Don't the editors and staff have the journalistic ability to delineate to us what atrocities took place without having to further endanger our other brave fighting men and women? Yes, we do have the right to know, but that does not mean there is a right to see.

 

Isn't the real reason for showing the photos the same as that of CBS: The Chronicle wishes harm to this administration and to damage the war effort at any cost. One can clearly see the glee in the editor's eye upon publishing the photos.

 

EDWIN STUECKER

 

Oakland

 

Editor -- Just as you had no problem in your shallow attempt to embarrass the Bush administration with pictures of the Iraqi prisoners ("Images of abuse at U.S. hands stir world furor,'' May 1), I have no problem with how they are being treated. War is not a pleasant thing and I think anything we can do to discourage the enemy from fighting is a good thing to do.

 

We are not fighting Iraq. We are fighting a vicious Islamic radical group whose stated goal is to kill infidels wherever they are and to all but enslave the women. As long as you claim you are being responsible by publishing such pictures, why don't you also publish some pictures of Saddam Hussein's torture chambers and explain to your latte-sipping liberal readers just what went on in those places?

 

TOM MARTIN

 

Sunnyvale

 

Gotta love that second one. Images of torture will make Iraqis SCARED and LESS likely to fight us. In no way could it incite them into violence.

Heck, if violence won't deter them, maybe humiliation is the trick. Heck, have a pic of a female solider pissing on a detainee and broadcast it on Al Jazeera. Embarrass the morons.

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Let's ask ourselves: Everytime we've seen pictures of Americans captured, being dragged around, guns held to their head, etc, has it made us fight LESS?

 

No, actually it makes us mad and want to "get them" even more.

[Firestarter 0]

Gotta agree with every word in those two letters. Sorry, JotW - I know you were trying to make the authors look dumb, but all you accomplished was to make them look right. Terrorists were humiliated, boo frickin' hoo. Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage, so the decent Iraqis can get on with their lives and our soldiers can come home.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Gotta agree with every word in those two letters. Sorry, JotW - I know you were trying to make the authors look dumb, but all you accomplished was to make them look right. Terrorists were humiliated, boo frickin' hoo. Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage, so the decent Iraqis can get on with their lives and our soldiers can come home.

And you can prove that every single person in those photos were terrorists?

[Guest thebigjig]

Gotta agree with every word in those two letters. Sorry, JotW - I know you were trying to make the authors look dumb, but all you accomplished was to make them look right. Terrorists were humiliated, boo frickin' hoo. Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage, so the decent Iraqis can get on with their lives and our soldiers can come home.

 

are you suggesting that we stoop to their level to solve things?

[snuffbox 0]

Gotta agree with every word in those two letters. Sorry, JotW - I know you were trying to make the authors look dumb, but all you accomplished was to make them look right. Terrorists were humiliated, boo frickin' hoo. Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage, so the decent Iraqis can get on with their lives and our soldiers can come home.

A disturbing example of an Al Qeada thought process....

[Guest thebigjig]

Gotta agree with every word in those two letters. Sorry, JotW - I know you were trying to make the authors look dumb, but all you accomplished was to make them look right. Terrorists were humiliated, boo frickin' hoo. Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage, so the decent Iraqis can get on with their lives and our soldiers can come home.

A disturbing example of an Al Qeada thought process....

I'm hoping that his comment was just an outburn of ultra conservative ignorance and stupidity... in any case, I'm very happy he's not running the country

[Guest MikeSC]

Gotta agree with every word in those two letters. Sorry, JotW - I know you were trying to make the authors look dumb, but all you accomplished was to make them look right. Terrorists were humiliated, boo frickin' hoo. Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage, so the decent Iraqis can get on with their lives and our soldiers can come home.

And you can prove that every single person in those photos were terrorists?

Zorin --- the military lacks the time or desire to capture and hold Iraqis without reason.

A disturbing example of an Al Qeada thought process....

Nah, if she advocated plowing planes into buildings of theirs, you might have a point. If she advocated taking young kids and making them wear bombs, you might have a point.

 

This is WAR. War ISN'T NICE. War ISN'T FRIENDLY.

 

And, it's not like they had ANY problems showing burned and scarred US contractors being dragged down the streets. Their hypocritical caterwauling would be sad is so many saps didn't buy it.

I'm hoping that his comment was just an outburn of ultra conservative ignorance and stupidity... in any case, I'm very happy he's not running the country

Yes, snuffy's comment WAS ignorant and stupid --- but he's not a conservative, last time I checked.

-=Mike

[Zorin Industries 0]

Gotta agree with every word in those two letters. Sorry, JotW - I know you were trying to make the authors look dumb, but all you accomplished was to make them look right. Terrorists were humiliated, boo frickin' hoo. Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage, so the decent Iraqis can get on with their lives and our soldiers can come home.

And you can prove that every single person in those photos were terrorists?

Zorin --- the military lacks the time or desire to capture and hold Iraqis without reason.

[

I realise that, i was replying to Marneys assumption that they were terrorists

[snuffbox 0]

Gotta agree with every word in those two letters. Sorry, JotW - I know you were trying to make the authors look dumb, but all you accomplished was to make them look right. Terrorists were humiliated, boo frickin' hoo. Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage, so the decent Iraqis can get on with their lives and our soldiers can come home.

A disturbing example of an Al Qeada thought process....

I'm hoping that his comment was just an outburn of ultra conservative ignorance and stupidity... in any case, I'm very happy he's not running the country

Al Qeada wants to kill everybody in disagreement with them....Terrorism....

 

Marney here suggests "Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage".....

 

Call me an idiot liberal, but I just dont see much of a difference in the brain quality level...

 

Heck, Sec. Rumsfeld himself spent a couple hours in serious public discussion and heavily apologized for these actions. Americans and our leaders have shown considerable emotional depth and concern about this. I would certainly hope that the people here that support the President and his Cabinet, and their policies, would display the same degree of concern, embarrassment, class, and responsibilty.

 

Terrorism does not eradicate terrorism.

[C Dubya 04 0]

Zorin --- the military lacks the time or desire to capture and hold Iraqis without reason.

I actually think that it's the other way. The military does not have the time to make sure everyone they detain is a threat. But that's not necessaryily an evil thing, as long as shit like this doesn't happen to those people.

[Guest MikeSC]

Zorin --- the military lacks the time or desire to capture and hold Iraqis without reason.

I actually think that it's the other way. The military does not have the time to make sure everyone they detain is a threat. But that's not necessaryily an evil thing, as long as shit like this doesn't happen to those people.

They aren't going to mess with anybody unless they're under attack.

 

People have this belief that the military just LOVES killing people. Given the choice, most military people would prefer to never have to be used.

-=Mike

...Not attackin' ya at all, C Dub

[Guest reshad974]

Torture and abuse has been an integral part of Iraq's culture and tradition for years (most notably under Saddam Hussein). The American are just paying respect to that tradition so that the move to democraty isn't too hard for the people from Iraq.

[Guest MikeSC]

Torture and abuse has been an integral part of Iraq's culture and tradition for years (most notably under Saddam Hussein). The American are just paying respect to that tradition so that the move to democraty isn't too hard for the people from Iraq.

Thing is, this isn't torture. This barely qualifies as abuse.

 

BTW, LOVE the pic --- but I'm betting you'll be forced to change it soon.

-=Mike

[C Dubya 04 0]

Zorin --- the military lacks the time or desire to capture and hold Iraqis without reason.

I actually think that it's the other way. The military does not have the time to make sure everyone they detain is a threat. But that's not necessaryily an evil thing, as long as shit like this doesn't happen to those people.

They aren't going to mess with anybody unless they're under attack.

 

People have this belief that the military just LOVES killing people. Given the choice, most military people would prefer to never have to be used.

-=Mike

...Not attackin' ya at all, C Dub

I don't think that the military kills without reason, but I assume they'll take prisoner anyone they suspect could cause issues and rightfully so.

[Guest thebigjig]

Torture and abuse has been an integral part of Iraq's culture and tradition for years (most notably under Saddam Hussein). The American are just paying respect to that tradition so that the move to democraty isn't too hard for the people from Iraq.

Thing is, this isn't torture. This barely qualifies as abuse.

 

BTW, LOVE the pic --- but I'm betting you'll be forced to change it soon.

-=Mike

barely qualifies as abuse?? Jesus... I'm speechless

[Guest Crazy Dan]

Well I understand that they want to kill us. But we must never sink to a level that is well beneath the USA. We are supposed to be the civilized ones. Regardless if the prisoners are scum, what those prisoners were put through was disgracefull. And a complete violation of the Geneva Accords. And if this had happened to Americans, in the same way that these prisoners were put through, many would be up in arms. So we must never use a double standard. When an enemy combatant is captured, he does lose many rights of course, but no one should be put through that. And shame on all those morons who thought that this would be a funny thing to do. You are US military, not bullies. And I do hope everyone involved gets court martialed for their disgracefull actions.

 

And yes I am aware they are prisoners, and this is a war that we are fighting, but our soldiers should show that they are above doing the things which have unfortunately taken place. You don't have to like who you capture. Dispise them for all I care, but no one should ever sink to a level like that. The thing that angers me the most is the forced sodomy on one of the prisoners. That was the most disgracefull act.

 

When stuff like this happens, it gets used against us, creating more havoc in a area where we are trying to help. The last thing we need is this to be used a recruiting tool for the terrorists. If we can show that we treat our captives with a little diginity, like allowing them to pray for example, shows that we are above such disgracefull actions.

 

And the last thing I want is for anyone to be killed. But when your enemy is using this to show that we are the Devil, well more bloodshed will be spilled, on both sides. And the last thing we need is for this to become a drawn out mess. And no I don't think this is a reflection on our military as a whole, but funny how sometimes the actions of a few can cause everyone to brand everyone the same.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Now shoot them, put the next bunch on dog leashes as well, and shoot them too. Throw them in the emptied mass graves they used to dump other people in and fill it up with the rest of that godforsaken country's human sewage, so the decent Iraqis can get on with their lives and our soldiers can come home.

Hi. We're the United States. We don't act like total barbarians and we still manage to win, too. Which really gets the goat of all the barbarian states, you know.

[Firestarter 0]

Humiliating evil people isn't barbaric. We've done it before and we'll do it again. The soldiers who set up and took those photographs deserve decorations, not court-martials. And the next time we do this, let's televise it live.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Have some respect for your country. Your fathers and forefathers fought wars with the whole country at stake, and they didn't resort to human pyramids and involuntary assraping to do it.

 

The reason for treaties like Geneva is because once one country starts misbehaving, unless everyone sticks to the plan (like we ought to) then it just goes downhill from there with each side trying to trump one another in how much they can embarass and humiliate the other. And then we're not far from heads on pikes.

[Firestarter 0]

we're not far from heads on pikes

Oh goodie.