What are the causes of prisoner abuse in Iraq?

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Also, Marney is worse than the terrorists for being a Shania Twain fan. Yeesh.

Interesting.

 

I'm sure there are reasons for her being a fan other than Twain's music...

That's like excusing terrorism because you see a hot middle eastern chick.

[Guest MikeSC]

Incorrect. The Geneva convention DOES apply to them.

No command structure. No uniforms. Willing to hide out amongst the populace. No gov't that signed them.

 

Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself.

There you go again, condoning the torture of Iraqi detainees

Not condoning --- not CARING.

Get it clear..they were not all terrorists. The vast majority were regular Iraqi's picked up and check points under suspicion and general law breakers such as thiefs. Even if they were ALL terrorists it is still NO excuse to subject them to physical and sexual abuse. We're the good guys. We're the democracy. We're the freedom.

I DO NOT CARE if they are all tortured.

 

I do not care one tiny iota.

 

You wish to fight for a tyrant --- then feel free. Better pray you win.

Even the man that can do no wrong, Bush, has shown his disgust at the torture.

Ah, the usual bilge from the left. Whatever.

There is a HUGE difference between making fun of the South, the average angry southern white male attitude and using the ridiculously short sighted "lets go kill everyone over there, fuck 'em" Anne Coulter logic

Yes, you AGREE with one of them and not the other.

 

We got that.

My "ignorant" poking fun of hicks, is a little different than an attitude that would, if implemented by the administration, cause horrific repercussions

Bush expresses outrage.

 

You still call Southerners "hicks".

 

I take your condemnation seriously. Honestly.

-=Mike

[Ripper 0]

Incorrect. The Geneva convention DOES apply to them.

No command structure. No uniforms. Willing to hide out amongst the populace. No gov't that signed them.

 

Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself.

There you go again, condoning the torture of Iraqi detainees

Not condoning --- not CARING.

Get it clear..they were not all terrorists. The vast majority were regular Iraqi's picked up and check points under suspicion and general law breakers such as thiefs. Even if they were ALL terrorists it is still NO excuse to subject them to physical and sexual abuse. We're the good guys. We're the democracy. We're the freedom.

I DO NOT CARE if they are all tortured.

 

I do not care one tiny iota.

 

You wish to fight for a tyrant --- then feel free. Better pray you win.

Even the man that can do no wrong, Bush, has shown his disgust at the torture.

Ah, the usual bilge from the left. Whatever.

There is a HUGE difference between making fun of the South, the average angry southern white male attitude and using the ridiculously short sighted "lets go kill everyone over there, fuck 'em" Anne Coulter logic

Yes, you AGREE with one of them and not the other.

 

We got that.

My "ignorant" poking fun of hicks, is a little different than an attitude that would, if implemented by the administration, cause horrific repercussions

Bush expresses outrage.

 

You still call Southerners "hicks".

 

I take your condemnation seriously. Honestly.

-=Mike

Thank god you will never be in charge of anything that could cause reprecussions in my life.

 

Goddamn.

[Guest hunger4unger]

Incorrect. The Geneva convention DOES apply to them.

No command structure. No uniforms. Willing to hide out amongst the populace. No gov't that signed them.

 

Seriously, stop embarrassing yourself.

There you go again, condoning the torture of Iraqi detainees

Not condoning --- not CARING.

Get it clear..they were not all terrorists. The vast majority were regular Iraqi's picked up and check points under suspicion and general law breakers such as thiefs. Even if they were ALL terrorists it is still NO excuse to subject them to physical and sexual abuse. We're the good guys. We're the democracy. We're the freedom.

I DO NOT CARE if they are all tortured.

 

I do not care one tiny iota.

 

You wish to fight for a tyrant --- then feel free. Better pray you win.

Even the man that can do no wrong, Bush, has shown his disgust at the torture.

Ah, the usual bilge from the left. Whatever.

There is a HUGE difference between making fun of the South, the average angry southern white male attitude and using the ridiculously short sighted "lets go kill everyone over there, fuck 'em" Anne Coulter logic

Yes, you AGREE with one of them and not the other.

 

We got that.

My "ignorant" poking fun of hicks, is a little different than an attitude that would, if implemented by the administration, cause horrific repercussions

Bush expresses outrage.

 

You still call Southerners "hicks".

 

I take your condemnation seriously. Honestly.

-=Mike

Understand something really, really simple. THE GENEVA CONVENTION APPLIES. It doesn't MATTER that Iraqi's have little or no regard for it - it APPLIES to COALITION FORCES.

 

"Usual bilge from the left" must translate into "ok, you got me there".

[Guest MikeSC]

Thank god you will never be in charge of anything that could cause reprecussions in my life.

 

Goddamn.

And you seem to ignore that the prisoners who were so "abused" did A LOT to cause the problems. Rioting. Attacking guards. Attempting to kill them.

 

The guards showed remarkable restraint.

 

Now, maybe they should do what those morons' religious leades do and start lopping off heads.

Understand something really, really simple. THE GENEVA CONVENTION APPLIES.

It doesn't MATTER that Iraqi's have little or no regard for it - it APPLIES to COALITION FORCES.

 

"Usual bilge from the left" must translate into "ok, you got me there".

No, it does not apply to treatment of the Iraqis at all.

 

You REALLY are uneducated about this.

-=Mike

[C Dubya 04 0]

Okay, I just looked up the Geneva Convention based on this ongoing battle of wits between Unger and MikeSC and well I gotta admit, I have no clue if it applies or not. It seems to basically apply to anyone who has ever touched a gun, based on the 150 articles attached.

[Guest MikeSC]

Real quick:

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

 

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

 

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

 

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

 

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

 

© That of carrying arms openly;

 

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

 

4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

 

5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

 

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

 

B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:

 

1. Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

 

2. The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.

 

C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention.

 

Article 5

 

The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

They do not BEGIN to hit the requirements.

 

They definitely miss #1 - 3 without coming CLOSE. There is no evidence to indicate that they are #4 or #5. They DEFINITELY don't hit #6. And since these groups have no diplomatic ties to anybody, they don't qualify for either of section B's provisions.

-=Mike

[Guest hunger4unger]

Thank god you will never be in charge of anything that could cause reprecussions in my life. 

 

Goddamn.

And you seem to ignore that the prisoners who were so "abused" did A LOT to cause the problems. Rioting. Attacking guards. Attempting to kill them.

 

The guards showed remarkable restraint.

 

Now, maybe they should do what those morons' religious leades do and start lopping off heads.

Understand something really, really simple. THE GENEVA CONVENTION APPLIES.

It doesn't MATTER that Iraqi's have little or no regard for it - it APPLIES to COALITION FORCES.

 

"Usual bilge from the left" must translate into "ok, you got me there".

No, it does not apply to treatment of the Iraqis at all.

 

You REALLY are uneducated about this.

-=Mike

Since when did the torture victims attempt to riot and attack guards!?

 

I am not naive enough to think that the prisoners weren't violent in anyway but what those soldiers did was disgusting.

 

What was the scenario Mike...POW A and POW B attacked a guard so we made POW A jack off into POW B's mouth and took photos as a way to calm them down?

 

IF and that's a BIG "IF", the POW's were violent then sure, give them a little beating that's fine..but what the soldiers did was torture and totally unjustified by any stretch of the imagination.

[Guest Cerebus]

From the Taguba Report:

 

34. (U) The following riots, escapes, and shootings have been documented and reported to this Investigation Team.

 

....

 

d. (U) 13 June 03- Escape and recapture of detainee # 8968 and the shooting of eight detainees at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) (320th MP Battalion).

 

e. (U) 05 November 03- Escape of detainees # 9877 and # 10739 from Abu Ghraib (320th MP Battalion).

 

f. (U) 07 November 03- Escape of detainee # 14239 from Abu Ghraib (320th MP Battalion).

 

g. (U) 08 November 03- Escape of detainees # 115089, # 151623, # 151624, # 116734, # 116735, and # 116738 from Abu Ghraib (320th MP Battalion).

 

h. (U) 24 November 03- Riot and shooting of 12 detainees # 150216, #150894, #153096, 153165, #153169, #116361, #153399, #20257, #150348, #152616, #116146, and #152156 at Abu Ghraib(320th MP Battalion).

 

i. (U) 24 November 03- Shooting of detainee at Abu Ghraib(320th MP Battalion).

 

j. (U) 13 December 03- Shooting by non-lethal means into crowd at Abu Ghraib(320th MP Battalion).

 

k. (U) 13 December 03- Shooting by non-lethal means into crowd at Abu Ghraib(320th MP Battalion).

 

l. (U) 13 December 03- Shooting by non-lethal means into crowd at Abu Ghraib(320th MP Battalion).

 

m. (U) 17 December 03- Shooting by non-lethal means of detainee from Abu Ghraib(320th MP Battalion).

 

....

 

p. (U) 14 January 04- Escape of detainee #12436 and missing Iraqi guard from Hard-Site, Abu Ghraib (320th MP Battalion).

 

Edit: For the sake of space, I've deleted all the details. You can read it yourself if you like. (Part two, section 34)

[Guest hunger4unger]

So because some escaped we decided to punish them by torturing them!? ANYONE is going to attempt to escape prison.

[Guest Cerebus]

Since when did the torture victims attempt to riot and attack guards!?

 

IF and that's a BIG "IF", the POW's were violent...

This is what I was responding to, maybe I should have made that more clear.

[justsoyouknow 0]

So because some escaped we decided to punish them by torturing them!? ANYONE is going to attempt to escape prison.

Yes, paying for your crimes is overrated anyways.

[Guest hunger4unger]

Okie dokie. You haven't stated whether you think that the abuse was justified or not? As I stated above, I understand that SOME physical force would be involved in detaining prisoners...it's when the troops moved onto torture and sexual humiliation it kinda became a problem for me.

[justsoyouknow 0]

It's funny...their women step out of line, they slap them around, no one bats an eye. They step out of line, we slap them around, everyone has an aneurism.

[Guest Brian]

The thing is, WE have no idea exactly who's who and how widespread the torture (or abuse) is among prisoners. Or even among guards. We may have everything documented, we may just have a small sampling of dumbasses. You have stories likefrom the BBC that are just reporting one guys episode, where his punishment seemed way out of hand. You have mistakes of arrests like those reported in the Arizona Daily Star. You have only a single percent of the photos being published in the Washington Post. The president right now is just getting wind of these things. It could be worse, and it could be just a small group.

 

Cerebus, was (h) a lethal shooting?

[Guest hunger4unger]

It's funny...their women step out of line, they slap them around, no one bats an eye. They step out of line, we slap them around, everyone has an aneurism.

It's not a "slap"..they KILLED one guy, froze his body and stuck an IV in his arm to make it look like natural causes. They forced others to commit homosexual acts.

[justsoyouknow 0]

Again...over in that part of the world, I wouldn't be surprised if being killed was considered "natural causes". It all boils down to this: if someone tried to kill you, but you captured him, would you sit there and say, "Wow, I'm going to be the bigger person here and be nice to you, and bring you tea and crumpets, and allow you to fuck my sister, because you don't deserve to have the same done to you," or would you go apeshit? Personally, if someone was trying to kill me, and they ended up being killed, I suppose that would be called "vengeance".

[Guest hunger4unger]

The vast majority of the POW's weren't terrorists...AND..it is not down to troops on the ground as to who should or shouldn't be murdered in prison. We don't murder people....we bring justice and that is because we are a democracy.

[Guest MikeSC]

Since when did the torture victims attempt to riot and attack guards!?

You didn't hear the stories of problems with prisoners at Abu Gharib back last year? I remember riot stories. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=...ib+prison+riots

 

Read up as much as you wish.

I am not naive enough to think that the prisoners weren't violent in anyway but what those soldiers did was disgusting.

 

What was the scenario Mike...POW A and POW B attacked a guard so we made POW A jack off into POW B's mouth and took photos as a way to calm them down?

No, POW A & B rioted and attacked guards repeatedly. Guards got sick of it and rather than kill them --- they humiliated them.

IF and that's a BIG "IF", the POW's were violent then sure, give them a little beating that's fine..but what the soldiers did was torture and totally unjustified by any stretch of the imagination.

The soldiers WERE attacked --- for a long while --- and they decided to forcefully inform the prisoners that further disruptions would not be tolerated.

So because some escaped we decided to punish them by torturing them!? ANYONE is going to attempt to escape prison.

And since the escapees will quickly start shooting at Americans, it's in our best interests to make damned sure they aren't quite up to snuff.

The vast majority of the POW's weren't terrorists...AND..it is not down to troops on the ground as to who should or shouldn't be murdered in prison. We don't murder people....we bring justice and that is because we are a democracy.

Our GOAL is to bring ORDER. Justice will have to wait its turn.

-=Mike

[Guest Cerebus]

Why should I? I was responding to your comment as I stated before. And no, in no way shape or form do I think this is justified. Period.

[Guest Cerebus]

Cerebus, was (h) a lethal shooting?

Here it is in full.

 

h.      (U) 24 November 03- Riot and shooting of 12 detainees # 150216, #150894, #153096, 153165, #153169, #116361, #153399, #20257, #150348, #152616, #116146, and #152156 at Abu Ghraib(320th MP Battalion).   Several detainees allegedly began to riot at about 1300 in all of the compounds at the Ganci encampment.  This resulted in the shooting deaths of 3 detainees, 9 wounded detainees, and 9 injured US Soldiers.    A 15-6 investigation by COL Bruce Falcone (220th MP Brigade, Deputy Commander) concluded that the detainees rioted in protest of their living conditions, that the riot turned violent, the use of non-lethal force was ineffective, and, after the 320th MP Battalion CDR executed “Golden Spike,” the emergency containment plan, the use of deadly force was authorized.  Contributing factors were lack of comprehensive training of guards, poor or non-existent SOPs, no formal guard-mount conducted prior to shift, no rehearsals or ongoing training, the mix of less than lethal rounds with lethal rounds in weapons, no AARs being conducted after incidents, ROE not posted and not understood, overcrowding, uniforms not standardized, and poor communication between the command and Soldiers.  (ANNEX 8)

 

And for the record, while I wasn't an MP/MA, I honestly don't think I have ever heard of as a more FUBAR command as the 800th MP Brigade, partly demonstrated in the above quote. Simply amazing.

[Guest hunger4unger]

Since when did the torture victims attempt to riot and attack guards!?

You didn't hear the stories of problems with prisoners at Abu Gharib back last year? I remember riot stories. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=...ib+prison+riots

 

Read up as much as you wish.

I am not naive enough to think that the prisoners weren't violent in anyway but what those soldiers did was disgusting.

 

What was the scenario Mike...POW A and POW B attacked a guard so we made POW A jack off into POW B's mouth and took photos as a way to calm them down?

No, POW A & B rioted and attacked guards repeatedly. Guards got sick of it and rather than kill them --- they humiliated them.

IF and that's a BIG "IF", the POW's were violent then sure, give them a little beating that's fine..but what the soldiers did was torture and totally unjustified by any stretch of the imagination.

The soldiers WERE attacked --- for a long while --- and they decided to forcefully inform the prisoners that further disruptions would not be tolerated.

So because some escaped we decided to punish them by torturing them!? ANYONE is going to attempt to escape prison.

And since the escapees will quickly start shooting at Americans, it's in our best interests to make damned sure they aren't quite up to snuff.

The vast majority of the POW's weren't terrorists...AND..it is not down to troops on the ground as to who should or shouldn't be murdered in prison. We don't murder people....we bring justice and that is because we are a democracy.

Our GOAL is to bring ORDER. Justice will have to wait its turn.

-=Mike

Ok, they rioted. I wasn't aware, now I am. Still doesn't excuse killing them and sexually abusing them.

 

The guards had no right to "kill them" or humiliate them...I am not saying tey should go unpunished..individual trials would have brought justice and possibly life imprisonment where necessary.

 

The goal may be to bring order but carrying out acts of torture doesn't ecaclt help in the quest to bring order to Iraq. It incites hatred.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Ok, they rioted. I wasn't aware, now I am. Still doesn't excuse killing them and sexually abusing them.

Uh, yeah it does.

 

If prisoners are rioting, and threatening me and my troops with bodily harm or even death, shoot those fuckers.

 

Now for me putting my winky in a terrorist's cornhole, I think we are in agreement with this one...

[Guest MikeSC]

Ok, they rioted. I wasn't aware, now I am. Still doesn't excuse killing them and sexually abusing them.

Uh, yeah it does.

 

If prisoners are rioting, and threatening me and my troops with bodily harm or even death, shoot those fuckers.

 

Now for me putting my winky in a terrorist's cornhole, I think we are in agreement with this one...

Heck, I still say get video of a female soldier just beating the living crap out of some prisoners and broadcast it ALL OVER the Middle East.

 

"Yeah, our WOMEN can kick your asses".

 

I can only imagine how upset they'd get --- and I'd LOVE it!

-=Mike

[teke184 0]

Ok, they rioted. I wasn't aware, now I am. Still doesn't excuse killing them and sexually abusing them.

Uh, yeah it does.

 

If prisoners are rioting, and threatening me and my troops with bodily harm or even death, shoot those fuckers.

 

Now for me putting my winky in a terrorist's cornhole, I think we are in agreement with this one...

Heck, I still say get video of a female soldier just beating the living crap out of some prisoners and broadcast it ALL OVER the Middle East.

 

"Yeah, our WOMEN can kick your asses".

 

I can only imagine how upset they'd get --- and I'd LOVE it!

-=Mike

 

Mike, I think that's partly why Israel's armed forces have been co-ed for so long...

[Guest MikeSC]

Ok, they rioted. I wasn't aware, now I am. Still doesn't excuse killing them and sexually abusing them.

Uh, yeah it does.

 

If prisoners are rioting, and threatening me and my troops with bodily harm or even death, shoot those fuckers.

 

Now for me putting my winky in a terrorist's cornhole, I think we are in agreement with this one...

Heck, I still say get video of a female soldier just beating the living crap out of some prisoners and broadcast it ALL OVER the Middle East.

 

"Yeah, our WOMEN can kick your asses".

 

I can only imagine how upset they'd get --- and I'd LOVE it!

-=Mike

 

Mike, I think that's partly why Israel's armed forces have been co-ed for so long...

Then that is great. Israel, an army with GIRLS, is able to just beat the living crap out of ANY military in that cess pool.

-=Mike

[Styles 0]

Israeli intelligence? Give me a break.

Wow, did I call this one or what?

[Guest MikeSC]

Israeli intelligence? Give me a break.

Wow, did I call this one or what?

Our little cliche is growing up, huh Slapnuts?

 

Hunger will soon be a stereotype.

-=Mike

[Vyce 0]

Heck, I still say get video of a female soldier just beating the living crap out of some prisoners and broadcast it ALL OVER the Middle East.

 

"Yeah, our WOMEN can kick your asses".

 

I can only imagine how upset they'd get --- and I'd LOVE it!

 

It does show them something that they've likely never seen before - women who don't cower in fear of their raised fist.

[Guest MikeSC]

Heck, I still say get video of a female soldier just beating the living crap out of some prisoners and broadcast it ALL OVER the Middle East.

 

"Yeah, our WOMEN can kick your asses".

 

I can only imagine how upset they'd get --- and I'd LOVE it!

 

It does show them something that they've likely never seen before - women who don't cower in fear of their raised fist.

Heck, have the inmates be forced to sodomize each other --- than kill both prisoners for the crime of being raped.

 

Let them see how WOMEN live over there.

-=Mike