Rumsfeld apologies

[Vanhalen 0]

Yep, despite knowing about these abuse cases and 29 unlawful murders since JULY, hes still failing to resign, which is probably the last thing Bush needs, If I were Bush, I would sack him, if he doesnt resign in the next few days, as he will just cause him more harm then good

 

Rumsfeld 'deeply' sorry for Iraq abuse

Rumsfeld joined the president in deploring the Iraqi prisoners' humiliation

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has offered his "deepest apologies" to Iraqi inmates mistreated by US troops.

Mr Rumsfeld, who is facing calls for his resignation, told Congress he bore responsibility on the issue.

"All the facts... are not yet in hand," Mr Rumsfeld said, ordering an inquiry into the abuse which was to come up with a report within 45 days.

Senator John Warner opened the session saying the issue had done irreparable damage to US foreign policy.

He said the purpose of the committee hearing was to find out why Congress was not kept informed when senators and congressmen were receiving endless calls to find out what was going on.

President George W Bush has said he is "sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners" in US custody.

Mr Rumsfeld should have told him about the abuse earlier, he said on Thursday.

There have been calls for Mr Rumsfeld to be sacked, but the president said his defence secretary was an important part of the Cabinet and would remain in his post.

The BBC's Justin Webb in Washington says Mr Rumsfeld's abrasive style has won him many enemies on Capitol Hill.

[Mr Rumsfeld] has served our nation well... He is an important part of my Cabinet and he'll stay in my Cabinet

President Bush

The testimony comes as a new opinion poll suggests 62% of Americans are dissatisfied with the way things are going in their country - the highest in eight years.

According to the Gallup poll of 1,000 Americans, only 49% thought Mr Bush was doing his job well - 48% thought he was not.

On Iraq, 55% disapproved of the president's performance, and 42% agreed with it.

Resignation calls

Mr Bush's apology on Thursday came after talks with Jordan's King Abdullah.

Three main prisons - Abu Ghraib and Camp Cropper in west Baghdad; Camp Bucca, near Umm Qasr - hold inmates for extended periods

Almost all inmates are "security internees"- suspected of posing a threat to the coalition

Chaos at Abu Ghraib prison

Inmate: 'Treated like dogs'

Challenged on the position of Mr Rumsfeld, Mr Bush said: "I told him I should have known about the pictures and the report" on the affair by the Pentagon, completed two months ago.

Mr Bush has said he only realised the extent of the abuse when he saw the pictures on television.

However, the International Committee of the Red Cross has said it passed a report on conditions at Abu Ghraib prison to US authorities in February.

The ICRC's report, leaked to the Wall Street Journal, says the ill-treatment of Iraqi inmates went beyond exceptional cases - it was a practice widely tolerated.

On Mr Rumsfeld, Mr Bush insisted that he still supported him as someone who "has served our nation well. He is an important part of my Cabinet and he'll stay in my Cabinet".

There have been more calls for Mr Rumsfeld's resignation from senior Democrat figures.

On the campaign trail in California, presumptive Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry said he had called on Mr Rumsfeld to quit "months ago" because of miscalculations on Iraq.

Mr Kerry said the abuse scandal only "compounds" the evidence for him to step down.

"I think he should have and I think he should now," Mr Kerry said, according to Reuters news agency.

Nancy Pelosi, the most senior Democrat in the House of Representatives, said Mr Rumsfeld had been engaged in a "cover-up" of the allegations of abuse and should resign.

Tom Harkin also called for him to go, the first member of the US Senate to do so.

[Firestarter 0]

Inmate: 'Treated like dogs'

Well now, that's a step up from the way you treat your women, isn't it? Be grateful.

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

Rumsfeld carried himself pretty well from what I watched.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Good God, this whole thing is a joke.

 

Resign? N*gga please.

 

Man, if the Nazis would have tried to take over the world 60 years after their original attempt, they'd win hands-down. We're such a bunch of wimps -- what happened?...

[Firestarter 0]

Good God, this whole thing is a joke... if the Nazis would have tried to take over the world 60 years after their original attempt, they'd win hands-down

Indeed. Even the right-wing pundits are getting all teary-eyed over this storm in a teacup. "Unjustifiable... shameful... terrible tragedy... atrocity." Atrocity? This isn't an atrocity. The Bataan Death March was an atrocity. 9/11 was an atrocity. The Iran-Iraq war was an atrocity, and oh yes, the genocide of the Kurds was an atrocity. This is not. This isn't even important enough to warrant more than one and a half column inches over two days. Arab terrorists were "shamed" and "dishonoured?" Good work well done, let's move on.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I agree with some of the thinking about how these pictures could hurt the military because it will fan the flames of those who already hates us, but this is just overkill.

 

My only hope is that we didn't take these pics during RAMADAN -- that would REALLY offend the terrorists.

 

(Hmm, perhaps if we humiliate the terrorists, their self-esteem will be ruined and they won't attack the troops because they won't think they can do a good job...)

[Vanhalen 0]

I wasnt calling for his resignation, I just think that if he doesnt resign, then it will hurt Bush, much like Neil Hamilton did to john Major at the 97 Election

[Guest MikeSC]

Good God, this whole thing is a joke... if the Nazis would have tried to take over the world 60 years after their original attempt, they'd win hands-down

Indeed. Even the right-wing pundits are getting all teary-eyed over this storm in a teacup. "Unjustifiable... shameful... terrible tragedy... atrocity." Atrocity? This isn't an atrocity. The Bataan Death March was an atrocity. 9/11 was an atrocity. The Iran-Iraq war was an atrocity, and oh yes, the genocide of the Kurds was an atrocity. This is not. This isn't even important enough to warrant more than one and a half column inches over two days. Arab terrorists were "shamed" and "dishonoured?" Good work well done, let's move on.

I dunno. Did you see that woman's SHOES? Tragic!

 

Ya know, since the fear of death is apparently not enough to stop terrorism, perhaps threatening to humiliate prisoners might be a nice next step.

 

I just have a hard time feeling bad for Arab prisoners being photographed in "humiliating" poses when OUR troops, in EVERY DAMNED WAR WE'VE FOUGHT IN THE PAST CENTURY, have been treated much, much worse.

 

If we do live dissections or intentionally give them the bubonic plague, then we will have crossed that "atrocity" plateau. Right now, Rush is right --- I've known frat boys who went through worse as part of their initiation.

 

Oh, and as I also heard on Rush yesterday, John Kerry said HE committed atrocities in Vietnam. Isn't it a bit much for a man who admitted to committing atrocities far worse than this to complain?

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I wasnt calling for his resignation, I just think that if he doesnt resign, then it will hurt Bush, much like Neil Hamilton did to john Major at the 97 Election

I'm not bitching about you -- just about the story in general.

 

I WILL bitch about you in regards to the way you present these stories. They're hard to read.

 

Oh, and speaking about being humiliated -- how about all those hostages that get pimpled on Arab TV? I mean, those blindfolds that are put on them by the terrorists don't even match the outfit the hostage is wearing. I know I'd be embarassed wearing that color combination...

[snuffbox 0]

"It is possible" - Rumsfeld answering a question as to whether he would resign to prove a point that Americans are about international democracy, not the oppostite thereof

 

Its positive to see that the President and Cabinet are treating this situation with much more maturity, respect, and disgust than the miles-away-zealots on this messageboard.

[Guest MikeSC]

"It is possible" - Rumsfeld answering a question as to whether he would resign to prove a point that Americans are about international democracy, not the oppostite thereof

 

Its positive to see that the President and Cabinet are treating this situation with much more maturity, respect, and disgust than the miles-away-zealots on this messageboard.

They have to. We're simply pointing out how ludicrous the objections are.

-=Mike

[Guest thebigjig]

You people just dont get it... do you know WHY people are making such a big fucking deal about this? Because of the repercussions this will have on our troops over there... we're already struggling, and this crap is just throwing more fuel on the fire. We're supposed to be ABOVE this shit... Most of the detainees were just members of the Iraqi army under rule of Saddam Hussein, fighting for their leader... a leader that would have had them killed probably if they had refused. I find it funny how most of you can't distinguish between former Iraqi soldiers and the insurgents... to you, they're one in the same, and it shows your blind ignorance to the matter

 

Were these things as bad as what Saddam did to his own people? No, of course not. But that doesnt give anyone a free pass to do whatever the hell they want. There must be rules, and they must be followed... and if they aren't, there must be consequences, and to allow this "oh well, they're the enemy so we should be allowed to do whatever we want to them" is a fucking dangerous line of thinking

[Guest MikeSC]

You people just dont get it... do you know WHY people are making such a big fucking deal about this?

Well, the Europeans hope it keeps attention of how insanely bad the Oil For Food program was for Iraqi citizens, but how good it was for Saddam and his European benefactors.

Because of the repercussions this will have on our troops over there... we're already struggling, and this crap is just throwing more fuel on the fire.

You know why this might cause problems? Because the reaction is so slanted here.

 

The press shows these photos all of the time.

 

Why did they never show Daniel Pearl's execution? Was that somehow not as newsworthy as this?

We had video of people getting MASSACRED in Rwanda --- something the U.N had no desire to show. Why was the video never aired?

Why do they never show people jumping out of the WTC? They stopped THAT 48 hrs after the attack.

 

In their efforts to show how "bad" this war is --- they only show one side of the story.

We're supposed to be ABOVE this shit... Most of the detainees were just members of the Iraqi army under rule of Saddam Hussein, fighting for their leader... a leader that would have had them killed probably if they had refused.

And that absolves them from STILL fighting months later HOW?

I find it funny how most of you can't distinguish between former Iraqi soldiers and the insurgents... to you, they're one in the same, and it shows your blind ignorance to the matter

They ARE one in the same: "People trying to kill American troops".

Were these things as bad as what Saddam did to his own people? No, of course not. But that doesnt give anyone a free pass to do whatever the hell they want.

That Saddam's atrocities got LIP SERVICE compared to this is troubling.

 

The press needs to learn what a REAL atrocity is.

 

Heck, if it happened today, the press wouldn't focus on German atrocities --- they'd focus on the bombing of Dresden as proof that we are bad people.

There must be rules, and they must be followed... and if they aren't, there must be consequences, and to allow this "oh well, they're the enemy so we should be allowed to do whatever we want to them" is a fucking dangerous line of thinking

Again, they ARE being punished. The only reason this crap is out there is because the military RELEASED it with their investigation.

-=Mike

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

that's right folks. If it was done to you than it's ok to do it to them.

[Guest MikeSC]

that's right folks. If it was done to you than it's ok to do it to them.

Our troops get tortured and killed.

 

Theirs get embarrassed.

 

Yup, moral equivalent there, huh?

 

Somehow, I have a hard time building sympathy.

-=Mike

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Latest Polls indicate vast majority of Americans do not see it necessary for rumsfeld to resign

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

first it's humilation of enemy troops but then it's something else. once you start down that road it gets easier and easier to do wrong.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

source

ABC NEWS

 

Quotes pulled from text

 

Yet more than six in 10 also see these incidents as isolated, and say they should not cost Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld his job.

 

Still, given current knowledge, most say the buck should stop before it gets to Rumsfeld. Twenty percent in this ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll say he should resign, while many more, 69 percent, say he should retain his position. Even most Democrats — hardly the administration's fondest fans — say Rumsfeld should stay.

 

ABC News

 

Breakdown by political affiliation

 

Donald Rumsfeld Should: Resign His Job Keep His Job

All 20 percent 69 percent

Democrats 30 percent 58 percent

Independents 17 percent 73 percent

Republicans 11 percent 82 percent

Edited May 7, 2004 by Stephen Joseph

[Stephen Joseph 0]

first it's humilation of enemy troops but then it's something else. once you start down that road it gets easier and easier to do wrong.

There a reason this was changed?

I supplied the source like you asked

[snuffbox 0]

Rumsfeld stated that resignation is 'possible' in a situation where it would positively impact the world's outlook of America and the war on terror. American public opinion or his own personal right/wrong dont appear to be currently affecting this possibility.

 

Right now, I agree with Rumsfelds handling of the situation, from all that Ive seen/read thus far.

[Guest MikeSC]

Rumsfeld stated that resignation is 'possible' in a situation where it would positively impact the world's outlook of America and the war on terror. American public opinion or his own personal right/wrong dont appear to be currently affecting this possibility.

 

Right now, I agree with Rumsfelds handling of the situation, from all that Ive seen/read thus far.

He shouldn't do it then, either.

 

The world isn't going to support us, because the int'l community finds it easier to simply exploit people in tyranny than to do anything to fix the problem.

-=Mike

[snuffbox 0]

Rumsfeld stated that resignation is 'possible' in a situation where it would positively impact the world's outlook of America and the war on terror. American public opinion or his own personal right/wrong dont appear to be currently affecting this possibility.

 

Right now, I agree with Rumsfelds handling of the situation, from all that Ive seen/read thus far.

He shouldn't do it then, either.

 

The world isn't going to support us, because the int'l community finds it easier to simply exploit people in tyranny than to do anything to fix the problem.

-=Mike

He is considering it for the good of his country....not himself or his party.

[Guest hunger4unger]

America needs a scapegoat right now and who better than Rumsfield.

 

I'm shocked that Rumsfield knew about this since July 2003.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Our troops get tortured and killed.

 

Theirs get embarrassed.

That's just embarassed? Sodomized with a broomstick is embarassed? Having your head placed at some other guys private parts is embarassed?

 

I suppose any rape would just be "inappropriate touching," too?

[Guest MikeSC]

Rumsfeld stated that resignation is 'possible' in a situation where it would positively impact the world's outlook of America and the war on terror. American public opinion or his own personal right/wrong dont appear to be currently affecting this possibility.

 

Right now, I agree with Rumsfelds handling of the situation, from all that Ive seen/read thus far.

He shouldn't do it then, either.

 

The world isn't going to support us, because the int'l community finds it easier to simply exploit people in tyranny than to do anything to fix the problem.

-=Mike

He is considering it for the good of his country....not himself or his party.

Then kudos to him. Too bad he's just a scapegoat for all this.

That's just embarassed? Sodomized with a broomstick is embarassed? Having your head placed at some other guys private parts is embarassed?

 

I suppose any rape would just be "inappropriate touching," too?

Yup.

 

Starved to death and marched for 100's of miles through a jungle --- THAT is torture.

 

Getting bones broken indiscriminately --- THAT is torture.

 

THIS is humiliation. And I have a hard time welling up a tear to shed for them.

-=Mike

[bobobrazil1984 0]

one of the reasons I dont think Rumsfeld should resign over this specificially is that if he stays on, the limelight will be focused straight on him, and he wouldn't dare any political bs or stonewalling. YOu can bet that Rumsfeld will throw the book and then some at these "soldiers" to save his own hide (as most politicians on either side would do), and give the visual of him/them taking decisive action here. At least I'd hope so.

 

Having those sickos (especially considering the latest report of them taking videos of people having sex with boys) punished is far more important than having Rumsfeld himself punished.

[Guest MikeSC]

one of the reasons I dont think Rumsfeld should resign over this specificially is that if he stays on, the limelight will be focused straight on him, and he wouldn't dare any political bs or stonewalling. YOu can bet that Rumsfeld will throw the book and then some at these "soldiers" to save his own hide (as most politicians on either side would do), and give the visual of him/them taking decisive action here. At least I'd hope so.

 

Having those sickos (especially considering the latest report of them taking videos of people having sex with boys) punished is far more important than having Rumsfeld himself punished.

The problem boils down to a few things:

 

1) Janis Karpinski, brigadier general and person in charge of the regiment in charge of Abu Gharib, was completely incapable of leading anything. She had zero control over the men and women under her command.

 

2) The Englund woman should have never been there --- it was not her area --- but she stopped by to see her boyfriend (and father of her child), who was there.

 

Again, this seems more of a problem of gender integration in the army and some women being given positions that they are sorely incapable of handling.

 

Are ALL women unable to be effective leaders? No --- but Karpinski CLEARLY was incapable --- yet she wasn't removed from her position, in spite of the Tagura report mentioning RAMPANT problem with her regiment.

 

This isn't a major problem --- it is a problem of one horribly inept leader exercising horrible inept leadership.

-=Mike

[Guest Cerebus]

Actually, in addition to being a shining example why Rumsfeld has his head up his ass when it comes to troop levels, it symbolizes a stunning break down of the Chain of Command in Iraq. Heads should roll for the cluster fuck that was the CoC at Abu Gharib if nothing else.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Getting bones broken indiscriminately --- THAT is torture.

 

THIS is humiliation.

Two questions:

 

Appearantly there's still photos out there of someone allegedly "nearly beaten to death." If that winds up being the case, isn't THAT torture?

 

Also, when your average American woman gets raped, is that humiliation?

[Firestarter 0]

Appearantly there's still photos out there of someone allegedly "nearly beaten to death." If that winds up being the case, isn't THAT torture?

If. Then, yes. Thing is, I haven't seen these photos, and I doubt Mike has either. So I'm not talking about them, and I presume Mike isn't talking about them. We're talking about what we have seen. And that, as both of us have said, repeatedly, is nothing more than humiliation. And neither of us has much of a problem with that.

 

Also, when your average American woman gets raped, is that humiliation?

No. It's assault and battery and sadistic torture, and it should be a capital offense. And no, it doesn't make any difference to me if the victim is an innocent American or a would-be Iraqi suicide bomber (or whatever). The identity and character of the victim is immaterial in such a crime. Thing is, no one's ever denied that. The allegations of rape and murder are, right now, just allegations. Serious allegations to be sure, but not proof positive. And if they turn out to be true, no American will defend or excuse the soldiers convicted of such disgusting crimes. But until it's proven one way or the other, kindly refrain from assuming that it has been, and then trying to claim points for your unproven assumptions.