USA POW Beheaded

[Guest MikeSC]

My point was that your supposed tenets--i.e., anti-cultural tolerance--is right in line with theirs.

 

Yes, we should definitely fight intolerance with intolerance. This will, ultimately, solve everything.

But, Tyler, at what point do we recognize that they can't be reasoned or bargained with? When do we finally say "Either OUR civilization remains or theirs does" --- because I don't think both can co-exist --- and darn it, our civilization is BETTER.

 

These terrorists will chant Allah's name while slashing a guy's head off. What can we POSSIBLY do to overcome so perverted a religious belief? This is WORSE than the Nazis, who at least didn't CARE about God or religion. These people think their God is TELLING them to do this --- which is MUCH harder to fight.

 

They're WORSE than the Crusaders were.

-=Mike

...And Al Jazeera thinks we're as bad as Saddam was (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/0EE30E43-B137-417C-9FA4-E629E849E7DC.htm). They're ignoring the AFTERMATH of the scandal (all involved will be punished --- unlike what happened under Saddam) and only focusing on the abuse.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

It's not racist. They're a bunch of fucks.

 

Any group of rich assholes who abuse their people and do nothing that doesn't benefit themselves don't deserve respect, nor do they deserve all that we've done for them.

 

However, the fact is that we've kept a presence in the Gulf for a long fucking time to ensure that they've remained in power.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Al-Azhar Scholars Condemn Berg's Beheading

 

Hezbollah Condemns Beheading

[Guest MikeSC]

It's not racist. They're a bunch of fucks.

 

Any group of rich assholes who abuse their people and do nothing that doesn't benefit themselves don't deserve respect, nor do they deserve all that we've done for them.

 

However, the fact is that we've kept a presence in the Gulf for a long fucking time to ensure that they've remained in power.

And, honestly, I would have no problem leaving and allowing them to get slashed up. If the new leaders want us to never go to Arabia again, keep the oil flowing. We've spent too much time and money protecting people who are NOT our allies and who OPPOSE our beliefs and values.

 

This is all started because FDR wanted to protect oil because we didn't have enough in our borders to fight WW II. Unfortunately, we've not found a nice way to get out of there. It's not anybody's fault --- but it's time we consider letting the pieces fall where they may. Almost all of the 9/11 hijackers came from Arabia --- this wasn't accidental or coincidental.

 

Besides, I assumed places like Venezuela were more of a problem --- we get almost as much oil from there and their leadership COMPLETELY hates us.

-=Mike

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Iraqis condemn it, too

 

I'm getting these links from a few websites that are trying to gauge the reaction to this incident. They may or may not be credible, as I've only had time to scan them. Still, it's worth mentioning that there IS a significant outcry against this.

 

Of course, there's some of the expected reactions as well.

[Guest MikeSC]

Al-Azhar Scholars Condemn Berg's Beheading

Very nice --- except for these quotes from that article:

However, Fayoumi suspected the whole episode was "an American propaganda to divert attention from the scandal of the U.S. military abuse of Iraqi detainees".

"There is no basis in Islam to justify this, as Islam calls for justice and treating the prisoners with clemency," he said, noting that the occupation forces share a fair share of blame.

 

"The decapitator vented his anger at the occupation forces," mired in gruesome acts of torturing and abusing Iraqi detainees.

 

Al-Adawy said the broadcasting of the execution "mirrors deep anger now filling the hearts of all Muslims and world peoples over the U.S. military abuses of Iraqi civilians."

Again --- they won't condemn it --- they excuse it. "It's bad, BUT..."

 

If an American beheaded an Iraqi, NO AMERICAN --- not even me --- would say "That's bad, BUT..."

 

And...

Hezbollah Condemns Beheading

"The timing of this act that overshadowed the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in occupation forces prisons is suspect timing that aims to serve the American administration and occupation forces in Iraq and present excuses and pretexts for their inhumane practices against Iraqi detainees."

 

The Syrian-backed group which the United States deems "terrorist" said the executors' behavior was closer to "the Pentagon school -- the school of killing and occupation and crimes and torture and immoral practices that were exposed by the great scandal in occupation prisons."

They STILL won't condemn this. They still say it's OUR fault (ignoring that this happened to Pearl YEARS ago).

 

THIS is the problem. In the eyes of the Arabic Muslims --- Muslims CAN'T DO WRONG.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Iraqis condemn it, too

 

I'm getting these links from a few websites that are trying to gauge the reaction to this incident. They may or may not be credible, as I've only had time to scan them. Still, it's worth mentioning that there IS a significant outcry against this.

 

Of course, there's some of the expected reactions as well.

But Faidi feared the beheading of the American citizen would overshadow the Iraqi prisoner scandal.

 

"It will surely drift the attention of public opinion from the torture and abuse of Iraqi prisoners," he said.

Again, no outright condemnation --- more of the "it'll distract from the REAL crime..."

 

I've never heard ANY Arabic Muslim condemn what another Muslims does CATEGORICALLY. They didn't with 9/11. They didn't with the Pearl decapitation. And they won't here.

-=Mike

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Your picking out a few lines out of the articles--while it does serve the purpose of proving the moot point that they hate us--ignores the fact that they are, in fact, condemning the act.

 

 

 

"The mutilation even of enemies is rejected by Islam. A mistake could not justify another," he underlined.

[Guest webmasterofwrestlegame]

Is it possible to confuse racism with 'no ill meant ignorance'? Someone referred to a "Paki government" earlier - thats pretty racist as saying "Paki" is insulting.

 

Though I imagine they may not know it in America as George Bush once hilariously called Pakistani's "Paki's" as well.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Your picking out a few lines out of the articles--while it does serve the purpose of proving the moot point that they hate us--ignores the fact that they are, in fact, condemning the act.

 

 

 

"The mutilation even of enemies is rejected by Islam. A mistake could not justify another," he underlined.

Come on Tyler. Hezbollah is condeming the timing of the act, not the act itself. They also think the U.S. was behind the murder.

[Guest TheAustralian]

Just a question Mike.

 

Earlier you said

 

 

But, Tyler, at what point do we recognize that they can't be reasoned or bargained with? When do we finally say "Either OUR civilization remains or theirs does" --- because I don't think both can co-exist --- and darn it, our civilization is BETTER.

 

Are you suggesting a all out war on Muslim civilisations?

 

Do you believe America or Australia etc have the right to try to create the worlld in our image?

 

Personally I think terrorism can be solved if the world stands up as one, to stamp out Terrorism. If countries like ours stand up and take action we would be able to overcome this.

 

I just dont understand your statement about destroying a civilisation.

 

Mike surely you know, that in countries like Nigeria and the congo Violence is much worse, and some of this Violence is actually being done to muslims by Christians.

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

Some condemnation from 3 Arab states, rationalization-free:

 

Arab states condemn beheading

 

Personally I think people are taking the bait and falling right into Al-Qaeda's trap by linking this event to the prisoner abuses. This is standard Al-Qaeda modus operandi: commit a violent act that they would do under any normal circumstances (I'm sure we can all agree that beheading someone doesn't require much motivation for Al-Qaeda terrorists), and then associate it with the hot-button anti-American topic of the day. Bin Laden himself was the master of this: depending on the time period and what was getting the most play in the media, he was at war with the USA because of the Gulf War, because of military bases in Saudi Arabia (probably the closest one to the actual truth), because of the Palestine-Israel conflict, or a variety of other reasons.

[Guest hunger4unger]

The guy they are pinning this murder on, Abu Musab Zarqawi, allegedly bin Laden's chief of chemical weapons, actually had a leg blown off in Afghanistan...I didn't see anyone with limited mobility in the video. Also, look at the SIZE of those guys...they look more like well fed Americans that arabs...you have to ask....would evil men with unlimited wealth and power kill in order to keep such wealth and power...? This is really scary stuff...half the conspiracy stuff I read or think about I don't take seriously and keep an open mind on, but this....it's actually scaring me.

[Zorin Industries 0]

Oh christ...

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Just remember, he's on your "side..."

[Zorin Industries 0]

Don't remind me, please.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Actually, you should be thankful -- after all, he makes the rest of "you people" look more reasonable...

[Zorin Industries 0]

Hey, I'm always reasonable (I think)

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I didn't say you were not reasonable -- I said "more reasonable."

 

Don't you dare twist my meanings -- you're almost as bad as the right-wing talk-radio media.

 

And while you're at it, stop questioning my patriotism...

[Ripper 0]

The guy they are pinning this murder on, Abu Musab Zarqawi, allegedly bin Laden's chief of chemical weapons, actually had a leg blown off in Afghanistan...I didn't see anyone with limited mobility in the video. Also, look at the SIZE of those guys...they look more like well fed Americans that arabs...you have to ask....would evil men with unlimited wealth and power kill in order to keep such wealth and power...? This is really scary stuff...half the conspiracy stuff I read or think about I don't take seriously and keep an open mind on, but this....it's actually scaring me.

...

[Guest Cerebus]

The guy they are pinning this murder on, Abu Musab Zarqawi, allegedly bin Laden's chief of chemical weapons, actually had a leg blown off in Afghanistan...I didn't see anyone with limited mobility in the video. Also, look at the SIZE of those guys...they look more like well fed Americans that arabs...you have to ask....would evil men with unlimited wealth and power kill in order to keep such wealth and power...? This is really scary stuff...half the conspiracy stuff I read or think about I don't take seriously and keep an open mind on, but this....it's actually scaring me.

I wish I could take back that poll I started. KKK was right, this IS gold!

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

half the conspiracy stuff I read or think about I don't take seriously and keep an open mind on

But yet you don't trust a certain cable news channel because it's biased.

 

Okie Dokie...

[Slayer 0]

FUCKING MONSTERS, KILL THEM ALL.

 

That's insensitive What about US?! WE TORTURED THEM. YOU SHOULD'VE EXPECTED THAT!

 

HEY! WTF MATE, IT WASN'T EVEN THAT BAD! HELL, THEY DESERVE IT AFTER DOING THIS!

 

DUDE UR RACIST THEIR NOT DOING NETHING WRONG BUT I'M NOT PRO-TERRORIST I LOVE AMERICA

 

::i think they believed me this time::

 

HUNGER YOU'RE A FUCKING MORON! I WISH WE TORTURED MORE OF THEM!

 

RACISTS

 

nuh uh

I don't normally agree with anything Tyler posts, but this made me laugh pretty hard (albeit probably for reasons which Tyler did not intend)

[Guest MikeSC]

Is it possible to confuse racism with 'no ill meant ignorance'? Someone referred to a "Paki government" earlier - thats pretty racist as saying "Paki" is insulting.

 

Though I imagine they may not know it in America as George Bush once hilariously called Pakistani's "Paki's" as well.

Is that racist? Paki just seems like a legit abbreviation to Pakistani.

Are you suggesting a all out war on Muslim civilisations?

 

Do you believe America or Australia etc have the right to try to create the worlld in our image?

 

Personally I think terrorism can be solved if the world stands up as one, to stamp out Terrorism. If countries like ours stand up and take action we would be able to overcome this.

 

I just dont understand your statement about destroying a civilisation.

 

Mike surely you know, that in countries like Nigeria and the congo Violence is much worse, and some of this Violence is actually being done to muslims by Christians.

Muslim extremism has to go --- and, sadly, I am not convinced that mainstream Muslims would do anything but fight us about it. These groups are a threat to the int'l comunity and that is not acceptable.

 

Will this require a war againsty Islam? I'd like to believe no --- but as saw w/ the beheading, Muslims seem to have a hard time condemning obvious atrocities. It MIGHT end up with that as a sad necessity --- but we have to protect ourselves.

 

As for the violence in the Congo, no real Christian would do that (yes, there are some extremists on our side who need to be eliminated) and we should make WHOMEVER is committing atrocities (and, by us, I mean the US because the UN never will) suffer mightily for doing so.

Now, for this...

The guy they are pinning this murder on, Abu Musab Zarqawi, allegedly bin Laden's chief of chemical weapons, actually had a leg blown off in Afghanistan...I didn't see anyone with limited mobility in the video. Also, look at the SIZE of those guys...they look more like well fed Americans that arabs...you have to ask....would evil men with unlimited wealth and power kill in order to keep such wealth and power...? This is really scary stuff...half the conspiracy stuff I read or think about I don't take seriously and keep an open mind on, but this....it's actually scaring me.

Umm, yeah.

 

Embrace your own, left. LOVE HIM!

-=Mike

[Zorin Industries 0]

Umm, yeah.

 

Embrace your own, left. LOVE HIM!

-=Mike

Please take him off our hands, PLEASE

[Guest MikeSC]

Umm, yeah.

 

Embrace your own, left. LOVE HIM!

                    -=Mike

Please take him off our hands, PLEASE

You know you love your crazy, paranoid, psychotic brethren.

 

He'd probably fall for ANY prank you decided to play on him in no time flat.

-=Mike

[Guest Wildbomb 4:20]

Umm, yeah.

 

Embrace your own, left. LOVE HIM!

-=Mike

Not on my fucking life.

 

Anyways, to attempt and make a halfway coherent point.

 

Religious fundamentalism, as its own establishment, can also be known as the distortion of religion in order to fit someone's own morality. It is a guise to justify someone's otherwise unacceptable beliefs. Because fundamentalists will often use the reasoning that "God says it is so," it is extremely difficult to try and reason with said people. Obvious examples are those involved with the September 11th attacks, but also the religious right here in America involved in the gay marriage debate. This is not to say that the religious right is attempting to use the same technique, or looking to try for the same ends, as the religious fundamentalists intent on attacking America. The main point is that fundamentalists (or, to use a phrase more often used in terms of race, people who pass) will take religion, and distort it for their own means.

 

However, due to sentiment in culture, religious fundamentalism can provide something for people to care about. According to a 2002 article in America,

Where modern culture had an alien tenor, fundamentalists provided meaning and spirituality that was accessible to the people...fundamentalism summoned young people from spectator status to an active participation in their culture and, more to the point, gave them a sense of meaning and purpose, something none of their leader’s tried to do (3).

When people's leaders fail them, these people may turn to fundamentalism, where they have a sense of pride and normalcy that otherwise would be unavailable to them. This was also shown in Neil Swidey's article on Boston's area colleges, entitled "God on the Quad." Within this article, he quotes numerous evangelical students as having a more active sense of self, and sense in community. However, all also believed that salvation was only open to those who lined up behind them and Jesus Christ. The entire article can be found on LexisNexis or Newsbank; it is a Boston Globe Magazine article from late 2003.

 

The difference comes from the ends of the actions of these people. While evangelicals are more often than not concerned with saving the souls of others, the people who pass as religious fundamentalists are more concerned with the justification of their own actions. This, I feel, is why we are seeing the problems in the Middle East today. The leaders of some of these countries fear the reactions of their own people, as they saw, in other countries, what can happen if people turn to religious fundamentalism over their own leaders. Take Afghanistan as one of the better, or worse, examples, depending on which viewpoint you want to take. The leadership of these countries failed after the Soviet Union was driven out by the combination of the United States and Afghani soldiers (lead by everybody's favorite terrorist, Osama bin Laden). The people turned towards religious fundamentalism. And we all know how that turned out.

 

Thus, the problems in the conflict with religious fundamentalism will continue to swirl. Is it a problem with Islam exclusively? Most definitely not. What if people were to truly follow the word of the book series Left Behind, where, in the final book, the fictional Antichrist becomes the head of the United Nations, and signs a peace treaty with Israel, because the Jews are to blame for our problems today? In other words, it is more of a problem with morality and hatred than one of religion. The course of action, therefore, needs to be both eliminating the terrorist threat while also attempting to educate. There are going to be many people that will be unable to see the errors of their ways, as they have been immersed in fundamentalism for far too long. Will it be easy? Hell no. But if we're going to make a change, we might as well do it right.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

If US and UK troops could control their ignorant and ill-educated thoughts and didn't abuse Iraqi POW's then this murder wouldn't have happened.

 

Don't give us that horseshit, They would have killed him regardless simply because he was American. They hate us, they want us dead. Period.

[Guest MikeSC]

If US and UK troops could control their ignorant and ill-educated thoughts and didn't abuse Iraqi POW's then this murder wouldn't have happened.

 

Don't give us that horseshit, They would have killed him regardless simply because he was American. They hate us, they want us dead. Period.

Just remember the name Daniel Pearl anytime anybody says that.

-=Mike

[Styles 0]

Hizbolla's "apology":

 

Hizbollah said Berg's killing had diverted the world's gaze from an escalating furor over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by occupation soldiers.

 

"The timing of this act that overshadowed the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in occupation forces prisons is suspect timing that aims to serve the American administration and occupation forces in Iraq and present excuses and pretexts for their inhumane practices against Iraqi detainees."

 

The Syrian-backed group which the United States deems "terrorist" said the executors' behavior was closer to "the Pentagon school -- the school of killing and occupation and crimes and torture and immoral practices that were exposed by the great scandal in occupation prisons."

 

Washington blames Hizbollah, whose attacks forced Israeli troops to withdraw from south Lebanon in 2000 after a 22-year occupation, for 1980s suicide bombings against its embassy and Marines barracks and the abduction of Westerners in Beirut.

Hizbollah said Berg's killing had diverted the world's gaze from an escalating furor over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by occupation soldiers.

 

"The timing of this act that overshadowed the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in occupation forces prisons is suspect timing that aims to serve the American administration and occupation forces in Iraq and present excuses and pretexts for their inhumane practices against Iraqi detainees."

 

The Syrian-backed group which the United States deems "terrorist" said the executors' behavior was closer to "the Pentagon school -- the school of killing and occupation and crimes and torture and immoral practices that were exposed by the great scandal in occupation prisons."

 

Washington blames Hizbollah, whose attacks forced Israeli troops to withdraw from south Lebanon in 2000 after a 22-year occupation, for 1980s suicide bombings against its embassy and Marines barracks and the abduction of Westerners in Beirut.

 

Typical Muslim sing song "we're sorry this happened, but remember you guys are worse..." reaction. Pathetic. I'm not even past this point in the thread, and I already spotted a Hunger post when scrolling down, so I have more reading to do!