Israel at it again...

[Guest INXS]

Link

 

Israeli forces are in Nablus, in the Palestinian West Bank, in one of the largest military moves for months. Soldiers entered the city overnight, sealing off the casbah and carrying starting house-to-house searches. Mahmoud Aloul, Nablus' mayor, said soldiers were shooting and blowing up doors and rounding up residents for questioning. The action was continuing as diplomats discussed prospects for the peace process in Egypt. In Nablus, Israeli soldiers demolished at least one house after they said they had found found explosives. According to reports, soldiers shot tear gas and bullets at a group of Palestinians. Hospital officials say two people were wounded. Palestinians said the men were shot after they threw stones at soldiers. The Israeli army said troops shot at a group of armed men after one of them threw a firebomb and the others opened fire. An Israeli military spokesman said that the operation was likely to continue for several days.

 

And the people of Israel wonder WHY some Palestinians become suicide bombers.

 

When, next week, suicide bombers target Israel, remember this story.

 

Peace must be a word neither side understands.

[Guest MikeSC]

Hmm, tore down a house after they found explosives? THOSE EVIL BASTARDS!

-=Mike

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Besides, it doesn't matter if one side wants peace. If the other doesn't, that indicates a state of war. Now how does one win a war? By sitting and waiting for someone to shoot at you?

[Black Lushus 0]

*off topic* did anyone else have "Rock The Casbah" enter their head when they started reading that article?

 

*on topic* the Israelis and the Palestinians are like the Crips and Bloods of the world, peace lasts for a little while, but soon you get tired of seeing too much red or blue and you're ready to kill the person wearing it!

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

As soon as I read the word, the song started..

 

Factoid: That was the first song played over service airwaves during Operation: Desert Storm.

[Black Lushus 0]

that is actually an interesting factoid, i did not know that...it actually made me chuckle at my desk as I read that...

[KingPK 0]

When, next week, suicide bombers target Israel, remember this story.

 

That reminds me, Hamas really has been slacking on the whole suicide bomber thing lately, haven't they? What, have the youth of Palestine declared "strapping bombs on yourself and walking onto a bus is SOOOOO 2002"?

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Beheading is the new suicide bombing for hip young brainwashed hatefucks.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Why kill 10 people on a bus with a boom-boom, when you can just chop off their heads one at a time with a rusty blade?...

[Guest CronoT]

Link

 

Israeli forces are in Nablus, in the Palestinian West Bank, in one of the largest military moves for months. Soldiers entered the city overnight, sealing off the casbah and carrying starting house-to-house searches. Mahmoud Aloul, Nablus' mayor, said soldiers were shooting and blowing up doors and rounding up residents for questioning. The action was continuing as diplomats discussed prospects for the peace process in Egypt. In Nablus, Israeli soldiers demolished at least one house after they said they had found found explosives. According to reports, soldiers shot tear gas and bullets at a group of Palestinians. Hospital officials say two people were wounded. Palestinians said the men were shot after they threw stones at soldiers. The Israeli army said troops shot at a group of armed men after one of them threw a firebomb and the others opened fire. An Israeli military spokesman said that the operation was likely to continue for several days.

 

And the people of Israel wonder WHY some Palestinians become suicide bombers.

 

When, next week, suicide bombers target Israel, remember this story.

 

Peace must be a word neither side understands.

The only kind of peace the extremists on both sides understand is "Kill them all down to the last man, woman, and child, and then we can have peace."

 

The sad fact is, I think it may be heading in this direction, and it may be getting there sooner than we think.

[Guest Cerebus]

Beheading is the new suicide bombing for hip young brainwashed hatefucks.

You ain't kidding.

 

A video located today on Sheik Abu Hamza's website, www.shareeah.org, features four children, doing what as children the world over do: pretending.

 

But what is completely unnerving about this video is what they are pretending.

 

One young boy kneels in front of three other children, in the same manner of the condemned man; Three other children stand behind him in the same way that the terrorists stood over the men prior to their beheading. The three standing children are armed with pretend weapons. One of the three children is a girl.

 

The tallest of the three standing children pretends he is Zarqawi, and reads a list of demands.

 

The film clip ends with the pretend beheading of the kneeling child.

[nl5xsk1 0]

Hmm, tore down a house after they found explosives? THOSE EVIL BASTARDS!

-=Mike

Mike, they also shot at people who were throwing rocks at them. They probably should have just asked them nicely to stop or something. Those Israelis, won't they ever learn?!?

[Styles 0]

Blah blah blah blah....just shutup.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

MYTH

 

“Israel is illegally, and without justification, destroying Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip.”

 

FACT

 

The Palestinian Authority has repeatedly made commitments to stop terror against Israel. In the most recent agreement, the road map, the PA agreed to “declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.” To date, the PA has not fulfilled this commitment and, as recently as May 15, 2004, Yasser Arafat called on Palestinians to “find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God.”97

 

In Gaza, terrorists have acted with impunity since the PA was created. They intentionally hide in refugee camps and elsewhere among the civilian population. They do so knowing that Israel will make every effort to avoid attacking them out of concern for innocent lives. The civilian population puts itself at risk, however, by allowing the terrorists to use them as shields.

 

When it comes to homes that Israeli security forces have demolished, they are not chosen at random. These dwellings are used by terrorists as hideouts, bomb factories, and sniper and ambush sites. Buildings near the Egyptian border are used by terrorists to conceal tunnels that allow them to smuggle arms, explosives and other terrorists into Gaza for the express purpose of killing Israelis. The government of Egypt, which could stop the smuggling and provocation immediately, refuses to do so.

 

As is the case in fighting terrorism generally, the question that must be asked about Israel's decision to demolish homes is: What alternatives are open to Israel? If the Palestinian authorities were doing their jobs, and fulfilling their promises, the terrorists would be in jail, the bomb factories, closed, and the tunnels filled in. Since they are not, Israel must find a way to protect its citizens, and security forces have concluded that demolitions are the most effective tool.

 

Unlike the PA, Israel is governed by the rule of law, and even the decision to demolish homes is subject to review by its judiciary. When terrorists fire at Israeli soldiers or civilians from residential buildings or activate roadside charges from orchards and fields, military necessity dictates the demolition of these locations and international law recognizes them as legitimate targets. Israel’s Supreme Court, the most independent judicial body in the Middle East, has ruled the army’s actions are legal.

 

Innocent lives have been lost during Israeli operations. As the United States has discovered in fighting an urban war against anti-American insurgents in Iraq, it is virtually impossible to engage gunmen in populated areas and avoid civilian casualties. Like the U.S. army in Iraq, Israeli forces are defending themselves and seeking to minimize collateral damage.

 

Reports about Palestinians being hurt describe them being in the midst of gun battles.98 If Palestinians are shooting at Israeli soldiers, then clearly the Israelis are not attacking innocent civilians. And the media never bothers to ask a more fundamental question; that is, why do any of the Palestinians in Gaza have guns to shoot at the Israelis in the first place? Again, according to agreements the Palestinians signed, the only people entitled to have weapons are the police, and the PA is obligated to confiscate all illegal weapons.

 

In the course of Israel’s operations, it is tragic that civilians sometimes suffer. Rather than blame Israel, however, the Palestinians should demand the democratic election of new leaders who will dismantle the terrorist networks so that Israel has no need to take defensive measures.

 

Notes

1New York Times, (December 14, 1987).

2UPI, (December 9, 1987).

3Al-Hamishmar, (December 6, 1991); B'Tselem.

4Wall Street Journal, (February 21, 1990).

5Near East Report, (August 5, 1991).

6Baghdad Voice of the PLO, (May 12, 1989).

7New York Times, (October 24, 1989).

8Al-Mussawar, (January 19, 1990).

9Wall Street Journal, (February 21, 1990).

10Radio Monte Carlo, (October 23, 1990).

11Jerusalem Post, (September 14, 1991).

12Jerusalem Post, (July 6 and October 5, 1991).

13Near East Report, Year End Reports, (1991-1993).

14The New Republic, (November 23, 1992).

15New York Times, (June 12, 1991).

16Daoud Kuttab, "A Profile of the Stonethrowers," Journal of Palestine Studies, (Spring 1988), p. 15.

17AP, (October 10, 2001).

18Jerusalem Post, (March 4, 2001).

19Conclusion of the Mitchell Report, (May 4, 2001).

20Quoted in Sharm El-Sheikh Fact-Finding Committee First Statement of the Government of Israel, Israeli Foreign Ministry, (December 28, 2000).

21Ibid.

22"An Engineered Tragedy: Statistical Analysis of Casualties in the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict, September 2000-June 2002," International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, (June 2002).

23Israel Defense Forces.

24Jerusalem Post, (February 22, 2001).

25Ha'aretz, (March 1, 2001).

26Near East Report, (March 5, 2001).

27Almazen [Kuwait], (June 20, 2002).

28Jerusalem Report, (February 25, 2002); ; Ma'ariv, (July 31, 2002); Israel Defense Forces.

29Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (October 8, 2001).

30Jerusalem Report, (May 21, 2001).

31CNN, Israel Defense Forces, Jerusalem Post, (November 28, 2000); Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (March 21, 2002).

32 James Fallows, "Who Shot Mohammed al-Dura?" The Atlantic Monthly, (June 2003).

33Quoted in the Jerusalem Post, (April 1, 2001).

34Washington Post, (June 17, 2001)

35Letter from George Mitchell and Warren Rudman to ADL Director Abraham Foxman, (May 11, 2001).

36Briefing by Major General Giora Eiland, Head of the IDF Operation Branch, to the Foreign Press Association, Jerusalem, (May 20, 2001).

37State Department Briefing, (April 17, 2001)

38Time, (April 19, 2001)

39Collin Powell, My American Journey, (NY: Random House, 1995), p. 434.

40Washington Post, (June 28, 1993).

41CNN, (July 16, 2002).

42Ha'aretz, (February 11, 2001).

43Al-Watan [Kuwait], (June 7, 2002).

44Jerusalem Post, (July 21, 2002 and February 5, 2003) and U.S. Department of State.

45Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (June 11, 2002).

46Foreign Report, (July 26, 2001).

47Washington Post, (August 15, 2001).

48Jerusalem Post, (August 2, 2001).

49Reuters, (August 9, 2001).

50Washington Post, (September 14 and 18, 2001).

51CNN, (November 4, 2002).

52Fox News, (August 3, 2001).

53RonaldReagan.com, Washington Post and other news sources.

54Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (August 30, 2001).

55Jerusalem Post, (August 10, 2001).

56Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (November 30, 2001).

57News Conference, (September 12, 2001).

58Jerusalem Post, (September 10, 2001).

59Washington Post, (September 7, 2001).

60Michael Oren, "Palestinians Cheer Carnage," Wall Street Journal, (August 7, 2002).

61Jerusalem Post, (August 24, 2001).

62Jerusalem Post, (April 25, 2002).

63Jerusalem Post, (April 28, 2002); Forward, (June 28, 2002); MSNBC, (July 31, 2002).

64New York Post, (May 3, 2002).

65Jerusalem Report, (December 30, 2002).

66New York Times, (April 20, 2002).

67Washington Post, (April 26, 2002).

68Israeli Foreign Ministry

69Washington Post, (January 31, 2002).

70Israeli Foreign Ministry

71“Bomb found in Red Crescent Ambulance,” Ha’aretz, (June 12, 2002).

72Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (June 30, 2002).

72aMargot Dudkevitch, "Palestinian Transported Bomb Materials in Ambulances," Jerusalem Post, (December 11, 2003).

73Ha'aretz, (November 28, 2002).

73aMaariv, (October 14, 2003).

74Washington Times, (February 20, 2003).

75"Blackmailing Young Women into Suicide Terrorism," Israeli Foreign Ministry, (February 12, 2003).

76Christian Science Monitor, (April 02, 2003).

77Jerusalem Post, (June 26, 2003).

78Washington Post, (March 17, 2003).

79OregonLive.com, (March 18, 2003).

80Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2002, The State Department, March 31, 2003; B'tselem, Amnesty International, January-December 2002; Jerusalem Post, (August 25, 2002).

80aNewsFirstClass, (December 12, 2003).

80bJerusalem Post, (January 12 & 14, 2004); Jay Bushinsky, "Arafat's rule a nightmare for Palestinian journalists," Chicago Sun-Times, (March 5, 2004).

81In a September 2003 poll, 75% of Israelis supported targeted killings, Tami Steinmetz Research Institute for Peace at Tel Aviv University.

82Boston Globe, (October 16, 2003).

82aJerusalem Post, (March 14, 2004).

83Haaretz, (October 24, 2003); UPI, (October 21, 2003).

84Haaretz, (December 18, 2003).

85Ben Caspit, "Arafat Connected to Murder of Americans in Gaza," Maariv, (January 4, 2004); "U.S. offers $5M reward for information on Gaza attack," Associated Press, (February 5, 2004).

85a“U.S. calls off Gaza water projects over convoy bombing,” AP, (May 7, 2004)

86Associated Press; Jerusalem Post; New York Post, (March 16, 2004); CNN.com (March 25, 2004).

87Amnesty International, Press Release, (March 24, 2004).

88Itamar Marcus, “Ask for Death,” The Review, (March 2003).

89Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, (June 18, 2002).

90Jerusalem Post, (December 25, 2003).

91Jerusalem Post, (March 15, 2004).

92Associated Press, (March 1, 2004).

93London Daily Telegraph, (March 15, 2004).

94Richard Sale, "Hamas history tied to Israel," UPI (June 18, 2002).

95Ze'ev Schiff and Ehud Ya'ari, Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising-- Israel's Third Front. NY: Simon and Schuster, 1990, pp. 227-239.

96Avraham Burg, A Letter to My Palestinian Friends, Forward, (September 26, 2003).

97Voice of America, (May 15, 2004).

98See, for example, Washington Post, (May 19, 2004).

[Guest INXS]

Blah blah blah blah....just shutup.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

MYTH

 

“Israel is illegally, and without justification, destroying Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip.”

 

FACT

 

The Palestinian Authority has repeatedly made commitments to stop terror against Israel. In the most recent agreement, the road map, the PA agreed to “declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.” To date, the PA has not fulfilled this commitment and, as recently as May 15, 2004, Yasser Arafat called on Palestinians to “find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God.”97

 

In Gaza, terrorists have acted with impunity since the PA was created. They intentionally hide in refugee camps and elsewhere among the civilian population. They do so knowing that Israel will make every effort to avoid attacking them out of concern for innocent lives. The civilian population puts itself at risk, however, by allowing the terrorists to use them as shields.

 

When it comes to homes that Israeli security forces have demolished, they are not chosen at random. These dwellings are used by terrorists as hideouts, bomb factories, and sniper and ambush sites. Buildings near the Egyptian border are used by terrorists to conceal tunnels that allow them to smuggle arms, explosives and other terrorists into Gaza for the express purpose of killing Israelis. The government of Egypt, which could stop the smuggling and provocation immediately, refuses to do so.

 

As is the case in fighting terrorism generally, the question that must be asked about Israel's decision to demolish homes is: What alternatives are open to Israel? If the Palestinian authorities were doing their jobs, and fulfilling their promises, the terrorists would be in jail, the bomb factories, closed, and the tunnels filled in. Since they are not, Israel must find a way to protect its citizens, and security forces have concluded that demolitions are the most effective tool.

 

Unlike the PA, Israel is governed by the rule of law, and even the decision to demolish homes is subject to review by its judiciary. When terrorists fire at Israeli soldiers or civilians from residential buildings or activate roadside charges from orchards and fields, military necessity dictates the demolition of these locations and international law recognizes them as legitimate targets. Israel’s Supreme Court, the most independent judicial body in the Middle East, has ruled the army’s actions are legal.

 

Innocent lives have been lost during Israeli operations. As the United States has discovered in fighting an urban war against anti-American insurgents in Iraq, it is virtually impossible to engage gunmen in populated areas and avoid civilian casualties. Like the U.S. army in Iraq, Israeli forces are defending themselves and seeking to minimize collateral damage.

 

Reports about Palestinians being hurt describe them being in the midst of gun battles.98 If Palestinians are shooting at Israeli soldiers, then clearly the Israelis are not attacking innocent civilians. And the media never bothers to ask a more fundamental question; that is, why do any of the Palestinians in Gaza have guns to shoot at the Israelis in the first place? Again, according to agreements the Palestinians signed, the only people entitled to have weapons are the police, and the PA is obligated to confiscate all illegal weapons.

 

In the course of Israel’s operations, it is tragic that civilians sometimes suffer. Rather than blame Israel, however, the Palestinians should demand the democratic election of new leaders who will dismantle the terrorist networks so that Israel has no need to take defensive measures.

 

Notes

1New York Times, (December 14, 1987).

2UPI, (December 9, 1987).

3Al-Hamishmar, (December 6, 1991); B'Tselem.

4Wall Street Journal, (February 21, 1990).

5Near East Report, (August 5, 1991).

6Baghdad Voice of the PLO, (May 12, 1989).

7New York Times, (October 24, 1989).

8Al-Mussawar, (January 19, 1990).

9Wall Street Journal, (February 21, 1990).

10Radio Monte Carlo, (October 23, 1990).

11Jerusalem Post, (September 14, 1991).

12Jerusalem Post, (July 6 and October 5, 1991).

13Near East Report, Year End Reports, (1991-1993).

14The New Republic, (November 23, 1992).

15New York Times, (June 12, 1991).

16Daoud Kuttab, "A Profile of the Stonethrowers," Journal of Palestine Studies, (Spring 1988), p. 15.

17AP, (October 10, 2001).

18Jerusalem Post, (March 4, 2001).

19Conclusion of the Mitchell Report, (May 4, 2001).

20Quoted in Sharm El-Sheikh Fact-Finding Committee First Statement of the Government of Israel, Israeli Foreign Ministry, (December 28, 2000).

21Ibid.

22"An Engineered Tragedy: Statistical Analysis of Casualties in the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict, September 2000-June 2002," International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, (June 2002).

23Israel Defense Forces.

24Jerusalem Post, (February 22, 2001).

25Ha'aretz, (March 1, 2001).

26Near East Report, (March 5, 2001).

27Almazen [Kuwait], (June 20, 2002).

28Jerusalem Report, (February 25, 2002); ; Ma'ariv, (July 31, 2002); Israel Defense Forces.

29Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (October 8, 2001).

30Jerusalem Report, (May 21, 2001).

31CNN, Israel Defense Forces, Jerusalem Post, (November 28, 2000); Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (March 21, 2002).

32 James Fallows, "Who Shot Mohammed al-Dura?" The Atlantic Monthly, (June 2003).

33Quoted in the Jerusalem Post, (April 1, 2001).

34Washington Post, (June 17, 2001)

35Letter from George Mitchell and Warren Rudman to ADL Director Abraham Foxman, (May 11, 2001).

36Briefing by Major General Giora Eiland, Head of the IDF Operation Branch, to the Foreign Press Association, Jerusalem, (May 20, 2001).

37State Department Briefing, (April 17, 2001)

38Time, (April 19, 2001)

39Collin Powell, My American Journey, (NY: Random House, 1995), p. 434.

40Washington Post, (June 28, 1993).

41CNN, (July 16, 2002).

42Ha'aretz, (February 11, 2001).

43Al-Watan [Kuwait], (June 7, 2002).

44Jerusalem Post, (July 21, 2002 and February 5, 2003) and U.S. Department of State.

45Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (June 11, 2002).

46Foreign Report, (July 26, 2001).

47Washington Post, (August 15, 2001).

48Jerusalem Post, (August 2, 2001).

49Reuters, (August 9, 2001).

50Washington Post, (September 14 and 18, 2001).

51CNN, (November 4, 2002).

52Fox News, (August 3, 2001).

53RonaldReagan.com, Washington Post and other news sources.

54Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (August 30, 2001).

55Jerusalem Post, (August 10, 2001).

56Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (November 30, 2001).

57News Conference, (September 12, 2001).

58Jerusalem Post, (September 10, 2001).

59Washington Post, (September 7, 2001).

60Michael Oren, "Palestinians Cheer Carnage," Wall Street Journal, (August 7, 2002).

61Jerusalem Post, (August 24, 2001).

62Jerusalem Post, (April 25, 2002).

63Jerusalem Post, (April 28, 2002); Forward, (June 28, 2002); MSNBC, (July 31, 2002).

64New York Post, (May 3, 2002).

65Jerusalem Report, (December 30, 2002).

66New York Times, (April 20, 2002).

67Washington Post, (April 26, 2002).

68Israeli Foreign Ministry

69Washington Post, (January 31, 2002).

70Israeli Foreign Ministry

71“Bomb found in Red Crescent Ambulance,” Ha’aretz, (June 12, 2002).

72Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (June 30, 2002).

72aMargot Dudkevitch, "Palestinian Transported Bomb Materials in Ambulances," Jerusalem Post, (December 11, 2003).

73Ha'aretz, (November 28, 2002).

73aMaariv, (October 14, 2003).

74Washington Times, (February 20, 2003).

75"Blackmailing Young Women into Suicide Terrorism," Israeli Foreign Ministry, (February 12, 2003).

76Christian Science Monitor, (April 02, 2003).

77Jerusalem Post, (June 26, 2003).

78Washington Post, (March 17, 2003).

79OregonLive.com, (March 18, 2003).

80Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2002, The State Department, March 31, 2003; B'tselem, Amnesty International, January-December 2002; Jerusalem Post, (August 25, 2002).

80aNewsFirstClass, (December 12, 2003).

80bJerusalem Post, (January 12 & 14, 2004); Jay Bushinsky, "Arafat's rule a nightmare for Palestinian journalists," Chicago Sun-Times, (March 5, 2004).

81In a September 2003 poll, 75% of Israelis supported targeted killings, Tami Steinmetz Research Institute for Peace at Tel Aviv University.

82Boston Globe, (October 16, 2003).

82aJerusalem Post, (March 14, 2004).

83Haaretz, (October 24, 2003); UPI, (October 21, 2003).

84Haaretz, (December 18, 2003).

85Ben Caspit, "Arafat Connected to Murder of Americans in Gaza," Maariv, (January 4, 2004); "U.S. offers $5M reward for information on Gaza attack," Associated Press, (February 5, 2004).

85a“U.S. calls off Gaza water projects over convoy bombing,” AP, (May 7, 2004)

86Associated Press; Jerusalem Post; New York Post, (March 16, 2004); CNN.com (March 25, 2004).

87Amnesty International, Press Release, (March 24, 2004).

88Itamar Marcus, “Ask for Death,” The Review, (March 2003).

89Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, (June 18, 2002).

90Jerusalem Post, (December 25, 2003).

91Jerusalem Post, (March 15, 2004).

92Associated Press, (March 1, 2004).

93London Daily Telegraph, (March 15, 2004).

94Richard Sale, "Hamas history tied to Israel," UPI (June 18, 2002).

95Ze'ev Schiff and Ehud Ya'ari, Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising-- Israel's Third Front. NY: Simon and Schuster, 1990, pp. 227-239.

96Avraham Burg, A Letter to My Palestinian Friends, Forward, (September 26, 2003).

97Voice of America, (May 15, 2004).

98See, for example, Washington Post, (May 19, 2004).

That's very nice but no one said “Israel is illegally, and without justification, destroying Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip.”

 

Your "myths and facts" don't hold any weight with me.

 

Yes, Israel are correct to go about stopping terrorism but, at this critical time when there has been a short period of peace and during talks with Egypt to block off the border, Israel commit an act of aggression and, to me, this is being done to provoke Palestinian violence so Israel can say "I told you we need to block the border!".

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

OK, I propose a new unwritten rule. If your response to a post is going to be shorter than the post you're responding to, then EDIT DOWN THE QUOTED POST.

 

Example:

 

BAD

 

“Israel is illegally, and without justification, destroying Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip.”

FACT

The Palestinian Authority has repeatedly made commitments to stop terror against Israel. In the most recent agreement, the road map, the PA agreed to “declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.” To date, the PA has not fulfilled this commitment and, as recently as May 15, 2004, Yasser Arafat called on Palestinians to “find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God.”97

In Gaza, terrorists have acted with impunity since the PA was created. They intentionally hide in refugee camps and elsewhere among the civilian population. They do so knowing that Israel will make every effort to avoid attacking them out of concern for innocent lives. The civilian population puts itself at risk, however, by allowing the terrorists to use them as shields.

When it comes to homes that Israeli security forces have demolished, they are not chosen at random. These dwellings are used by terrorists as hideouts, bomb factories, and sniper and ambush sites. Buildings near the Egyptian border are used by terrorists to conceal tunnels that allow them to smuggle arms, explosives and other terrorists into Gaza for the express purpose of killing Israelis. The government of Egypt, which could stop the smuggling and provocation immediately, refuses to do so.

As is the case in fighting terrorism generally, the question that must be asked about Israel's decision to demolish homes is: What alternatives are open to Israel? If the Palestinian authorities were doing their jobs, and fulfilling their promises, the terrorists would be in jail, the bomb factories, closed, and the tunnels filled in. Since they are not, Israel must find a way to protect its citizens, and security forces have concluded that demolitions are the most effective tool.

Unlike the PA, Israel is governed by the rule of law, and even the decision to demolish homes is subject to review by its judiciary. When terrorists fire at Israeli soldiers or civilians from residential buildings or activate roadside charges from orchards and fields, military necessity dictates the demolition of these locations and international law recognizes them as legitimate targets. Israel’s Supreme Court, the most independent judicial body in the Middle East, has ruled the army’s actions are legal.

Innocent lives have been lost during Israeli operations. As the United States has discovered in fighting an urban war against anti-American insurgents in Iraq, it is virtually impossible to engage gunmen in populated areas and avoid civilian casualties. Like the U.S. army in Iraq, Israeli forces are defending themselves and seeking to minimize collateral damage.

Reports about Palestinians being hurt describe them being in the midst of gun battles.98 If Palestinians are shooting at Israeli soldiers, then clearly the Israelis are not attacking innocent civilians. And the media never bothers to ask a more fundamental question; that is, why do any of the Palestinians in Gaza have guns to shoot at the Israelis in the first place? Again, according to agreements the Palestinians signed, the only people entitled to have weapons are the police, and the PA is obligated to confiscate all illegal weapons.

In the course of Israel’s operations, it is tragic that civilians sometimes suffer. Rather than blame Israel, however, the Palestinians should demand the democratic election of new leaders who will dismantle the terrorist networks so that Israel has no need to take defensive measures.

Notes

1New York Times, (December 14, 1987).

2UPI, (December 9, 1987).

3Al-Hamishmar, (December 6, 1991); B'Tselem.

4Wall Street Journal, (February 21, 1990).

5Near East Report, (August 5, 1991).

6Baghdad Voice of the PLO, (May 12, 1989).

7New York Times, (October 24, 1989).

8Al-Mussawar, (January 19, 1990).

9Wall Street Journal, (February 21, 1990).

10Radio Monte Carlo, (October 23, 1990).

11Jerusalem Post, (September 14, 1991).

12Jerusalem Post, (July 6 and October 5, 1991).

13Near East Report, Year End Reports, (1991-1993).

14The New Republic, (November 23, 1992).

15New York Times, (June 12, 1991).

16Daoud Kuttab, "A Profile of the Stonethrowers," Journal of Palestine Studies, (Spring 1988), p. 15.

17AP, (October 10, 2001).

18Jerusalem Post, (March 4, 2001).

19Conclusion of the Mitchell Report, (May 4, 2001).

20Quoted in Sharm El-Sheikh Fact-Finding Committee First Statement of the Government of Israel, Israeli Foreign Ministry, (December 28, 2000).

21Ibid.

22"An Engineered Tragedy: Statistical Analysis of Casualties in the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict, September 2000-June 2002," International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, (June 2002).

23Israel Defense Forces.

24Jerusalem Post, (February 22, 2001).

25Ha'aretz, (March 1, 2001).

26Near East Report, (March 5, 2001).

27Almazen [Kuwait], (June 20, 2002).

28Jerusalem Report, (February 25, 2002); ; Ma'ariv, (July 31, 2002); Israel Defense Forces.

29Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (October 8, 2001).

30Jerusalem Report, (May 21, 2001).

31CNN, Israel Defense Forces, Jerusalem Post, (November 28, 2000); Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (March 21, 2002).

32 James Fallows, "Who Shot Mohammed al-Dura?" The Atlantic Monthly, (June 2003).

33Quoted in the Jerusalem Post, (April 1, 2001).

34Washington Post, (June 17, 2001)

35Letter from George Mitchell and Warren Rudman to ADL Director Abraham Foxman, (May 11, 2001).

36Briefing by Major General Giora Eiland, Head of the IDF Operation Branch, to the Foreign Press Association, Jerusalem, (May 20, 2001).

37State Department Briefing, (April 17, 2001)

38Time, (April 19, 2001)

39Collin Powell, My American Journey, (NY: Random House, 1995), p. 434.

40Washington Post, (June 28, 1993).

41CNN, (July 16, 2002).

42Ha'aretz, (February 11, 2001).

43Al-Watan [Kuwait], (June 7, 2002).

44Jerusalem Post, (July 21, 2002 and February 5, 2003) and U.S. Department of State.

45Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (June 11, 2002).

46Foreign Report, (July 26, 2001).

47Washington Post, (August 15, 2001).

48Jerusalem Post, (August 2, 2001).

49Reuters, (August 9, 2001).

50Washington Post, (September 14 and 18, 2001).

51CNN, (November 4, 2002).

52Fox News, (August 3, 2001).

53RonaldReagan.com, Washington Post and other news sources.

54Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (August 30, 2001).

55Jerusalem Post, (August 10, 2001).

56Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (November 30, 2001).

57News Conference, (September 12, 2001).

58Jerusalem Post, (September 10, 2001).

59Washington Post, (September 7, 2001).

60Michael Oren, "Palestinians Cheer Carnage," Wall Street Journal, (August 7, 2002).

61Jerusalem Post, (August 24, 2001).

62Jerusalem Post, (April 25, 2002).

63Jerusalem Post, (April 28, 2002); Forward, (June 28, 2002); MSNBC, (July 31, 2002).

64New York Post, (May 3, 2002).

65Jerusalem Report, (December 30, 2002).

66New York Times, (April 20, 2002).

67Washington Post, (April 26, 2002).

68Israeli Foreign Ministry

69Washington Post, (January 31, 2002).

70Israeli Foreign Ministry

71“Bomb found in Red Crescent Ambulance,” Ha’aretz, (June 12, 2002).

72Jewish Telegraphic Agency, (June 30, 2002).

72aMargot Dudkevitch, "Palestinian Transported Bomb Materials in Ambulances," Jerusalem Post, (December 11, 2003).

73Ha'aretz, (November 28, 2002).

73aMaariv, (October 14, 2003).

74Washington Times, (February 20, 2003).

75"Blackmailing Young Women into Suicide Terrorism," Israeli Foreign Ministry, (February 12, 2003).

76Christian Science Monitor, (April 02, 2003).

77Jerusalem Post, (June 26, 2003).

78Washington Post, (March 17, 2003).

79OregonLive.com, (March 18, 2003).

80Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2002, The State Department, March 31, 2003; B'tselem, Amnesty International, January-December 2002; Jerusalem Post, (August 25, 2002).

80aNewsFirstClass, (December 12, 2003).

80bJerusalem Post, (January 12 & 14, 2004); Jay Bushinsky, "Arafat's rule a nightmare for Palestinian journalists," Chicago Sun-Times, (March 5, 2004).

81In a September 2003 poll, 75% of Israelis supported targeted killings, Tami Steinmetz Research Institute for Peace at Tel Aviv University.

82Boston Globe, (October 16, 2003).

82aJerusalem Post, (March 14, 2004).

83Haaretz, (October 24, 2003); UPI, (October 21, 2003).

84Haaretz, (December 18, 2003).

85Ben Caspit, "Arafat Connected to Murder of Americans in Gaza," Maariv, (January 4, 2004); "U.S. offers $5M reward for information on Gaza attack," Associated Press, (February 5, 2004).

85a“U.S. calls off Gaza water projects over convoy bombing,” AP, (May 7, 2004)

86Associated Press; Jerusalem Post; New York Post, (March 16, 2004); CNN.com (March 25, 2004).

87Amnesty International, Press Release, (March 24, 2004).

88Itamar Marcus, “Ask for Death,” The Review, (March 2003).

89Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, (June 18, 2002).

90Jerusalem Post, (December 25, 2003).

91Jerusalem Post, (March 15, 2004).

92Associated Press, (March 1, 2004).

93London Daily Telegraph, (March 15, 2004).

94Richard Sale, "Hamas history tied to Israel," UPI (June 18, 2002).

95Ze'ev Schiff and Ehud Ya'ari, Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising-- Israel's Third Front. NY: Simon and Schuster, 1990, pp. 227-239.

96Avraham Burg, A Letter to My Palestinian Friends, Forward, (September 26, 2003).

97Voice of America, (May 15, 2004).

98See, for example, Washington Post, (May 19, 2004).

 

U R St00pid.

 

GOOD

 

MYTH

“Israel is illegally, and without justification, destroying Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip.”

FACT...

 

U R the SUQ.

 

I'm sorry to be forcing my opinions on you all -- back to your Jew-hatin' discussion...

[Vyce 0]

Your facts don't hold any weight with me.

Edited for accuracy.

[Guest Cerebus]

Ignoring the useless, pointless, and utterly illinformed "debate" in this thread I will make one point.

 

Throughout the world 98-99% of people who take up issue with this problem are either "Pro-Israel" or "Anti-Israel." There are virtually no, people who are "Pro-Palestinian."

 

The fact is nobody gives a flying fuck about the Palestinians. The Israelis don't, the Arabs don't, the UN doesn't, the US doesn't, the Israeli supporters don't, the leftist anti-Zionists don't.

 

I won't bother with the Pro-Israeli crowd (for the most part, they don't even pretend to give a damn) but here's a few fun fact those left wing fucks and those tin-pot Arab dictators who claim to champion the Palestinians don't ever mention.

 

There are 360,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. They have absolutely no voice in the political process of Lebanon, they are not allowed to be employed on anything but the most meaningless jobs, they are not allowed to have visas that would permit them to work some place else, they are harassed on a daily basis by the rest of the population. They are treated as poorly, if not more so, than those in the West Bank and Gaza.

 

In 1993, Bethlehem (the birthplace of our Lord) was 60% Christian. After 8 years of Palestinian control it is now barely 30% and dropping even more since the start of the Intifadah.

 

The UNRWA has made a special definition for Palestinian refugees. Normally, the definition for a refugee by the UNHCR is a person who has fled their country. The UNRWA that any descendents of Palestinians (and Palestinians only) would be considered "refugees." There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinans spread throughout the Arab world, with almost none of them intergrated into the country well over 50 years after thier first expulsion. And the UN is more than happy to preptuate this humiliation and supression of my people by labelling them all as refugees.

 

How often will you hear about this stuff on the UC Berkley campus or by the Edward Said professors of the world? How dare these hypocrite assclowns claim solidarity with my people? How dare they use my people as an excuse to spout off thier anti-American and, often times, anti-semetic garbage. If you want to be anti-Israeli, fine. Just don't exploit my people the same way your European and Arab buddies do.

 

Man, I hate people.

[The Mandarin 0]

sealing off the casbah

Fools. They're not suposed to seal off the casbah, they're supposed to rock it.

 

ETA: I guess I'm a little late.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..assholes.

[Guest MikeSC]

Ignoring the useless, pointless, and utterly illinformed "debate" in this thread I will make one point.

 

Throughout the world 98-99% of people who take up issue with this problem are either "Pro-Israel" or "Anti-Israel." There are virtually no, people who are "Pro-Palestinian."

 

The fact is nobody gives a flying fuck about the Palestinians. The Israelis don't, the Arabs don't, the UN doesn't, the US doesn't, the Israeli supporters don't, the leftist anti-Zionists don't.

 

I won't bother with the Pro-Israeli crowd (for the most part, they don't even pretend to give a damn) but here's a few fun fact those left wing fucks and those tin-pot Arab dictators who claim to champion the Palestinians don't ever mention.

 

There are 360,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. They have absolutely no voice in the political process of Lebanon, they are not allowed to be employed on anything but the most meaningless jobs, they are not allowed to have visas that would permit them to work some place else, they are harassed on a daily basis by the rest of the population. They are treated as poorly, if not more so, than those in the West Bank and Gaza.

 

In 1993, Bethlehem (the birthplace of our Lord) was 60% Christian. After 8 years of Palestinian control it is now barely 30% and dropping even more since the start of the Intifadah.

 

The UNRWA has made a special definition for Palestinian refugees. Normally, the definition for a refugee by the UNHCR is a person who has fled their country. The UNRWA that any descendents of Palestinians (and Palestinians only) would be considered "refugees." There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinans spread throughout the Arab world, with almost none of them intergrated into the country well over 50 years after thier first expulsion. And the UN is more than happy to preptuate this humiliation and supression of my people by labelling them all as refugees.

 

How often will you hear about this stuff on the UC Berkley campus or by the Edward Said professors of the world? How dare these hypocrite assclowns claim solidarity with my people? How dare they use my people as an excuse to spout off thier anti-American and, often times, anti-semetic garbage. If you want to be anti-Israeli, fine. Just don't exploit my people the same way your European and Arab buddies do.

 

Man, I hate people.

That's the way it is. Sadly, your people are viewed as being more valuable as perpetual victims to be used in the war against Israel. The Arab states --- and you are 100% correct --- have NEVER given two damns about Palestine (hell, Egypt and Arabia were pushing Arafat BIG-TIME to reject the peace treaty Barak offered).

 

And, until they manage to completely divorce Arafat from their political equation, I wouldn't CONSIDER giving them a chance. That's the problem the US has --- even if Israel thoroughly pisses us off --- they're STILL better than any group headed by Arafat.

 

What I want to know is --- WHY AREN'T THE PALESTINIANS ANGRY AT THE OTHER ARABS?

 

Hell, like you said, they have it WORSE elsewhere. Why is Israel the target of the Palestinians' ire when the rage should be directed at other, far more suitable targets?

-=Mike

[Guest Hero to all Children]

Vyce Posted on Jun 25 2004, 07:26 PM

  QUOTE (INXS @ Jun 25 2004, 11:36 AM)

Your facts don't hold any weight with me.

 

Edited for accuracy.

 

 

I think it's time for a Homer Simpson quote.

 

"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!"

 

And I'm not even trying to be silly. Seriously contemplate this truism. We've all been throwing facts around like chimps their shit, accusing each other of reactionaly behaviour or lacking common sense. "A political axe to grind" and other such sayings.

 

Really, we all have these facts. We all have the truth. One rather ugly way of putting it is saying that "six million Jews didn't die in the holocaust." Which is absolutely true, six million died and another six million worldwide survived.

 

 

Just take this dispute as a most glorious example of facts (read: chimp shit):

No one here is seriously arguing that Israel is bulldozing Palestinian homes in retaliation. It's a bit hard to ignore them. Yet people decide to argue how legitimate such an act is/was/would be. And the beautiful thing is that they all use the same facts to support their ideas.

 

So the next time someone says "You just don't want to see the facts!" they actually mean "You just don't want to see the facts MY WAY AND I AM OBVIOUSLY RIGHT!"

 

 

And aside of that I officially withdraw myself from all Anti-pro-bono-U2-Israel discussions, it's no fun anymore. It's like arguing with a brick wall. No matter how good your point is your opponent will still be mostly red, wide and X-hundred pounds heavy. ... Okay, maybe I forgot how the saying goes but you really get the idea. It's pointless and I'm sure that neither Yassir or Ariel are reading TSM for political and moral input on their agenda.

[Guest MikeSC]

And aside of that I officially withdraw myself from all Anti-pro-bono-U2-Israel discussions, it's no fun anymore. It's like arguing with a brick wall. No matter how good your point is your opponent will still be mostly red, wide and X-hundred pounds heavy. ... Okay, maybe I forgot how the saying goes but you really get the idea. It's pointless and I'm sure that neither Yassir or Ariel are reading TSM for political and moral input on their agenda.

Yassir should.

-=Mike

[Art Sandusky 0]

In 1993, Bethlehem (the birthplace of EDIT: my Lord) was 60% Christian. After 8 years of Palestinian control it is now barely 30% and dropping even more since the start of the Intifadah.

 

Waah?

[Guest MikeSC]

In 1993, Bethlehem (the birthplace of EDIT: my Lord) was 60% Christian. After 8 years of Palestinian control it is now barely 30% and dropping even more since the start of the Intifadah.

 

Waah?

Shockingly, Arafat isn't fond of religious tolerance.

-=Mike

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

In 1993, Bethlehem (the birthplace of EDIT: my Lord) was 60% Christian. After 8 years of Palestinian control it is now barely 30% and dropping even more since the start of the Intifadah.

 

Waah?

Shockingly, Arafat isn't fond of religious tolerance.

-=Mike

granted, Christians probably didn't like living there under Palestinean rule either

[Guest MikeSC]

In 1993, Bethlehem (the birthplace of EDIT: my Lord) was 60% Christian. After 8 years of Palestinian control it is now barely 30% and dropping even more since the start of the Intifadah.

 

Waah?

Shockingly, Arafat isn't fond of religious tolerance.

-=Mike

granted, Christians probably didn't like living there under Palestinean rule either

I'm sure Arafat gave them a nice reason to not like it.

-=Mike

[Guest Cerebus]

Waah?

The increasing Islamicization of Palestine was a natural occurance since Arafat is in bed with so many radical Islamicsits who are also running his propaganda machine (which includes education by the way) along with his security forces. This vile brand is (surprise) anything but tolerant. Between the lockdowns, bad economy, and violence fighting with the Israelis most Christians are simply leaving. For instance, my grandfather's brother's family moved to Italy after staying in Bethlehem since before 1947. (Here's a source btw it was more along the lines of 40% not 30% though)

 

WHY AREN'T THE PALESTINIANS ANGRY AT THE OTHER ARABS?

 

Mike, you of all people should know "TEH MEDIA~!" almost never shows more than half of an issue, hell we're lucky if they show 10-20% of it. Simply because their struggles aren't plastered on the front page of the NYT every day, doesn't mean fights against thier "hosts" don't go on. For the most part they are either surpressed in ways that would make the Israelis blush or simply kept sedated with false promises about the "Right of Return."