CanadianChris Posted August 10, 2004 Report Posted August 10, 2004 Who cares if he won 30 games he had an awesome team in front of him. Does Roberto Luongo's record make him a worse goalie then Dan Cloutier? NO. But by your logic Cloutier has more wins so he's better... but I'm the retard Any average goalie with Vancouver is gonna get 30 wins based on the team alone, but were not talking about winning 30 games were talking about winning a Stanley Cup and Dan Cloutier is far to average to win a Stanley Cup. I never said that Cloots is great because of his record. But ur blind if u think an average goalie can win 30 games 3 years in a row. Only him and Broduer have done this, no other goalie on elite teams have. The Cancucks havn't been the second best team in teh past three years. Average? Well, he's certainly not elite (keep in mind that only forty-some goalies make the official stats each season): - In 2001-02 and 2002-03, Cloutier was LAST in save percentage among all goalies with 30+ wins, and in the bottom quarter of that group in GAA (16 goalies in 01/02, 11 in 02/03). - He was 19th overall in GAA and 33rd in save % in 2001-02; 16th and 24th in 2002-03. - Not coincidentally, the Canucks led the league in goals for in 2001-02, and were second in the league in 2002-03. - Cloutier was 6th in save % among the 9 goalies this past season who had 30+ wins, and tied for 7th in GAA. Only two of those 9 teams scored more goals than Vancouver. (He was 17th in GAA and 18th in save % overall.) What does all this add up to? Awesome offense, good defense, woefully average goaltender.
the max Posted August 10, 2004 Author Report Posted August 10, 2004 http://tsn.ca/news_story.asp?ID=94320&hubName=main FUCK Fuck Bruins management up their stupid fucking asses. Losses this off-season: Mike Knuble, Brian Rolston, Michael Nylander Offers not tendered: Glen Murray, Dan McGillis, Travis Green, Andy Delmore, Michael Grosek, Rob Zamuner Kept: Hal Gill, Sergei Samsonov, Sergei Gonchar. Gill should have been able to fucking walk away. Signed: TOM FUCKING FITZGERALD Now, the lines look like.... Sammy/Joe/??? ???/Bergeron/??? Axelsson/???/LaPointe ???/???/Fitzgerald This team is making me fucking crazy.
Lightning Flik Posted August 11, 2004 Report Posted August 11, 2004 I'm going to be very surprised if the Bruins turn out better than my Edmonton Oilers... Ever think of converting to a Canadian team? At least then you'll know why your team isn't as great as they should be (Oilers). And then can be utterly surprised when they do so well (Flames).
HarleyQuinn Posted August 11, 2004 Report Posted August 11, 2004 *just shakes head at the stupidity of the Bruins management* And we made the bloody playoffs last year too, jeez. All ya had to do was improve on last year's team!
the max Posted August 11, 2004 Author Report Posted August 11, 2004 I'm a Senators fan, and enjoy the Flames and Oilers for different reasons. I hate Montreal and Toronto and am indifferent towards Vancouver. Other teams I'm thinking of bandwagon hopping: 1- Atlanta Thrashers 2- Columbus Blue Jackets 3- Phoenix Coyotes I'm sort of a Florida Panthers fan, but that comes from getting 60-65 games of theirs on FSN each year. Fucking Bruins.
Red Baron Posted August 12, 2004 Report Posted August 12, 2004 No matter what Boston does, Montreal will be there to knock them out in the first round. Then lose in the second round, which the team will make it to the finals.
nl5xsk1 Posted August 12, 2004 Report Posted August 12, 2004 Actually, Redbaron, the Bruins team - as they're presently constructed - wouldn't even come close to making the playoffs. Even with Thornton/Samsonov/Bergeron they still don't have close to 2 scoring lines. Their defense is scary thin. And the team's bright spot is a second year goalie. If there's a season next year, the B's will be lucky to finish above the Sabres in the Northeast. /the only bright spot is the amount of money I'll save by not having to go to a single B's game this season.
starvenger Posted August 12, 2004 Report Posted August 12, 2004 Even with Thornton/Samsonov/Bergeron they still don't have close to 2 scoring lines. They don't need 2 scoring lines - they got Tom Fitzgerald, remember? Actually, you know what's scary? I think that by "losing" Fitzgerald, the Leafs' average age probably JUMPED about 5 years. I don't mind a veteran team (unless Chelios is on it) but they're starting to get to the point where Pat Quinn looks like a youngster...
Red Baron Posted August 12, 2004 Report Posted August 12, 2004 I think Pat Quinn might come out of retirement, and actually play for the Leafs. We haven't seen a player/coach in a long time in Hockey.
starvenger Posted August 12, 2004 Report Posted August 12, 2004 I think Pat Quinn might come out of retirement, and actually play for the Leafs. We haven't seen a player/coach in a long time in Hockey. I think that Ron Francis could do it, personally...
cue_meanie Posted August 12, 2004 Report Posted August 12, 2004 In the AHL, did you see him in the playoffs. Calle Johannson was a better pickup, and he isn't good by any means.
Der Kommissar Posted August 12, 2004 Report Posted August 12, 2004 Stanley Cup odds: Detroit Red Wings 7-1 Colorado Avalanche 8-1 Ottawa Senators 8-1 New Jersey Devils 10-1 Tampa Bay Lightning 10-1 Toronto Maple Leafs 10-1 Philadelphia Flyers 10-1 Vancouver Canucks 12-1 Dallas Stars 12-1 Boston Bruins 12-1 San Jose Sharks 12-1 St Louis Blues 20-1 Calgary Flames 25-1 Los Angeles Kings 35-1 Minnesota Wild 35-1 Montreal Canadiens 35-1 Atlanta Thrashers 40-1 Anaheim Mighty Ducks 50-1 Columbus Blue Jackets 50-1 Edmonton Oilers 50-1 Nashville Predators 50-1 New York Islanders 50-1 Buffalo Sabres 60-1 Florida Panthers 60-1 New York Rangers 60-1 Carolina Hurricanes 100-1 Chicago Blackhawks 100-1 Phoenix Coyotes 100-1 Washington Capitals 100-1 Pittsburgh Penguins 300-1 You Boston fans should perk up. Despite all your losses, you are still somehow are 12 to 1 favourites to win the Cup.
starvenger Posted August 12, 2004 Report Posted August 12, 2004 Don't ask me why, but I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on the Dogs at 100-1...
the max Posted August 12, 2004 Author Report Posted August 12, 2004 ... Who makes these fucking odds? The Bruins are 12-1 odds to win the Cup? Based on what?!
Guest Rrrsh Posted August 13, 2004 Report Posted August 13, 2004 Who cares if he won 30 games he had an awesome team in front of him. Does Roberto Luongo's record make him a worse goalie then Dan Cloutier? NO. But by your logic Cloutier has more wins so he's better... but I'm the retard Any average goalie with Vancouver is gonna get 30 wins based on the team alone, but were not talking about winning 30 games were talking about winning a Stanley Cup and Dan Cloutier is far to average to win a Stanley Cup. I never said that Cloots is great because of his record. But ur blind if u think an average goalie can win 30 games 3 years in a row. Only him and Broduer have done this, no other goalie on elite teams have. The Cancucks havn't been the second best team in teh past three years. Average? Well, he's certainly not elite (keep in mind that only forty-some goalies make the official stats each season): - In 2001-02 and 2002-03, Cloutier was LAST in save percentage among all goalies with 30+ wins, and in the bottom quarter of that group in GAA (16 goalies in 01/02, 11 in 02/03). - He was 19th overall in GAA and 33rd in save % in 2001-02; 16th and 24th in 2002-03. - Not coincidentally, the Canucks led the league in goals for in 2001-02, and were second in the league in 2002-03. - Cloutier was 6th in save % among the 9 goalies this past season who had 30+ wins, and tied for 7th in GAA. Only two of those 9 teams scored more goals than Vancouver. (He was 17th in GAA and 18th in save % overall.) What does all this add up to? Awesome offense, good defense, woefully average goaltender. I have said this a bunch of times, anybody can throw random stats out there to makie him look bad. I could do the same to make him look good, but I wont. Stats judge teams, not goalies.
stahl Posted August 13, 2004 Report Posted August 13, 2004 Stats judge teams, not goalies. Thats wrong, they do a bit of both. If Brodeur played for an offensive minded team his GAA and Save Percentage would be slightly higher. Cloutier plays on a good team but has average goalie stats. Compare Cloutiers stats with Toronto's Ed Belfour. Both are offensive minded teams but Eddie beats Cloutier on almost ever catagory including the non catagorized "able to make the big save when it counts" stat. That stat is the most important. Cloutier has subpar stats, and the inablity to be a "money" goalie and make the big save to keep his team in the game.
Guest Rrrsh Posted August 13, 2004 Report Posted August 13, 2004 Belfour makes way more than Cloots and is a top 5 goalie. I never compared the two. Cloots is very streaky. Everybody who watches him says he lets in the odd soft one and makes lot of big save. Cloots makes plenty of big saves, he just needs to be a little more consitant.
CanadianChris Posted August 13, 2004 Report Posted August 13, 2004 Who cares if he won 30 games he had an awesome team in front of him. Does Roberto Luongo's record make him a worse goalie then Dan Cloutier? NO. But by your logic Cloutier has more wins so he's better... but I'm the retard Any average goalie with Vancouver is gonna get 30 wins based on the team alone, but were not talking about winning 30 games were talking about winning a Stanley Cup and Dan Cloutier is far to average to win a Stanley Cup. I never said that Cloots is great because of his record. But ur blind if u think an average goalie can win 30 games 3 years in a row. Only him and Broduer have done this, no other goalie on elite teams have. The Cancucks havn't been the second best team in teh past three years. Average? Well, he's certainly not elite (keep in mind that only forty-some goalies make the official stats each season): - In 2001-02 and 2002-03, Cloutier was LAST in save percentage among all goalies with 30+ wins, and in the bottom quarter of that group in GAA (16 goalies in 01/02, 11 in 02/03). - He was 19th overall in GAA and 33rd in save % in 2001-02; 16th and 24th in 2002-03. - Not coincidentally, the Canucks led the league in goals for in 2001-02, and were second in the league in 2002-03. - Cloutier was 6th in save % among the 9 goalies this past season who had 30+ wins, and tied for 7th in GAA. Only two of those 9 teams scored more goals than Vancouver. (He was 17th in GAA and 18th in save % overall.) What does all this add up to? Awesome offense, good defense, woefully average goaltender. I have said this a bunch of times, anybody can throw random stats out there to makie him look bad. I could do the same to make him look good, but I wont. Stats judge teams, not goalies. OK, prove it. Make him look good.
stahl Posted August 13, 2004 Report Posted August 13, 2004 Cloots makes plenty of big saves, he just needs to be a little more consitant. This is the main problem I think that people are debating with you. Because of his inconsistancy, he is viewed as a second rate goalie and not a proven number 1 that can take his team all the way.
CanadianChris Posted August 13, 2004 Report Posted August 13, 2004 Today's tidbits (from TSN): - Scott Niedermayer got $7 mil a year awarded to him in arbitration, a record amount. - Sharks agreed to terms with G Evgeni Nabokov.
Guest Rrrsh Posted August 14, 2004 Report Posted August 14, 2004 Cloots makes plenty of big saves, he just needs to be a little more consitant. This is the main problem I think that people are debating with you. Because of his inconsistancy, he is viewed as a second rate goalie and not a proven number 1 that can take his team all the way. Every goalie has weaknesses. If all people here siad was that he was incosistant, then fine. But their other points aren't true, aren't accurate or irrelavenent.
Guest Rrrsh Posted August 14, 2004 Report Posted August 14, 2004 Who cares if he won 30 games he had an awesome team in front of him. Does Roberto Luongo's record make him a worse goalie then Dan Cloutier? NO. But by your logic Cloutier has more wins so he's better... but I'm the retard Any average goalie with Vancouver is gonna get 30 wins based on the team alone, but were not talking about winning 30 games were talking about winning a Stanley Cup and Dan Cloutier is far to average to win a Stanley Cup. I never said that Cloots is great because of his record. But ur blind if u think an average goalie can win 30 games 3 years in a row. Only him and Broduer have done this, no other goalie on elite teams have. The Cancucks havn't been the second best team in teh past three years. Average? Well, he's certainly not elite (keep in mind that only forty-some goalies make the official stats each season): - In 2001-02 and 2002-03, Cloutier was LAST in save percentage among all goalies with 30+ wins, and in the bottom quarter of that group in GAA (16 goalies in 01/02, 11 in 02/03). - He was 19th overall in GAA and 33rd in save % in 2001-02; 16th and 24th in 2002-03. - Not coincidentally, the Canucks led the league in goals for in 2001-02, and were second in the league in 2002-03. - Cloutier was 6th in save % among the 9 goalies this past season who had 30+ wins, and tied for 7th in GAA. Only two of those 9 teams scored more goals than Vancouver. (He was 17th in GAA and 18th in save % overall.) What does all this add up to? Awesome offense, good defense, woefully average goaltender. I have said this a bunch of times, anybody can throw random stats out there to makie him look bad. I could do the same to make him look good, but I wont. Stats judge teams, not goalies. OK, prove it. Make him look good. For the past three years, he one fo only 2 goalies to win 30 games. He is not a one-hit wonder nad has been consistant. And if you want other stats, all I have to do is point to the three games he played before he got hurt this year in the palyoffs.
CanadianChris Posted August 14, 2004 Report Posted August 14, 2004 Who cares if he won 30 games he had an awesome team in front of him. Does Roberto Luongo's record make him a worse goalie then Dan Cloutier? NO. But by your logic Cloutier has more wins so he's better... but I'm the retard Any average goalie with Vancouver is gonna get 30 wins based on the team alone, but were not talking about winning 30 games were talking about winning a Stanley Cup and Dan Cloutier is far to average to win a Stanley Cup. I never said that Cloots is great because of his record. But ur blind if u think an average goalie can win 30 games 3 years in a row. Only him and Broduer have done this, no other goalie on elite teams have. The Cancucks havn't been the second best team in teh past three years. Average? Well, he's certainly not elite (keep in mind that only forty-some goalies make the official stats each season): - In 2001-02 and 2002-03, Cloutier was LAST in save percentage among all goalies with 30+ wins, and in the bottom quarter of that group in GAA (16 goalies in 01/02, 11 in 02/03). - He was 19th overall in GAA and 33rd in save % in 2001-02; 16th and 24th in 2002-03. - Not coincidentally, the Canucks led the league in goals for in 2001-02, and were second in the league in 2002-03. - Cloutier was 6th in save % among the 9 goalies this past season who had 30+ wins, and tied for 7th in GAA. Only two of those 9 teams scored more goals than Vancouver. (He was 17th in GAA and 18th in save % overall.) What does all this add up to? Awesome offense, good defense, woefully average goaltender. I have said this a bunch of times, anybody can throw random stats out there to makie him look bad. I could do the same to make him look good, but I wont. Stats judge teams, not goalies. OK, prove it. Make him look good. For the past three years, he one fo only 2 goalies to win 30 games. He is not a one-hit wonder nad has been consistant. And if you want other stats, all I have to do is point to the three games he played before he got hurt this year in the palyoffs. That's IT??? Wins are about as meaningful a stat in hockey as they are in baseball when assessing performance...that is to say, not very much. Survey says...everyone else wins this argument.
Guest Rrrsh Posted August 15, 2004 Report Posted August 15, 2004 Who cares if he won 30 games he had an awesome team in front of him. Does Roberto Luongo's record make him a worse goalie then Dan Cloutier? NO. But by your logic Cloutier has more wins so he's better... but I'm the retard Any average goalie with Vancouver is gonna get 30 wins based on the team alone, but were not talking about winning 30 games were talking about winning a Stanley Cup and Dan Cloutier is far to average to win a Stanley Cup. I never said that Cloots is great because of his record. But ur blind if u think an average goalie can win 30 games 3 years in a row. Only him and Broduer have done this, no other goalie on elite teams have. The Cancucks havn't been the second best team in teh past three years. Average? Well, he's certainly not elite (keep in mind that only forty-some goalies make the official stats each season): - In 2001-02 and 2002-03, Cloutier was LAST in save percentage among all goalies with 30+ wins, and in the bottom quarter of that group in GAA (16 goalies in 01/02, 11 in 02/03). - He was 19th overall in GAA and 33rd in save % in 2001-02; 16th and 24th in 2002-03. - Not coincidentally, the Canucks led the league in goals for in 2001-02, and were second in the league in 2002-03. - Cloutier was 6th in save % among the 9 goalies this past season who had 30+ wins, and tied for 7th in GAA. Only two of those 9 teams scored more goals than Vancouver. (He was 17th in GAA and 18th in save % overall.) What does all this add up to? Awesome offense, good defense, woefully average goaltender. I have said this a bunch of times, anybody can throw random stats out there to makie him look bad. I could do the same to make him look good, but I wont. Stats judge teams, not goalies. OK, prove it. Make him look good. For the past three years, he one fo only 2 goalies to win 30 games. He is not a one-hit wonder nad has been consistant. And if you want other stats, all I have to do is point to the three games he played before he got hurt this year in the palyoffs. That's IT??? Wins are about as meaningful a stat in hockey as they are in baseball when assessing performance...that is to say, not very much. Survey says...everyone else wins this argument. What arguement? My arguement is that stats dont tell you how good a goalie is, not that I can manipulate stats they way I like.
CanadianChris Posted August 15, 2004 Report Posted August 15, 2004 Who cares if he won 30 games he had an awesome team in front of him. Does Roberto Luongo's record make him a worse goalie then Dan Cloutier? NO. But by your logic Cloutier has more wins so he's better... but I'm the retard Any average goalie with Vancouver is gonna get 30 wins based on the team alone, but were not talking about winning 30 games were talking about winning a Stanley Cup and Dan Cloutier is far to average to win a Stanley Cup. I never said that Cloots is great because of his record. But ur blind if u think an average goalie can win 30 games 3 years in a row. Only him and Broduer have done this, no other goalie on elite teams have. The Cancucks havn't been the second best team in teh past three years. Average? Well, he's certainly not elite (keep in mind that only forty-some goalies make the official stats each season): - In 2001-02 and 2002-03, Cloutier was LAST in save percentage among all goalies with 30+ wins, and in the bottom quarter of that group in GAA (16 goalies in 01/02, 11 in 02/03). - He was 19th overall in GAA and 33rd in save % in 2001-02; 16th and 24th in 2002-03. - Not coincidentally, the Canucks led the league in goals for in 2001-02, and were second in the league in 2002-03. - Cloutier was 6th in save % among the 9 goalies this past season who had 30+ wins, and tied for 7th in GAA. Only two of those 9 teams scored more goals than Vancouver. (He was 17th in GAA and 18th in save % overall.) What does all this add up to? Awesome offense, good defense, woefully average goaltender. I have said this a bunch of times, anybody can throw random stats out there to makie him look bad. I could do the same to make him look good, but I wont. Stats judge teams, not goalies. OK, prove it. Make him look good. For the past three years, he one fo only 2 goalies to win 30 games. He is not a one-hit wonder nad has been consistant. And if you want other stats, all I have to do is point to the three games he played before he got hurt this year in the palyoffs. That's IT??? Wins are about as meaningful a stat in hockey as they are in baseball when assessing performance...that is to say, not very much. Survey says...everyone else wins this argument. What arguement? My arguement is that stats dont tell you how good a goalie is, not that I can manipulate stats they way I like. I've helpfully bolded the part where you said you could manipulate stats the way you like. Our argument was that Cloutier wasn't a good goalie, and we have no evidence to the contrary...and I'm not using stats, I'm using rankings.
Guest Rrrsh Posted August 15, 2004 Report Posted August 15, 2004 My arguement is that I have watched him and that he is a good goalie. You pointing out stats hasn't proven anything.
CanadianChris Posted August 15, 2004 Report Posted August 15, 2004 My arguement is that I have watched him and that he is a good goalie. You pointing out stats hasn't proven anything. And I've watched him and say he isn't a good goalie. Is that somehow more meaningful to you?
cue_meanie Posted August 15, 2004 Report Posted August 15, 2004 My arguement is that I have watched him and that he is a good goalie. You pointing out stats hasn't proven anything. But you can't even spell argument, but we should somehow take you to be a goalie expert I am a goalie, I've played hockey since I was 5, Im 20 now, that doesn't make me an expert on NHL goalies, obviously but my point is not that Cloutier is bad, im pretty sure if you've read the posts its mostly just saying he's average at best and wont take am to the promised land. And that he doesn't deserve his money, and you keep harping on 30 wins. It means nothing when you play with a team the calibre of the Vancouver Canucks, they probably scored 4-5 goals with those wins, and let me tell you who didn't score those goals... Dan Cloutier.
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